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JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
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#81
Can I ask you? If you want to look to the literal letter of the law, does this include Christ's literal commandments? Are they as important as OT law? If they are, how do you find obeying those literal commands in the beatitudes, and the rest of Christ's teachings?

IE

Don't invite friends and family home for a meal but rather the lame, blind, poor, beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven.
If you fast make sure no one knows you fast or accept you are a hypocrite.

If anyone steals anything of yours, give them more besides with nothing but love in your heart for them

Don't short change yourself.

It is not enough just to not commit adultery. If you as much as look at another with lust in your eye you have already committed adultery with them in your heart.

It is not enough just to say you do not murder, if you get angry with your brother or sister you are subject to judgement.



You could perfectly obey the ten commandments(if that were possible) and still be cast into hell. For there is nothing in them about forgiving others. But Jesus said, if you do not forgive your brother your father in Heaven will not forgive you.

The yardstick is NOT the Ten Commandments. Try and follow the literal letter of Christ's teachings in the beatitudes. If you do, you will soon look away from the literal letter and to Christ-if you are sincere
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT??? THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE MOSAIC LAW!!!!! THERE IS A HUGE HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE! ONE WAS WRITTEN LITERALLY BY GOD'S OWN HAND IN STONE AND ONE WAS WRITTEN ON WHATEVER THEY WROTE ON BACK THEN AND WAS WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF MOSES.

For us to have an effective disscussion we have to first establish this.
 
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LanceA

Guest
#82
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT??? THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE MOSAIC LAW!!!!! THERE IS A HUGE HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE! ONE WAS WRITTEN LITERALLY BY GOD'S OWN HAND IN STONE AND ONE WAS WRITTEN ON WHATEVER THEY WROTE ON BACK THEN AND WAS WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF MOSES.

For us to have an effective disscussion we have to first establish this.
Wow calm down.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#83
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT??? THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE MOSAIC LAW!!!!! THERE IS A HUGE HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE! ONE WAS WRITTEN LITERALLY BY GOD'S OWN HAND IN STONE AND ONE WAS WRITTEN ON WHATEVER THEY WROTE ON BACK THEN AND WAS WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF MOSES.

For us to have an effective disscussion we have to first establish this.
Absolutely, I agree.
Do you consider Christ's commandments as important as the Ten Commandments?

Do you accept if you could obey the Ten Commandments perfectly that would not mean you could attain Heaven by doing so?

What is the standard in your view, the Ten Commandments or Christ's teaching according to the literal letter?
 
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LanceA

Guest
#84
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT??? THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE MOSAIC LAW!!!!! THERE IS A HUGE HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE! ONE WAS WRITTEN LITERALLY BY GOD'S OWN HAND IN STONE AND ONE WAS WRITTEN ON WHATEVER THEY WROTE ON BACK THEN AND WAS WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF MOSES.

For us to have an effective disscussion we have to first establish this.
No one is disagreeing with the ten commandments. You stated earlier that you can't have salvation without the ten commandments. This I disagree with. Or did you say we must follow the sabbath to be saved? I disagree with this as wel
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
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#85
Absolutely, I agree.
Do you consider Christ's commandments as important as the Ten Commandments?
Yes. If you look in Matthew 5. He clarifies a lot of the Ten Commandments. This doesn't mean he got rid of it or replaced it. He clarified it.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fufill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth dissapear not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen will by any means dissapear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5: 17-18
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#86
Yes. If you look in Matthew 5. He clarifies a lot of the Ten Commandments. This doesn't mean he got rid of it or replaced it. He clarified it.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fufill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth dissapear not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen will by any means dissapear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5: 17-18
If you cannot have salvation without obeying the literal letter of the Ten Commandments, would you also believe you cannot have salvation without obeying the literal letter of Christ's commands?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#87
I have post traumatic stress disorder. It means I experienced a trauma.
I understand you had a trauma. What I do not understand is how you went from them not understanding that to you deciding it is what you have labeled as "mainstream Christianity" that is the problem and not the understanding of those who you acknowledge didn't understand.
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
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#88
No one is disagreeing with the ten commandments. You stated earlier that you can't have salvation without the ten commandments. This I disagree with. Or did you say we must follow the sabbath to be saved? I disagree with this as wel
Lemme clarify then: the ten commandments are like a litmus test. it's how you know if your heart is really in it. The sabbath is the command that is almost always left out and you can't follow just nine of them (Matthew 5:19). Jesus's death on the cross is what forgives our sins but we have to put our money where our mouths are and atleast TRY to love God the best we can, hence the ten commandments. For those who don't keep them but still are "saved" well that just...you can't be saved and then go murder, lie, steal and covet. (Matthew 7:21-22) Just like you can't keep the commandments without the covering of Jesus.

Take a look at Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 12:17
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#89
The operative phrase here in that scripture is = ..until everything is accomplished. " Christ fulfilled the law and so by believing in HIm..His righteousness is given to us. His life in us causes us to walk in love which fulfills the law.

The law whether ceremonial/written/moral is all fulfilled in Christ and we are in Christ. It's beautiful how our LOrd did it all for us!

Yes. If you look in Matthew 5. He clarifies a lot of the Ten Commandments. This doesn't mean he got rid of it or replaced it. He clarified it.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fufill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth dissapear not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen will by any means dissapear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5: 17-18
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#90
Lemme clarify then: the ten commandments are like a litmus test. it's how you know if your heart is really in it. The sabbath is the command that is almost always left out and you can't follow just nine of them (Matthew 5:19). Jesus's death on the cross is what forgives our sins but we have to put our money where our mouths are and atleast TRY to love God the best we can, hence the ten commandments. For those who don't keep them but still are "saved" well that just...you can't be saved and then go murder, lie, steal and covet. (Matthew 7:21-22) Just like you can't keep the commandments without the covering of Jesus.

Take a look at Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 12:17
The litmus test if you like would be Christ's teachings wouldn't they? Those teachings are to a higher standard than the Ten Commandments. Wouldn't perfect-uncompromising religion demand the best?
 
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LanceA

Guest
#91
The litmus test if you like would be Christ's teachings wouldn't they? Those teachings are to a higher standard than the Ten Commandments. Wouldn't perfect-uncompromising religion demand the best?
I completely agree with this. Christs commandments are actually harder than the ten commandments. If we hate we murder. If we think about another women in lust or man we commit adultery. So Christs commandments trumps OT commandments.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#92
I completely agree with this. Christs commandments are actually harder than the ten commandments. If we hate we murder. If we think about another women in lust or man we commit adultery. So Christs commandments trumps OT commandments.
So many fail to understand by the law being placed within you, you in your heart want to obey God, therefore the law of righteousness got removed. So what's the problem?

Paul tells us, sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace


Yet soooooo many preach you must in effect look to the literal letter and obey it in order to attain Heaven(live under the law)


It is satans biggest con trick. He knows where the true power of sin lies(a law of righteousness 1Cor15:56)

And so the majority believe once you get saved, in effect you have to obey law to attain Heaven(a righteousness of observing the law not faith in Christ) Therefore sins dominance over your life continues. That is what satan wants.

The law of righteousness got removed because the law was placed in your most inward parts, you want to obey Christ
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
25
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#93
I understand you had a trauma. What I do not understand is how you went from them not understanding that to you deciding it is what you have labeled as "mainstream Christianity" that is the problem and not the understanding of those who you acknowledge didn't understand.
Because it was not just one instance. It was a lot of instances where I had to deal with "Christians" who just didn't care about me when they said they did and when they made exscuse after exsuse for it. It became more of a social club than anything and there was a merry-go-round of verses and books that were preached. I went to two different churches and heard the exact same sermon and it was different pastors.

The churches I have been to rarely go outside the books Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Exodus, Genesis, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, 1&2 Timothy, Hebrews, James (sometimes), 1&2 Peter (sometimes), 1&2 corinthians, proverbs, psalm, Job, Ecclesiastes, Jonah (sometimes), Ruth, Isaiah, Esther, Acts (sometimes), 1&2 kings, and Daniel.

They have never been into Jude, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronimy, Judges, 1&2 Chronicals, Ezra, Nehimah, Jeremiah (in depth), Lamentations (only one small group did this one), Ezekiel (only one pastor ever did this one), Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Michah, Nahum, Habakuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Titus, Philemon (I think only one pastor did this but I can't remember), 1,2,3 John, Jude, and Revelation (I have been to Bible studies where we cover Revelation and Jude but I have never been to a church service where they covered them).

I want to get off this stupid merry-go-round of the same verses and get into the WHOLE Bible.
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
25
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#94
The litmus test if you like would be Christ's teachings wouldn't they? Those teachings are to a higher standard than the Ten Commandments. Wouldn't perfect-uncompromising religion demand the best?
I never said follow the Ten Commandments over Jesus's commands. But if we ignore one and follow the other that's like trying to drive half of a car.
 
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LanceA

Guest
#95
So many fail to understand by the law being placed within you, you in your heart want to obey God, therefore the law of righteousness got removed. So what's the problem?

Paul tells us, sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace


Yet soooooo many preach you must in effect look to the literal letter and obey it in order to attain Heaven(live under the law)


It is satans biggest con trick. He knows where the true power of sin lies(a law of righteousness 1Cor15:56)

And so the majority believe once you get saved, in effect you have to obey law to attain Heaven(a righteousness of observing the law not faith in Christ) Therefore sins dominance over your life continues. That is what satan wants.

The law of righteousness got removed because the law was placed in your most inward parts, you want to obey Christ
I think we need to decide if under the law includes the ten commandments? I think that is what she is basing her decisions on.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#96
I never said follow the Ten Commandments over Jesus's commands. But if we ignore one and follow the other that's like trying to drive half of a car.


You haven't answered my question.
If the literal letter of the ten commandments must be obeyed to attain Heaven, must the literal letter of Christ's commands also be obeyed to attain Heaven?

Surely, if you believed only the Ten Commandments must be obeyed, to attain Heaven, and not the literal commands of Christ also, this would be compromising Christianity according to your views of it. Wouldn't this leave you in the same place as the churches you are disenchanted with who are mainstream?
 
Oct 21, 2015
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#97
I think we need to decide if under the law includes the ten commandments? I think that is what she is basing her decisions on.
It definitely does. The Christian is not under the ten commandments unto righteousness:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us(the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6


Paul is stressing the Christian must die to a law of righteousness in the above. Which law is he referring to? In the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. ''Thou shalt not covet which is one of the Ten Commandments:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 
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LanceA

Guest
#98
It definitely does. The Christian is not under the ten commandments unto righteousness:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us(the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6


Paul is stressing the Christian must die to a law of righteousness in the above. Which law is he referring to? In the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. ''Thou shalt not covet which is one of the Ten Commandments:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
You are 100% correct.
 
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LanceA

Guest
#99
@JFSurvivor I commend your eagerness to serve God. I just think you are taking steps backwards and not forward. If you come across TRUE Christians you will see they follow the ten commandments without actually following them. True Christians attempt to live their lives for Christ daily. This includes following the Ten Commandments. A person can get so caught up in watching out for the sins of the world that they lose their relationship with Jesus. Don't focus on the sin but on the salvation. Constantly reminding yourself of the Ten Commandments is focusing on the sin and constantly reminding yourself of Jesus is focusing on the salvation.

I think another issue you have is mainly the Sabbath. A "mainstream Christian" can follow all the commandments but if you feel they don't honor the Sabbath on Saturday then they aren't a true Christian. I believe this is your biggest complain right?
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
1,184
25
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@JFSurvivor I commend your eagerness to serve God. I just think you are taking steps backwards and not forward. If you come across TRUE Christians you will see they follow the ten commandments without actually following them. True Christians attempt to live their lives for Christ daily. This includes following the Ten Commandments. A person can get so caught up in watching out for the sins of the world that they lose their relationship with Jesus. Don't focus on the sin but on the salvation. Constantly reminding yourself of the Ten Commandments is focusing on the sin and constantly reminding yourself of Jesus is focusing on the salvation.

I think another issue you have is mainly the Sabbath. A "mainstream Christian" can follow all the commandments but if you feel they don't honor the Sabbath on Saturday then they aren't a true Christian. I believe this is your biggest complain right?
Eh...more like a concern...because if you look at the origins of where sunday worship came from it's not pretty and tons of people are worshipping on Sunday and that's not good.

I seriously wonder if people have been reading my posts in theie entirety and been looking up the scripture I posted because no one has mentioned the verses I put up. If I posted a verse out of context let me know but back it up with something. This is turning into nonsense. If we want to have a Biblical discussion then lets look at the Bible because there are verses that appear to support both sides.

Also check out Hebrews 4:1-13. There is so much in the Bible about this and no one has said anything about the verses I put up. :-(