Hyper grace

[james57]

. But continual rebellion, walking in evil and disobedience will bring judgement. But it seems christians often feel God has changed. .

God hasn't changed, but the covenant did, we have a new one

Under the old covenant Moses said:

Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer Deut 10:16

Under the new covenant:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live Deut30:6

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again. It is not an option it is pivotal.

Being born again is when the Holy Spirit enters your life and writes the law on your mind and places it on your heart God desires you to keep. Everything has changed at that point.
No longer could I sin without conscience once that happened. I could not be like others at my school and laugh and joke as they committed sin without conscience. I could sin yes once I had been born again, but my conscience was seered when I did. I had no rest or peace, for I was going against the law placed on my heart.

If I rebelled if you like for a week, I had no happiness or peace for a week, if a month, no happiness or peace for a month. I was forever changed that day I was born again, I would never be able to happily sin without conscience after that. I would not succeed if I committed wilful sin, I could not be happy, only miserable until I bowed the knee. So I really don't understand why people believe grace can be used as a licence to sin if a person truly has been born again
Jesus will only be your saviour from sin if you have been born again, not for those who haven't. Hence his words to Nicodemus

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace is not a licence to sin...no grace teacher says that. In fact they say the very opposite!..Here is an example..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIqZ5sPSEg

 

[KennethC]

But Kenneth, would it be good to preach a standard you don't even try to aspire to?

Do you not see, unless you clarify you yourself do not try and attain the standard you are preaching to others, people will become crushed if they believe you? They will mistakenly imagine you are attaining to a standard you are not attaining to, and they will feel guilty then.

Is that being guided by love for others, to allow that to happen?

What makes you continue to think I don't in faith in Christ and guidance of the Holy Spirit upholds the teachings of Christ ???

You continue to state this on me yet you do not know me personally to make such statements, that would be being judgmental.

You also can not go by a standard mentioned in the Word of God that applies to a person before they are born again.

This is another problem with now day teaching as they try and make our falling sinful nature still our stance.

Christ is not still hanging on the cross, He is a risen Lord, and we are raised in Him when born again.

We are a new and are commanded to walk as such by the Spirit.

Those who continue to walk the same way as before (by the flesh), Paul says they are still enmity to God, carnally minded, trample the Son of God underfoot.

As the Apostle's John and James showed if ones actions do not reflect the faith in Christ, it is a dead faith where the Truth does not reside.

 

[KennethC]

Grace is not a licence to sin...no grace teacher says that. In fact they say the very opposite!..Here is an example..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fIqZ5sPSEg

You can not state that for all Grace preachers.

I have visited some churches, as well as grew up in a church that taught because of God's grace people can live however they want and still be saved.

 

[Grace777x70]

WOW! I have listened to over 1,000 sermons on the grace of God and never heard that!

of course they can say they are under "grace" but if sin is dominating them..they are not really under grace..we do need to allow for time for the grace of God to burn out of us the residue of the our unrenewed thinking..

Doing righteous acts does not make us righteous! It's all about the grace of Christ and what He has done.

When the priest in the Old Covenant was making atonement for the sin of the man. He did not look at the man..he looked at the perfection of the lamb. So, it is to this day..it's not us God looks at..it's Jesus.

Now if we continue to sin then we will reap destruction in our flesh...but it does not affect our spirit where Christ is..in the new creation. We'll get to see Jesus sooner if we continue in stupid sinning.

You can not state that for all Grace preachers.

I have visited some churches, as well as grew up in a church that taught because of God's grace people can live however they want and still be saved.

 

[KennethC]

WOW! I have listened to over 1,000 sermons on the grace of God and never heard that!

of course they can say they are under "grace" but if sin is dominating them..they are not really under grace..we do need to allow for time for the grace of God to burn out of us the residue of the our unrenewed thinking..

Doing righteous acts does not make us righteous! It's all about the grace of Christ and what He has done.

When the priest in the Old Covenant was making atonement for the sin of the man. He did not look at the man..he looked at the perfection of the lamb. So, it is to this day..it's not us God looks at..it's Jesus.

Now if we continue to sin then we will reap destruction in our flesh...but it does not affect our spirit where Christ is..in the new creation. We'll get to see Jesus sooner if we continue in stupid sinning.

The consequences for continuing to sin holds more then just in flesh.

Jesus gave two teachings about being disobedient servants in Matthew 25, Luke 12.

Both times He said the outcome to those who are disobedient, and the ending result was not they ended up still receiving eternal life.

He said they will be cast out, the door shut on them, and will be appointed a place with the unbelievers.

Paul expounds on this a couple times when he showed only those who continue in God's grace by following the true gospel of faith in Christ will receive eternal life.

Now the question comes how does one not continue in the faith???

The Word of God gives us this answer as well, and this is what it says does this: apostate teaching, willfully continuing sinning, not following sound doctrine, and doing for others in need.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Should we sit back and let people continue to live dangerously by living sinful lifestyles or following false teaching ???

Or would it be more to expose those things and lead them to the Truth ???

By the word of God it shows it is more loving to share the Truth, and lead others and help them to walk the proper path of His sound doctrine.

We must remember any variance from what Jesus taught makes what is taught a false doctrine.

Apostle Paul warns about following doctrines that do not align with what Jesus taught.

We all will stumble at times, I admit that, but stumbling does not allow continuous disobediance to Jesus teachings.

Galatians 5:19
(Do not use liberty in Christ for an opportunity of the flesh / to sin)

Translation. LMKIINR.

Should we sit back and let people continue to live dangerously by living sinful lifestyles of not following the 10 commandments or following false teaching that salvation is by faith alone???

Or would it be more to expose those things and lead them to the Truth that we need to follow the 10 commandments ???

By the word of God it shows it is more loving to share the Truth that we have to follow the 10 commandments, and lead others and help them to walk the proper path of His sound doctrine of keeping the 10 commandments.

We must remember any variance from what Jesus taught about keeping the 10 commandments makes what is taught a false doctrine.

Apostle Paul warns about following doctrines that do not align with what Jesus taught, i.e., keeping the 10 commandments.

We all will stumble at keeping the law at times, I admit that, but stumbling does not allow continuous disobediance to Jesus teachings to keep the 10 commandments .

Galatians 5:19
(Do not use liberty in Christ for an opportunity of the flesh / to sin / to not keep the 10 commandments )

 

[Grace777x70]

Sometimes we view scripture through the "lens" of what we were taught about it...

For example..take Jesus said "If you love me you will keep My commandments"

performance-based "lens" says = IF you love Jesus you will keep His commandments = a condition you must keep His commandments to love Him

grace-based "lens" says = If you love Me you will keep my commandments = a description of what we do because we love Him..

These are 2 totally different views.

In other words it is not a conditional statement ..it is a description of

Here is a short video about willfully sinning ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gqExXWD92E

The consequences for continuing to sin holds more then just in flesh.

Jesus gave two teachings about being disobedient servants in Matthew 25, Luke 12.

Both times He said the outcome to those who are disobedient, and the ending result was not they ended up still receiving eternal life.

He said they will be cast out, the door shut on them, and will be appointed a place with the unbelievers.

Paul expounds on this a couple times when he showed only those who continue in God's grace by following the true gospel of faith in Christ will receive eternal life.

Now the question comes how does one not continue in the faith???

The Word of God gives us this answer as well, and this is what it says does this: apostate teaching, willfully continuing sinning, not following sound doctrine, and doing for others in need.

 

[KennethC]

Also there is no teaching in the bible that if a person is living in willful unrepentant sin they will still receive eternal life.

1 Corinthians 5 is about casting a person out of the church and letting them falter so bad that it will bring them to repentance.

God's grace and the Lord's chastising is for correction. If there is no correction involved before one dies in the teaching given then it is not of God.

Even Jesus gave a parable about obedience before death, and showed after death it is to late to be saved.

Some now day grace teaching says though that a unrepentant sinner can still be saved after death or in that disobedience. That contradicts both what Jesus and Paul said.

 

[james57]

What makes you continue to think I don't in faith in Christ and guidance of the Holy Spirit upholds the teachings of Christ ???

You continue to state this on me yet you do not know me personally to make such statements, that would be being judgmental.

You also can not go by a standard mentioned in the Word of God that applies to a person before they are born again.

This is another problem with now day teaching as they try and make our falling sinful nature still our stance.

Christ is not still hanging on the cross, He is a risen Lord, and we are raised in Him when born again.

We are a new and are commanded to walk as such by the Spirit.

Those who continue to walk the same way as before (by the flesh), Paul says they are still enmity to God, carnally minded, trample the Son of God underfoot.

As the Apostle's John and James showed if ones actions do not reflect the faith in Christ, it is a dead faith where the Truth does not reside.

You admitted previously you don't obey all of Christ's literal commands. I don't either, so I am not finding fault there. But I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression of me, so I always clarify that in honesty as we are called to do.

But then, I don't look to the literal letter of those commands. I follow what Paul wrote:


Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

 

[KennethC]

Sometimes we view scripture through the "lens" of what we were taught about it...

For example..take Jesus said "If you love me you will keep My commandments"

performance-based "lens" says = IF you love Jesus you will keep His commandments = a condition you must keep His commandments to love Him

grace-based "lens" says = If you love Me you will keep my commandments = a description of what we do because we love Him..

These are 2 totally different views.

In other words it is not a conditional statement ..it is a description of

Here is a short video about willfully sinning ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gqExXWD92E

I know the difference in those two ways of thinking, and I agree with the grace viewpoint.

However we must remember though God's grace does not allow sinful behavior to continue to be saved through Christ.

Paul gives clear warning to believers if they continue to practice sinful behaviors, walk by the flesh. The consequences Paul gives is not just earthly one's in the flesh, but eternal one's as well.

Jude 1:4 tells us any teaching of God's grace that allows lewdness/sinful behavior to continue is false teaching, and such people who teach this way are marked for condemnation.

 

[Grace777x70]

So..does that mean that sin is stronger then Jesus's blood which already took that sin away?

John said.."Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.".. he doesn't say..well the Blood of Jesus has not taken your sin away if you do it too much..

The idea that one can lose their salvation takes away from the grace of Christ and His work. We are saying that His salvation is conditional on US.....

Remember the priest looked at the perfection of the lamb - not the sin of the person...God sees the Blood..not us..

Sin will destroy us if we continue in it..it is destructive but doesn't match up with Jesus's sacrifice as our perfect lamb.

There seems to be conflicting ideas in scripture..that is a gimmie!

Here is the teaching for Jude..great question!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nECeAofZveM

I know the difference in those two ways of thinking, and I agree with the grace viewpoint.

However we must remember though God's grace does not allow sinful behavior to continue to be saved through Christ.

Paul gives clear warning to believers if they continue to practice sinful behaviors, walk by the flesh. The consequences Paul gives is not just earthly one's in the flesh, but eternal one's as well.

Jude 1:4 tells us any teaching of God's grace that allows lewdness/sinful behavior to continue is false teaching, and such people who teach this way are marked for condemnation.

 

[KennethC]

You admitted previously you don't obey all of Christ's literal commands. I don't either, so I am not finding fault there. But I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression of me, so I always clarify that in honesty as we are called to do.

But then, I don't look to the literal letter of those commands. I follow what Paul wrote:


Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

Yes again though stumbling at times is not the same as continuance of disobedience.

Because when we stumble and sin, we repent and confess that to God, which is still keeping with following His commandments.

Keeping His commandments does not mean we obey them 100% without fail, but it also does not allow us to disobey them 100% of the time either.

Stumbling is apart of our growth, and the Holy Spirit that abides in us by His guidance and fruit will mold us to strengthen where we are weak.

Making the stumbling become less and less as we mature in the faith.

We must remember 1 Corinthians 8:11 shows a weak brother/sister can still perish.

 

[james57]

Yes again though stumbling at times is not the same as continuance of disobedience.

Because when we stumble and sin, we repent and confess that to God, which is still keeping with following His commandments.

Keeping His commandments does not mean we obey them 100% without fail, but it also does not allow us to disobey them 100% of the time either.

Stumbling is apart of our growth, and the Holy Spirit that abides in us by His guidance and fruit will mold us to strengthen where we are weak.

Making the stumbling become less and less as we mature in the faith.

We must remember 1 Corinthians 8:11 shows a weak brother/sister can still perish.

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

 

[Grace777x70]

I found it interesting that Jesus preached the gospel to dead spirits that had died in Noah's flood...Maybe we don't know everything ... and we just believe what we have been taught.... I don't know... it could be all in the "lens" we look at things..there are still some in the body of Christ that believe that sunday is the Sabbath and would die for those beliefs...just sayin'...

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

proclamation is the exact same word for preaching the gospel...

Also there is no teaching in the bible that if a person is living in willful unrepentant sin they will still receive eternal life.

1 Corinthians 5 is about casting a person out of the church and letting them falter so bad that it will bring them to repentance.

God's grace and the Lord's chastising is for correction. If there is no correction involved before one dies in the teaching given then it is not of God.

Even Jesus gave a parable about obedience before death, and showed after death it is to late to be saved.

Some now day grace teaching says though that a unrepentant sinner can still be saved after death or in that disobedience. That contradicts both what Jesus and Paul said.

 

[KennethC]

So..does that mean that sin is stronger then Jesus's blood which already took that sin away?

John said.."Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.".. he doesn't say..well the Blood of Jesus has not taken your sin away if you do it too much..

The idea that one can lose their salvation takes away from the grace of Christ and His work. We are saying that His salvation is conditional on US.....

Remember the priest looked at the perfection of the lamb - not the sin of the person...God sees the Blood..not us..

Sin will destroy us if we continue in it..it is destructive but doesn't match up with Jesus's sacrifice as our perfect lamb.

There seems to be conflicting ideas in scripture..that is a gimmie!

Here is the teaching for Jude..great question!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nECeAofZveM

Salvation is conditional even though some do not like to hear that.

In each verse used to defend a OSAS doctrine has the conditional words: should, may, or might.

The other thing done is pull verses such as John 3:16 to stand alone while. avoiding John 3:21.

Some will fall back to perdition and Paul warns more than anybody about following apostate teaching.

Those in apostate teaching are not saved !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

I love John 3:21...we are in the Light when we receive Jesus as our Lord.

All those mights, should, may, are not conditional words.. They are simply words to say that it is true.. "I write these things unto you so that you may know you have eternal life."..it's not conditional..it's a word to say..you have it!

Here is a better scripture for the view point that one can lose their salvation if they sin....what do you think of this scary one?

2 Peter 2:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Salvation is conditional even though some do not like to hear that.

In each verse used to defend a OSAS doctrine has the conditional words: should, may, or might.

The other thing done is pull verses such as John 3:16 to stand alone while. avoiding John 3:21.

Some will fall back to perdition and Paul warns more than anybody about following apostate teaching.

Those in apostate teaching are not saved !!!

 

[KennethC]

I love John 3:21...we are in the Light when we receive Jesus as our Lord.

All those mights, should, may, are not conditional words.. They are simply words to say that it is true.. "I write these things unto you so that you may know you have eternal life."..it's not conditional..it's a word to say..you have it!

Here is a better scripture for the view point that one can lose their salvation if they sin....what do you think of this scary one?

2 Peter 2:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Come on now even the uneducated know that words such as might, May have, or should are conditional words.

That is standard English !!!

Also John 3:21 says those who DO the Truth comes to the light. It agrees with Luke 6:46-49 where Jesus shows the difference in who has faith routed in Him compared to those who don't.

Hearers only (not doers) the bible says is deceived.

What are you trying to get at from the 2nd Peter passage ???

You are the one who has to explain it away if you believe in osas. If a person remains saved to receive eternal life their ending can not be worse.

 

[Grace777x70]

It's all in the "lens"..if may, might, are conditional and it means you might not...instead of you shall....then most verses about our salvation and new creation would have to be thrown out...Jesus dies so that we might have life..so if we come to Jesus..then we still "might" not have life..what a horrible way to live...our Lord's blood speaks of way better things. It's a completed work.

John 3:21..Jesus is talking to a Pharisee.....religious self-righteousness based thinking...He tells him that He is the Light verse 19...to practice or do the truth is to come to Jesus...when we are born again..stuff changes..

Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light

Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

I just brought Peter up because I was taught in my religious upbringing that the one entangled again here in the 2 Peter meant that they lost their salvation..but we "read" that into it. It actually says they go back to their messy destructive life ( which is stupid! )

To say that sin is stronger then the Blood of our Lord is in my view not honoring. Is living in sin dis-graceful..YES!!..we need to preach the gospel of grace to people..

Paul said to ...grow in the grace and knowledge and grace of our Lord Jesus....the gospel is the power for salvation!

But we respectfully agree to disagree!


But ..hey...we will know the truth when we get to heaven.

Come on now even the uneducated know that words such as might, May have, or should are conditional words.

That is standard English !!!

Also John 3:21 says those who DO the Truth comes to the light. It agrees with Luke 6:46-49 where Jesus shows the difference in who has faith routed in Him compared to those who don't.

Hearers only (not doers) the bible says is deceived.

What are you trying to get at from the 2nd Peter passage ???

You are the one who has to explain it away if you believe in osas. If a person remains saved to receive eternal life their ending can not be worse.

 

[ladylynn]

So..does that mean that sin is stronger then Jesus's blood which already took that sin away?

John said.."Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.".. he doesn't say..well the Blood of Jesus has not taken your sin away if you do it too much..

The idea that one can lose their salvation takes away from the grace of Christ and His work. We are saying that His salvation is conditional on US.....

Remember the priest looked at the perfection of the lamb - not the sin of the person...God sees the Blood..not us..

Sin will destroy us if we continue in it..it is destructive but doesn't match up with Jesus's sacrifice as our perfect lamb.

There seems to be conflicting ideas in scripture..that is a gimmie!

Here is the teaching for Jude..great question!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nECeAofZveM

Having the knowledge that you are loved and accepted supernaturally by a Holy God who found a way to JUDICIOUSLY pay for sin by sending His Holy Righteous pure perfect Son, will clear your mind and heart from all doubt and confusion of how much you don't deserve this gift and yet GOD GAVE IT TO US based on GRACE.

We accept this BY FAITH; for there is NO OTHER WAY to believe this truth., or you will be plagued the rest of your life by doubts from the human heart that cannot understand GRACE that is greater than allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll our sin.