I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
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Mary did not need to be sinless, but that's how God chose to do it. We learn about the sense of the sacred from the Ark of the Covenant. It is not a mere box. It is the holiest and most sacred object, apart from its contents, in all of Judaism. It foreshadows Mary primarily BECAUSE OF ITS CONTENTS THAT FORESHADOW JESUS:
1) the rod of Aaron (Jesus as High Priest)
2) manna (Jesus as Bread of Life)
3) 10 commandments in stone (Jesus as the word made flesh)
I can provide "proof texts" if you really want them.
We don't deny that these three aspects of Jesus were in Mary's womb, do you? What really is an incredible mindset is denying that anything on this earth can be sacred. That's not Christianity, it's Gnosticism.
Mary was not nailed to a cross, but she suffered an interior martyrdom in union with her Son. It's the same with any mother who sees her children in pain. Do you deny this aspect of all mothers too?
Luke 2:34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce)[b] so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Does that mean Mary's suffering at the foot of the cross was meaningless??? Who are "the many"? Why do Protestants run and hide when this verse is brought forth?
You should ask your uncle and family if they worship Mary. It's a stupid insulting charge that has been refuted time and time again. And having Catholic family members does not qualify you to make dogmatic declarations on the Catholic faith. Some of your comments are at odds with 99% of all Christianity so what infallible "church" do you belong to? Do you even have one? You need to put some thought behind those rocks before throwing them at Catholics. It appears that's all you can do is be rude and nearly violent with your anti-Christian digs. Try asking questions instead of hurling thoughtless insults because what you think the Church teaches are fantasies in your head.
1) the rod of Aaron (Jesus as High Priest)
2) manna (Jesus as Bread of Life)
3) 10 commandments in stone (Jesus as the word made flesh)
I can provide "proof texts" if you really want them.
We don't deny that these three aspects of Jesus were in Mary's womb, do you? What really is an incredible mindset is denying that anything on this earth can be sacred. That's not Christianity, it's Gnosticism.
Mary was not nailed to a cross, but she suffered an interior martyrdom in union with her Son. It's the same with any mother who sees her children in pain. Do you deny this aspect of all mothers too?
Luke 2:34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted 35 (and you yourself a sword will pierce)[b] so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Does that mean Mary's suffering at the foot of the cross was meaningless??? Who are "the many"? Why do Protestants run and hide when this verse is brought forth?
You should ask your uncle and family if they worship Mary. It's a stupid insulting charge that has been refuted time and time again. And having Catholic family members does not qualify you to make dogmatic declarations on the Catholic faith. Some of your comments are at odds with 99% of all Christianity so what infallible "church" do you belong to? Do you even have one? You need to put some thought behind those rocks before throwing them at Catholics. It appears that's all you can do is be rude and nearly violent with your anti-Christian digs. Try asking questions instead of hurling thoughtless insults because what you think the Church teaches are fantasies in your head.
Good thing Im no protestant 
Shrines, statues and candles does not constitute worship. You have unbending preconceived notions. Ask him if he worships Mary. Maybe you have, you just didn't like his answer.
Quote me. "fantasies in your head" is not an insult, its a fact. You haven't a clue about Catholicism but your comments are superficial preconceived Protestant notions with no basis in reality, and not a shred of historical continuity. Beyond that, there are no insults in my post. Quote me the next time you think you see an insult from me, and stop the false charges.
Quote me. "fantasies in your head" is not an insult, its a fact. You haven't a clue about Catholicism but your comments are superficial preconceived Protestant notions with no basis in reality, and not a shred of historical continuity. Beyond that, there are no insults in my post. Quote me the next time you think you see an insult from me, and stop the false charges.
:smoke: some people were asking us from a long time ago about something that could save our soul from everlasting damnation . . . .. ..
``HOW CAN YOU ALL BE SURE THAT IF WE BELIEVE IN THAT
BOOK COULD SAVE OUR SOUL?``
~:»AND WE ANSWERED THEM
``WHAT ARE YOUR BASIS IN SAVING THE SOUL OF A HUMAN BEING
IF THIS BOOK IS NEVER USED BY ALL PEOPLE
WHOSE BELIEFS ARE THE SAME AS ALL OF YOU
AND WHAT BOOKS WHERE ALL OF YOU COULD READ EVERYTHING ABOUT
OUR SAVIOUR LORD JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF
OUR LORD GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY WHO IS GOOD AND DOESN'T LIE``
and above all from
which (what) is written according to the apostle of the gentiles
:read:
1 Corinthians 4:6
And these matters, brothers, I have applied in a figure to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you might learn not to think beyond what is written, so that none of you be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you to differ? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
:ty:
God bless us all always
``HOW CAN YOU ALL BE SURE THAT IF WE BELIEVE IN THAT
BOOK COULD SAVE OUR SOUL?``
~:»AND WE ANSWERED THEM
``WHAT ARE YOUR BASIS IN SAVING THE SOUL OF A HUMAN BEING
IF THIS BOOK IS NEVER USED BY ALL PEOPLE
WHOSE BELIEFS ARE THE SAME AS ALL OF YOU
AND WHAT BOOKS WHERE ALL OF YOU COULD READ EVERYTHING ABOUT
OUR SAVIOUR LORD JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF
OUR LORD GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY WHO IS GOOD AND DOESN'T LIE``
and above all from which (what) is written according to the apostle of the gentiles
:read:
1 Corinthians 4:6
And these matters, brothers, I have applied in a figure to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you might learn not to think beyond what is written, so that none of you be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you to differ? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
:ty:
God bless us all always
Do you know I have never met a Roman Catholic before who talked such utter nonsense as you do. Mary WAS a sinner. She neglected her son on the journey home from Jerusalem (in the UK social services would have taken Him from her for neglect). She tried to interfere with His ministry and was roundly rebuked. Jesus said that the one who did the will of the Father was more blessed than Mary. Don't you read the New Testament?
How could the divinity of Someone Who existed eternally before Mary was a gleam in her sinful mother's eye be diminished by the state of one woman? You must be joking.
If you really think that no one believed Mary to be a sinful, ordinary woman fifty years ago you must be out of your mind. Where do you get these ridiculous notions from? I knew she was an ordinary sinful woman seventy years ago.
How could the divinity of Someone Who existed eternally before Mary was a gleam in her sinful mother's eye be diminished by the state of one woman? You must be joking.
If you really think that no one believed Mary to be a sinful, ordinary woman fifty years ago you must be out of your mind. Where do you get these ridiculous notions from? I knew she was an ordinary sinful woman seventy years ago.
L
I know that person was a Protestant because I've been talking to him.
I have knowledge of that argument because it's a very common, oft-repeated one that Protestants make.
"Drop religious affiliations"? Really? Do you mean, cease to be a part of a Church? From my understanding of Scripture, Christ makes us a part of His Body, the Church (Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 1:9, Galatians 3:27), and as part of that Body saves us (Ephesians 5:23,25). Yes, we are called to "just be Christians," to be One Body in Him and only one (John 17:21). But we are called to be "just Christians" by uniting ourselves to Christ's Body together in unity, not by severing ourselves completely from "religious affiliations" with the Body of believers.
I have knowledge of that argument because it's a very common, oft-repeated one that Protestants make.
"Drop religious affiliations"? Really? Do you mean, cease to be a part of a Church? From my understanding of Scripture, Christ makes us a part of His Body, the Church (Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 1:9, Galatians 3:27), and as part of that Body saves us (Ephesians 5:23,25). Yes, we are called to "just be Christians," to be One Body in Him and only one (John 17:21). But we are called to be "just Christians" by uniting ourselves to Christ's Body together in unity, not by severing ourselves completely from "religious affiliations" with the Body of believers.
L
If your argument were true, it presents the absurd situation that there no Christians (no one in Christ) until the 18th century, skeptical "Enlightenment" -- the single greatest rejection of Christ and truth in the history of Europe. I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable to me. If all Christians believed something from the first century forward (not just the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is inconsequential, but many other things I am sure you reject -- and their writings demonstrate that they did), then it's rational to assume that their teachers (that is, the Apostles, and their disciples) knew something about it that I don't. You "get your information" from "Scripture alone" -- but Scripture has to be interpreted, and as you yourself declare, you don't care what anybody else thinks; you make yourself the only interpreter you will accept. As you've demonstrated elsewhere, you have your own idiosyncratic interpretations that don't accord with what anybody else has believed in the past or ever. You admit elsewhere that you "don't belong to any denomination." I believe it.
I did not ignore it. You ignored my answer.
I'm tired of arguing with you, man. Peace be with you.
I did not ignore it. You ignored my answer.
I'm tired of arguing with you, man. Peace be with you.
L
This is pretty much the assessment I've come to about this whole thread and forum. With only one exception, none of these people is interested in "understanding the Catholic faith" (I think whoever asked the question in the first place was driven away long ago) or reasonable discussion of differences, only attacking, insulting, and condemning others, and unleashing their pain, anger, and unresolved issues. These people behave like children (and I'm sorry, I'm including you in that assessment) and not the older people their profiles claim.
I've been repeatedly called a liar, insulted, mocked, ridiculed, had my good-faith arguments ignored or dismissed, my faith and myself personally condemned -- and I'm sorry, but it's just not worth the time I am putting into this or the grief it's causing me to continue doing that. If anybody really does want to "understand the Catholic faith," I'd like to invite you to come to my blog, read what I've written, and have a discussion. I am always willing to answer questions, even critical ones, and anyone who comes is embraced as a brother or sister, as our Lord calls us to do. But I don't think this thread is fruitful, for anybody, just an ongoing schoolyard brawl that got of hand and devolved into childish insults a long time ago. I fully agree with the person who recommended the thread be closed.
I will pray for you all. The peace and grace of the Lord be with you!
I've been repeatedly called a liar, insulted, mocked, ridiculed, had my good-faith arguments ignored or dismissed, my faith and myself personally condemned -- and I'm sorry, but it's just not worth the time I am putting into this or the grief it's causing me to continue doing that. If anybody really does want to "understand the Catholic faith," I'd like to invite you to come to my blog, read what I've written, and have a discussion. I am always willing to answer questions, even critical ones, and anyone who comes is embraced as a brother or sister, as our Lord calls us to do. But I don't think this thread is fruitful, for anybody, just an ongoing schoolyard brawl that got of hand and devolved into childish insults a long time ago. I fully agree with the person who recommended the thread be closed.
I will pray for you all. The peace and grace of the Lord be with you!
He just forgot to mention it in the New Testament? LOL
That is pure bunkum. It has nothing to do with Mary at all. If it foreshadows anyone it foreshadows Jesus. He was both God and man (gold and acacia wood), He contained the covenant within Himself, He is the place to which men come for mercy.
you people do grab at straws. you are so good at inventing spurious ideas. The Ark itself foreshadowed Jesus. Necessarily its contents would do the same.
From Grimm's Fairy Tales?
Yes we do deny it. All that was in Mary's womb was a baby to be born. So you think her womb contained commandments written on stone, a leafy bough, and a loaf of bread?. The midwife must have got a shock LOL
No person on earth is naturally sacred. We become sacred when we are sanctified in Christ.
Rubbish. She simply suffered what any woman suffers if her son is killed. There was no atoning feature to her sufferings at all. You live in cloud cuckoo land.
Yes they suffer. We all suffer. But there is nothing vicarious abut it.
So a sword would pierce her? That happens to all women who see their children suffer. So what of it?
Yes in the grand scheme of things. The New Testament never suggests otherwise.
LOL you must be joking. Hide from what? The verse is about the relationship of the many to Jesus. As a whole it has nothing to do with Mary. Look for yourself.
Many Roman Catholics around the world DO worship Mary. If you deny that you are a liar.
That is pure bunkum. It has nothing to do with Mary at all. If it foreshadows anyone it foreshadows Jesus. He was both God and man (gold and acacia wood), He contained the covenant within Himself, He is the place to which men come for mercy.
you people do grab at straws. you are so good at inventing spurious ideas. The Ark itself foreshadowed Jesus. Necessarily its contents would do the same.
From Grimm's Fairy Tales?
Yes we do deny it. All that was in Mary's womb was a baby to be born. So you think her womb contained commandments written on stone, a leafy bough, and a loaf of bread?. The midwife must have got a shock LOL
No person on earth is naturally sacred. We become sacred when we are sanctified in Christ.
Rubbish. She simply suffered what any woman suffers if her son is killed. There was no atoning feature to her sufferings at all. You live in cloud cuckoo land.
Yes they suffer. We all suffer. But there is nothing vicarious abut it.
So a sword would pierce her? That happens to all women who see their children suffer. So what of it?
Yes in the grand scheme of things. The New Testament never suggests otherwise.
LOL you must be joking. Hide from what? The verse is about the relationship of the many to Jesus. As a whole it has nothing to do with Mary. Look for yourself.
Many Roman Catholics around the world DO worship Mary. If you deny that you are a liar.
:smoke: by the way brother do you belive that even the ancient people like
hebrews made a graven image of those people who were
famous in their time
before the time he choiced to be in human form the messia our saviour
our lord god the only begotten son of
our lord god the father almighty who us good and doesn't lie
:rofl: by they never bow down unto those graven images . . ..
:ty:
God bless us all always
hebrews made a graven image of those people who were
famous in their time
before the time he choiced to be in human form the messia our saviour
our lord god the only begotten son of
our lord god the father almighty who us good and doesn't lie
:rofl: by they never bow down unto those graven images . . ..
:ty:
God bless us all always
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The reason the Catholics insist Mary had to be born without sin is because the Catholics Worship Mary. The reason Mary had to be a Virgin is because the Catholics Pray to Mary. The reason Mary could not have other children is because Mary is the main God of the Catholic Faith.
The reason Catholics reject what True Christians and the Scriptures say is because the Catholics Heart is hardened towards God.
The Catholics teach as Doctrines the commandments of men. Example, Mary being born without sin. The Catholics have taken the "Full of Grace" as to mean being without sin. They actually believe and teach one cannot have Grace and sin at the same time. This is not what the Scriptures teach. This is what Catholicism teaches.
Since the Catholics on this site teach Mary was without sin proves they are teaching as Doctrine the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
As long as you Catholics keep teaching the Doctrines of men you Heart is not right with God and in Vain you Worship Him. God cannot and will not listen to your Prayers to Him.
Matthew 7:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
God clearly has said there are false prophets among us in sheep's clothing. People who claim they follow and Worship God, but instead follow a different god. I truly believe these passages in Mathew are talking about the Catholics who Worship and follow Mary.
Just because a Catholic says they are following God means nothing. Its what they say and teach we are to pay attention to and so far as to the Catholics on this site goes, they are not following God. No one can follow two Gods. You cannot follow God and Mary. You cannot serve God and serve Mary.
The reason Catholics reject what True Christians and the Scriptures say is because the Catholics Heart is hardened towards God.
The Catholics teach as Doctrines the commandments of men. Example, Mary being born without sin. The Catholics have taken the "Full of Grace" as to mean being without sin. They actually believe and teach one cannot have Grace and sin at the same time. This is not what the Scriptures teach. This is what Catholicism teaches.
Since the Catholics on this site teach Mary was without sin proves they are teaching as Doctrine the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
As long as you Catholics keep teaching the Doctrines of men you Heart is not right with God and in Vain you Worship Him. God cannot and will not listen to your Prayers to Him.
Matthew 7:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
God clearly has said there are false prophets among us in sheep's clothing. People who claim they follow and Worship God, but instead follow a different god. I truly believe these passages in Mathew are talking about the Catholics who Worship and follow Mary.
Just because a Catholic says they are following God means nothing. Its what they say and teach we are to pay attention to and so far as to the Catholics on this site goes, they are not following God. No one can follow two Gods. You cannot follow God and Mary. You cannot serve God and serve Mary.
:happy: hope you wont be confused to the typographical error :blush:
as our lord god the father almighty who is good and doesn't lie
and his only begotten son our lord jesus christ
and the holy ghost the holy spirit were not same personas .......
as the written scriptures says
:read:
Hebrews: 4. 12. For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ~:› DOUAY-RHEIMS VERSION
as they say also
by they who where never bowed down unto those graven images . ...
:ty:
God bless us all always
as our lord god the father almighty who is good and doesn't lie
and his only begotten son our lord jesus christ
and the holy ghost the holy spirit were not same personas .......
as the written scriptures says
:read:
Hebrews: 4. 12. For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ~:› DOUAY-RHEIMS VERSION
as they say alsoby they who where never bowed down unto those graven images . ...
:ty:
God bless us all always
Last edited:
There is a HUGE difference between veneration and worship. How many dictionary definitions would it take to convince you?
noun ven·er·a·tion \ˌve-nə-ˈrā-shən\
Definition of VENERATION
1
: respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person
2
: the act of venerating
[SUP]1[/SUP]worshipthe act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/
Will facts have any bearing on your prejudice? Not likely.
The dictionary disagrees with you. And all bowing is not worship either.
Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.
All bowing is not worship. Protestants will bow their head in prayer when reading the Bible. Are they worshiping their Bible? You better not visit Japan, there everybody worships each other, according to your self made definition that you will probably rigidly adhere to.
Do you honestly think that Catholics are so stupid as to believe their prayers stop at a piece of wood or plaster? Or because of their posture?
Yea, it shows in the exodus of Protestant ministers and scholars swimming the Tiber River. Maybe you can tell me how us Catholics can find common ground with tens of thousands different belief systems, not to mention individual self-appointed popes with their "infallible" opinions bounced off of age of enlightment heresies.
A modern invention. Jesus made the transition from boyhood to manhood which is why they made the trip in the first place.
Luke 2 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he said to them.
Please explain, with reason, how you squeeze sin on Mary's part. Furthermore, it was customary for women and children to travel separately in caravans. Since His status was in a state of transition his location could have been overlooked. It has nothing to do with parental incompetence. Could you be imposing your abandonment experience into the text?
It showed in his actions when he amazed the scribes. He did not need to hang on to Mary's apron strings. He had important things to finish and that is why he elected to stay behind. That is not what Jesus said. Do I have to post the scriptures??? You are trying to tell me that Jesus violated the 4th commandment. Jesus didn't rebuke his mother, that's ridiculous. You are also trying to tell me that everyone who does the will of God, except for Mary, are his mothers and brothers. Ridiculous. Mary did the will of God, and when anyone follows her example, are His mothers and brothers. Jesus is making a unity, not a false dichotomy. This same issue has come up before, and I was left with someone arguing that Mary did not do the will of God...more fundie insanity.
If you were God, wouldn't you create your mother to be perfect? Or your wife? I think your blind prejudice forbids you from answering that question with any honesty.
These doctrines of demons were around before 50 years ago, its just been made popular in the last 50 years or so, maybe more. I'm not going to quibble about it, the fact is none of the reformers taught these doctrines of demons, they were invented long AFTER the reformation. That's the point. They are man made traditions of men invented for one purpose- to bash the truths of the Catholic faith.
noun ven·er·a·tion \ˌve-nə-ˈrā-shən\
Definition of VENERATION
1
: respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person
2
: the act of venerating
[SUP]1[/SUP]worshipthe act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/
Will facts have any bearing on your prejudice? Not likely.
The dictionary disagrees with you. And all bowing is not worship either.
Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.
All bowing is not worship. Protestants will bow their head in prayer when reading the Bible. Are they worshiping their Bible? You better not visit Japan, there everybody worships each other, according to your self made definition that you will probably rigidly adhere to.
Do you honestly think that Catholics are so stupid as to believe their prayers stop at a piece of wood or plaster? Or because of their posture?
Yea, it shows in the exodus of Protestant ministers and scholars swimming the Tiber River. Maybe you can tell me how us Catholics can find common ground with tens of thousands different belief systems, not to mention individual self-appointed popes with their "infallible" opinions bounced off of age of enlightment heresies.
A modern invention. Jesus made the transition from boyhood to manhood which is why they made the trip in the first place.
Luke 2 49 And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he said to them.
Please explain, with reason, how you squeeze sin on Mary's part. Furthermore, it was customary for women and children to travel separately in caravans. Since His status was in a state of transition his location could have been overlooked. It has nothing to do with parental incompetence. Could you be imposing your abandonment experience into the text?
It showed in his actions when he amazed the scribes. He did not need to hang on to Mary's apron strings. He had important things to finish and that is why he elected to stay behind. That is not what Jesus said. Do I have to post the scriptures??? You are trying to tell me that Jesus violated the 4th commandment. Jesus didn't rebuke his mother, that's ridiculous. You are also trying to tell me that everyone who does the will of God, except for Mary, are his mothers and brothers. Ridiculous. Mary did the will of God, and when anyone follows her example, are His mothers and brothers. Jesus is making a unity, not a false dichotomy. This same issue has come up before, and I was left with someone arguing that Mary did not do the will of God...more fundie insanity.
If you were God, wouldn't you create your mother to be perfect? Or your wife? I think your blind prejudice forbids you from answering that question with any honesty.
These doctrines of demons were around before 50 years ago, its just been made popular in the last 50 years or so, maybe more. I'm not going to quibble about it, the fact is none of the reformers taught these doctrines of demons, they were invented long AFTER the reformation. That's the point. They are man made traditions of men invented for one purpose- to bash the truths of the Catholic faith.
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Conclude? Why do you conclude I came to a definitive conclusion? That seems an erroneous assumption on your part when I very clearly said it seemed you were doing something in a derogatory fashion, as opposed to making a straight up claim that you were in fact doing something in a derogatory fashion. I did question your motives. But now look at you, all boo hooing about it, and making ridiculous jumps. It does seem the Catholic thing to do, though. Don't know something for sure? Mistaken about what is actually written? Unable to understand what was said? Just make something up and call it infallible.
Barely a decade older than I? Hmmm... Not sure what they teach there in Canada, but here in the U.S. we are taught a decade is equal to ten years. If you were to compare valleyants age to mine, you would see that he is two decades plus two years my senior. (U.S. calculation that is) Thats old enough to be my dad, or should I dare say.... my Pop's!
I did elaborate and now you are complaining about it. What lies you ask. Are you really that blind? I just pointed one out to you. Are you pretending you did not see that too? Catholics have such a hard time with the truth. Why is that? Even if they ask, like you, you complain about what you are told, and act as if it is my fault that I clarified something for you when you asked me to. It is reprehensible behaviour.
LOL. Oh my goodness, someone lies to me, you Haven't been following the conversation closely so you don't know what I am talking about and ask for clarity, I comply and clarify for you, and then you complain because I made it clear for you. He lied to me right from his very first post where he claimed someone said something they did not. If it was a mistake he could have owned up to it, but no, he defended the lie, pretended it never happened, added more lies to it, claimed I called him a lair in every single post to him which was simply another lie, then I have you ask me about it and now you are complaining about it as well. His claim that I called him a liar every single time I addressed him was a lie. I am not sure I can make it any clearer. Just because I called him on his lies, yes his multiple lies to me, does not mean I called him a liar every time I addressed him. Catholics have such a hard time with the truth.
In fact the Catholic has just presented very clearly another dishonest, hypocritical stance, one typical of the Catholic apologist, that being that they understand Protestantism because they were once a part of it, but no former Catholic is capable of or understands Catholicism. We see this lie often. LOL. The lies never stop from the Catholics.
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