He became sin...???

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R

Roberth

Banned
#801
Oct 3, 2015
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#801
BradC said:
Romans 6:6 Knowing this that our old man s crucified WITH him.....There is no indication that our old man of sin or Adam's sin resided in the members of Christ's body.....
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Look, if you are going to quote Romans 6:6 do it with proper verb tense and use a good version.

Here's the NASB*:

"Our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with...."

Let's be honest with the above quote:

What is "our old self" according to the context?

Answer: "our old self" = "our body of sin"

Now what does "our body of sin" mean? For this I must move to Romans chapter 7 where Paul states the following:

Rom 7:23-24 "I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

"Our body of sin" = "our old self" = "the law of sin...in my members"

So "in Christ" (Christ as the son of man) "our old self", which contained "the law of sin" (our bent, our self-love), was (past tense) crucified with Christ so that "our body of sin" might forever die.

* https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/
 
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Roberth

Banned
#802
Oct 3, 2015
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#802
Roberth said:
So "in Christ" (Christ as the son of man) "our old self", which contained "the law of sin" (our bent, our self-love), was (past tense) crucified with Christ so that "our body of sin" might forever die.
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So my old life from Adam, with its bent-to-self (iniquity), died in Christ Jesus when He was crucified.

Again, God's law demands the death of the sinner. For God to maintain the justice of His own law our old life we share with Adam had to die. And it did in Christ Jesus. Hence "in Christ" the justice of God's law has been legally and ethically fulfilled.

When one accepts what Christ did 2000 years ago he/she moves from under "the curse of the law" to under grace. That is why Paul states,

"But now (having accepted the gospel) we have been delivered from the law, (how so?) having died to what we were held by (i.e., the law)...." Rom 7:6

When did you die? 2000 years ago in Christ. But now you have accepted your death "in Christ" and therefore the law can no longer touch you. Why? As far as the law is concerned your life from Adam died forever. Therefore in Christ you have answered the justice of God's law.

This, friends, is the everlasting gospel. It is this gospel we are to preach to the world for a witness and then the end will come.
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#803
#803
Robert, I didn't wade through all the posts because there's too many pages. Suffice it to say, I have no disagreement with your last two posts. But my question is, what contrary gospel are you saying is being preached? I'm not debating, I was just curious.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#804
#804
VioletReigns said:
Robert, I didn't wade through all the posts because there's too many pages. Suffice it to say, I have no disagreement with your last two posts. But my question is, what contrary gospel are you saying is being preached? I'm not debating, I was just curious.
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Basically our friend thinks Jesus was born with sin instead of taking our sin upon the Cross as the scriptures clearly teach.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#805
Jul 31, 2013
38,120
13,681
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#805
Mitspa said:
Basically our friend thinks Jesus was born with sin instead of taking our sin upon the Cross as the scriptures clearly teach.
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hasn't read

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin,
so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
(1 Corinthians 5:21)

​
? ​
 
B

BradC

Guest
#806
#806
posthuman said:

hasn't read

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin,
so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
(1 Corinthians 5:21)

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? ​
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Every single word of that verse is exactly to the point, 'made him to be sin who knew no sin'. This quote is not talking about Jesus being made to be sin in the womb but rather on the cross. This was done so that when we believe and are placed in Christ we might become the righteousness of God in Him. We have to be placed in Christ and this only happens when we believe at a specific point in time and at that moment through the power and operation of God we are placed in Christ through the new birth. Translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son, for our life is dead and we are hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and we are complete in him (Col 2:10).
 
B

BradC

Guest
#807
#807
Roberth said:
So my old life from Adam, with its bent-to-self (iniquity), died in Christ Jesus when He was crucified.

Again, God's law demands the death of the sinner. For God to maintain the justice of His own law our old life we share with Adam had to die. And it did in Christ Jesus. Hence "in Christ" the justice of God's law has been legally and ethically fulfilled.

When one accepts what Christ did 2000 years ago he/she moves from under "the curse of the law" to under grace. That is why Paul states,

"But now (having accepted the gospel) we have been delivered from the law, (how so?) having died to what we were held by (i.e., the law)...." Rom 7:6

When did you die? 2000 years ago in Christ. But now you have accepted your death "in Christ" and therefore the law can no longer touch you. Why? As far as the law is concerned your life from Adam died forever. Therefore in Christ you have answered the justice of God's law.

This, friends, is the everlasting gospel. It is this gospel we are to preach to the world for a witness and then the end will come.
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Christ crucified Adam and the law of sin which includes every man who is born into this world with the sin of Adam. This is positionally true and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified but we do not receive the benefits of what Christ did for us until we believe in our heart. At that moment when we believe we are justified from all sin and made absolutely new as a new creature in Christ. Our names are written in the Lamb's book of life (Rev 21:27, 13:18). Christ crucified the old sin nature of Adam but he did not eradicate it from within our members and that will not happen until we received our new bodies like unto his glorified body. We put off the old and put on the new, from that which is earthy and corruptible unto that which is heavenly and incorruptible. Now we must do that by faith and put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh (Rom 13:14) because Christ died, was buried and rose again. When we shall wee him and are face to face with him we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is (1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:51,52, Phil 3:20,21).
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#808
Oct 3, 2015
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#808
VioletReigns said:
....I have no disagreement with your last two posts. But my question is, what contrary gospel are you saying is being preached? I'm not debating, I was just curious.
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Please go to Romans 3:31

This is Young's Literal Translation:

"Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law."

Now modern translations drop the definite article "the" that comes before the word "faith".

Let me show you:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." NKJV

The problem with dropping the definite article "the" is it changes the meaning. In other words it seems Paul is asking does the faith of the believer make void God's law? Then Paul says, "no", the believer establishes the law. That means in order to be justified by faith one must fulfill the law, but that contradicts the whole chapter of Romans 3!

Then how should we view verse 31? By placing the definite article "the" before "faith".

"Do we then make void the law through the faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

"The faith" doesn't refers to the believer's faith. "The faith" refers to Christ, the object of the believer's faith!

Now we can better understand Paul's question. He is asking does belief in "the faith" (Christ) make void the law? Paul's answer: No! Why? Because Christ established the law in His doing & dying.

How so?

Again, the law demands two things:

1] Obey & live

2] Disobey & die

Romans 6:6 & 7:4 is dealing with # 2, the justice of God's law. The law demands the death of the sinner, period. If God did away with His law (made it void) then Christ, as the our corporate man, need not have died.

So the doctrine of justification by faith doesn't make void God's law because "in Christ's" dying the law has been legally established/fulfilled because "when One died, all died". Or, as Romans 7:4 states, "we also died to the law (it demanded our death) in the body of Christ".

So the true gospel fulfills the law, both demands # 1 and # 2. That is, "in Christ Jesus" the law of God has been legally fulfilled and this gave Christ the legal right to save you and me from under law to under grace.
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#809
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#809
posthuman said:

hasn't read

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin,
so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
(1 Corinthians 5:21)

​

​
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You can't establish truth by first going to the unclear, vague verses. You must first go to the clear, unmistakable verses then you'll know better how to interpret the ones not as clear. Otherwise you will make the Bible contradict itself.

If you first go to Romans 6:6/7:4 then you'll understand 1 Cor 5:21.

Here's what it means: God the Father made Christ as the son of man to be sin, who as God the Son knew no sin....
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#810
Oct 3, 2015
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#810
BradC said:
Christ crucified Adam and the law of sin which includes every man who is born into this world with the sin of Adam.
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1] We aren't born guilty of Adam's sin: We are born condemned because we share Adam's life. Big difference. Only when we sin Adam's sin to we become guilty of his sin.

2] Christ didn't crucify himself: Adam's life, which we all share, died with Christ as the son of man. That shared life included "the law of sin" which ever man is born with....
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#813
#813
Roberth said:
That's a Catholic doctrine. You must be Catholic!
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Yes everyone who believes the bible and knows that Christ was sinless, spirit, soul and body is Catholic? Can you come up with something new?
 
R

Roberth

Banned
#815
Oct 3, 2015
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#815
Anyway, I said about all I can say. As long as some of you refuse to acknowledge that our life from Adam died in Christ (as stated in Rom 6:6/7:4) it's pointless go on.

Now what?

I have other topics you can debate with me. Shall I start another thread, Mitspa, seeing you started this one, or can we continue here on other subjects?

Besides debating on the gospel I've been debating on Job.

See: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/125653-job-he-blameless-b-vile.html

However, I have two other topics that I'd like to debate:

1] The Sabbath as linked to the gospel, not the law

or

2] Why the Papacy is anti-Christ.





 
R

Roberth

Banned
#816
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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#816
Mitspa said:
Yes everyone who believes the bible and knows that Christ was sinless, spirit, soul and body is Catholic? Can you come up with something new?
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Hey, I was attacking him because Bradc said we are born guilty of Adam's sin.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#817
#817
Start a thread ...but I doubt anyone will listen to your points since you have made clear on this thread that you don't submit to the clear and evident Word Of God
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
#819
Feb 21, 2014
70,925
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#819
Mitspa said:
No I have compassion for some sinners .. :)
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You can't selectively have compassion for "some" sinners, Mitspa. You either have compassion for ALL sinners, or NO compassion for ANY of them. :/
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#820
#820
blue_ladybug said:
You can't selectively have compassion for "some" sinners, Mitspa. You either have compassion for ALL sinners, or NO compassion for ANY of them. :/
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Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
 
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