misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[PaulMack]

Only the Scriptures from God has the Truth epostle and fordman. The Catholic Church and the Catholics have walked away from the Truth to follow the World and not God.

Only the Scriptures, not the Traditions of the Catholics, has ALL the Truth. To proclaim a man made theology, Catholicism, has Truths is a lie.

 

[Loco]

Whatever be epostle's request, that is not mine. What I wanted is 1- a more civil discussion from BOTH SIDES (and that recognizes some have not been nasty) 2- a reduction in the number of topics we discuss at a time because I can not follow 50
points at one time. I am not the webmaster or Master of the Universe. It was a simple request, not a demand.

As to knowing hearts, my wife of 30 years who identifies as RC (but adheres to all 5 Reformation solas) and myself from time to time wish each other to die soon. We say this to each other when we want to say something very loving and kind, because we can not imagine anything better than to die quickly as we rest with certainty in our future. Sometimes we laugh over it. "I hope you die soon" are the most loving words we know how to say to one another.

Some in the RC are True Christians, like some in the Anglican, Methodist and liberal Presbyterean (PC-USA) institutions.

I would venture to state that there are more True Christians sitting in RC pews than in PC-USA or Anglican pews, both as raw numbers and %. This is a fundamentalist website. You may find a Presbyterean (PCA) from a BIBLE inerrancy believing denomination like myself here, but all references to what liberal denominations hold are misplaced here. We do NOT allow women pastors, nor do we fund infanticide in the womb. If you wish to advance the discussion, do not smear those here with those totally apostate institutions that ordain lesbians as bishops ect.

If you do, then we can point out the legions of liberal Roman "catholics" who espouse liberation theology, homosexual marriage and the ordination of nuns as priests. Yes, so far the RC "magisterium" has resisted these liberals, but what will you do if "pope" Francis (aka Peter the Roman) gets his way? One of my good friends is an Augustinian monk who was abused and sexually assaulted at 2 different liberal monasteries. Every institution is under assault by liberals. You who are RC better get praying Peter the Roman does not get his way. I really liked Benedict, and he was backstabbed by the lavender mafia.

Now that I trashed the current "pope", can we get back to being civil?

 

[Loco]

Only the Scriptures from God has the Truth epostle and fordman. The Catholic Church and the Catholics have walked away from the Truth to follow the World and not God.

Only the Scriptures, not the Traditions of the Catholics, has ALL the Truth. To proclaim a man made theology, Catholicism, has Truths is a lie.

Correction: sola Scriptura does not mean that only Scripture has Truth. It means that: 1- Scripture is the final authority, so that in whatever it speaks it does so inerrantly (see the Chicago statement on Biblical inerrancy for a more detailed description) 2- that the Scriptures are sufficiently clear on all subjects necessary to salvation (they are perspicuous) and that they contain all that is necessary for salvation (the sufficiency of Scripture).

There is Truth outside of Scripture. I spent 2.5 years studying a single verse, Titus 1:12, which touches on this matter more profoundly than I have time to go into here. You may also read the same in Romans, as Paul nee Saul discusses how both the individual conscience and the evident facts of creation are sufficient to condemn every man, even those not having the benefit of Scripture.

 

[PoetMary]

Here are the problems I've observed in boards such as these:

1. The people who create them are not Catholic, nor are they interesting in understand the origins and rationale for Catholic doctrine. Thus, they end up creating a board that goes something like, "THIS is what Catholics believe...AND IT'S WRONG." They then proceed to be completely unwilling to hear what Catholics actually believe. (This, btw, is a problem on several of the boards where the same arguments are rehashed over and over. There are lots of "THIS is what Word of Faith is about AND IT'S WRONG" and "THIS is what charismatics believe AND IT'S WRONG," etc).

2. People are fairly intractable regarding their own ideas, even if those ideas are false. The non-Catholics who post here will claim that the Catholics refuse to believe the very clear interpretations of scripture that they present. The Catholics will claim that even when they present the actual doctrine of the Catholic Church (from the Catechism, reputable Catholic sources, etc.), the non-Catholics persist in believing their propagandistic ideas. (Again, I've seen this on other boards as well dealing with other doctrinal issues).

3. Nearly everyone ends up engaging in illogical and personalized remarks. In a setting like this, it's very challenging to remain objective and non-emotive. People claim that others are "heretics" or they'll insist that you believe something you don't actually believe or they'll fail to have a clear understanding of their own beliefs, so they'll default to defining themselves by negatives.

4. People forget that you can accede points and still maintain your stance. So, for example, it's very possible for someone to say, "You know, I see what you've posted about Catholic doctrines regarding Mary. If the RCC doesn't really worship Mary, why have I observed so many Catholics doing things that seem 'worshipful' in regard to Mary?" OR "I see what you've posted about the rationale behind calling a man a 'priest,' but I'm still troubled by the fact that only priests can preside over Communion. Shouldn't any Christian be able to bless bread and wine and distribute it for communion?"

OR from the Catholic end, "I see historically why non-Catholics would adopt the doctrine of sola scriptura, but it's still not clear to me how this is actually expressed in the bible" OR "I understand the non-Catholic objection to the sacramental nature of communion. However, I don't get why these folks target the Catholic church when there are lots of groups that believe in the Real Presence."

5. People elevate their doctrinal stance over ethical behavior. So, while the bible is clear about how we should treat others (even others with whom we disagree), people don't consider these verses as important as others. They'll get caught up in a doctrinal issue and give themselves a pass on how they talk to others (and by "others" remember we're mainly addressing our brothers and sisters in Christ here).

6. People presume that others are "preaching" when they are simply presenting their view. When the Catholics present what the doctrinal stance of the church, they're just presenting information. Non-catholics can do what the wish with this information. They can take it in and change their stance, or they can read it, accede a point, and still maintain their view. Information is neutral. It is always up to the individual to determine what to do with the information provided.

 

[Loco]

Since we are on the subject. Suppose that it is granted that without someone to explain the Scriptures it is impossible to understand them sufficiently to be saved. I deny that, but let's suppose it is true that we need an infallible interpreter to speak "ex cathedra". That is of no help at all, because it does not solve the problem of infinite regression.

Suppose one reads a papal bull on a matter.
1- Well, first most such are not "ex cathedra" so they in fact are not inerrant. Only 7 doctrines have been defined ex cathedra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility and that is a big MAYBE since the source of that definition is itself not infallible. Thus the list of what the RC declares infallibly is quite short and none deal with salvation. Everything else is no more infallible than what I write now.
2- Even if you get an ex cathedra bull, you still have to understand it. Where is the infallible interpreter of the bull? Even if an infallible interpreter should arise to help me understand the Bull, I could misunderstand that infallible interpreter also. This sets up an infinite regression.
3- We have not even discussed the MULTIPLE times "popes", "anti-popes", councils and so on have contradicted and anathemized one another. How do we know we have the right "Apostolic Succession"? Such a list has never been provided ex cathedra.

The fact is, one can read "papal" bull all day long and be not one whit closer to Truth than to read Scripture directly. Because of how much bull "popes" have written, and how dense the Latin (even German) produced, it is easier to misunderstand bulls than the much shorter Scripture.

In the end, we all depend on the Grace of God to open our eyes in understanding the Scripture. Because of infinite regression, without the DIRECT intervention of the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, we are ALL lost. That is what it means to be DEAD in your sins and INCAPABLE of seeing the Truth. That is what Christ meant when He spoke of the Holy Con-Fort-er, the Eternal Pneumos, as being like the Wind which no one can see or hold in place, but goes where it wishes.

Those here defending the RC here seem to do so as natural men whose eyes are fixated on human institutions. They do not understand why a baby-baptizing Covenant theology RC Sproul can hold in high esteem and embrace a brother like John McArthur, who will not baptize babies not agrees to much of Covenant theology. They can not fathom why I, a committed fundamentalist live happily for 30 years with an RC wife and how she, in obedience to Scripture, gets her theology by asking me to explain what she already knows in her heart more fully. They see thousands of different denominations and conclude chaos, while failing to realize there are thousands of different RC orders which despise one another while maintaining a public façade of unity.

At least once a month I recite the Nicene creed at my local church which reads "one holy catholic church" and I do so in full agreement. There is but one holy catholic church, and the head is Christ.

 

[Loco]

Well written, poetmary, thank you for providing light without flames.

 

[Utah]

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone

Jesus says otherwise: John 3.16

 

[Utah]

It's not my fault you refuse to read post 790, and you blame the Church because some people you may encounter don't practice their faith. I made that quite clear, but either you refused to read it or didn't understand what I said. You want to have Easter Sunday without Good Friday. typical.

The Catholic patients I serve live in fear BECAUSE of the Catholic church but you blame the people, not the Catholic church. Talk about typical. You must be a priest because your blind, nonsensical defense of the defenseless is beyond shameful.

Simple question requiring only a one word answer: Do non-Catholics have salvation?

 

[Utah]

Catholic bashing is a sin.

On the contrary, we are required to refute heresy.

 

[Magenta]

On the contrary, we are required to refute heresy.

Indeed, Jesus addressed error many times, as did the apostles.

 

[Utah]

He means sola scriptura - the Bible alone. Something that Catholics cannot abide.

No, they become anti-error. They realize Catholic doctrine is false and is leading people to hell. It's not hate speech to have the desire to warn others, because the Bible and Catholic theology are in direct contradiction. They cannot both be right.

I myself, at one point, was a member of a cult - The Worldwide Church of God. Once I got out, I would try to get others out. They are a cult that discourages personal Bible study without running it through the filter of it's founder, Herbert W. Armstrong. Only he, and the "higher ups" had the "authority" to interpret scripture. To question them was heresy. I discovered the truth when I was challenged to simply read the Bible for myself.

And it's the same thing with the Roman Catholic Church. Only the"higher ups" (Pope, magisterium, priests, etc.) can interpret scripture. Personal Bible study apart from the church's "filters" is discouraged as well.

I live in a very Polish Catholic town. I talk to Catholics every single day at work. They never carry a Bible to Church, nor do they read it much. I've been told time and time again, that they can't understand it without being told what it means. And just like dcontroversial pointed out, every one of them that I talk to has a overwhelming fear of death. When I ask them why, they tell me, to the last, that they really don't know if they're going to "make it" because they don't know if they've "done enough" to satisfy divine justice. Their hope is Purgatory, but they also have a horrible dread about that place as well. They dread the fires and sufferings of that place.

I am not exaggerating at all, epostle. They are worn out, unhappy, have anxiety, and have an anger boiling just below the surface. I have a man I talk to very regularly, who has revealed to me that he resents the fact that he has to do so much to get to heaven. He has told me he takes some comfort in speaking to me, and that he wished that what I keep telling him is true, that salvation is a free gift if one would just accept it by faith alone. But he is terrified that if he does that, and it's wrong, all that he has accomplished will be wiped out, and he will be damned. Do you see the pattern? Catholics work, work, work, in the hopes that they've done just enough to "get there". I've seen this man so sick (he's rather old) that he should be in a hospital bed, but he drags himself to church every day, without fail, because of the FEAR he has inside.

Does that sound like "good news" to you?

No. It's not the gospel. It's a heavy yoke. A yoke of the same repetitive prayers and choreographed movements, candle lighting, bead counting, adoration of Mary, sacrificing Christ afresh on the alter every day.

It's not freedom in Christ - it's slavery to a corrupted system.

It's not hateful to warn someone of impending disaster. It's loving. If we didn't care about you, or your fellow Catholics, we would happily watch you walk off that proverbial cliff into a Christ-less eternity.

I'm quoting Budman because this post needs to be seen and read more than once.

 

[Budman]

Jesus says otherwise: John 3.16

And:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Romans 11:6

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Romans 3:28-30

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." Romans 4:5

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."Romans 5:1

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith." Romans 9:30

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2:21

"Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Galatians 3:5-6

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."Ephesians 2:8-9

"And may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." Philippians 8:9

 

[Budman]

I'm quoting Budman because this post needs to be seen and read more than once.

Thanks, Utah. It is indeed high praise coming from one who is theologically light years ahead of me. You have an awesome way of cutting right through the fat and getting to the meat of Christian doctrine.

 

[Budman]

Simple question requiring only a one word answer: Do non-Catholics have salvation?

He, and Fordman, have both admitted they don't know if even Muslims will be in heaven. They deny Jesus is the only way, and all other religions are false.

Basically, they're saying people can be saved apart from Christ.

And if that is so, why did Jesus even go to the cross?

 

[pwrnJC]

Catholicism and all of it's man made agendas can be a stumbling block, but catholics, as a group of people, are not our enemy. The Enemy (satan) is our spiritual enemy and all the confusion he offers.

 

[Utah]

Thanks, Utah. It is indeed high praise coming from one who is theologically light years ahead of me. You have an awesome way of cutting right through the fat and getting to the meat of Christian doctrine.

Thank you, my Brother. But know this, it is I who learn from you much more so, and I am grateful.

Keep sharing God's grace with people in the trenches. May God bless you always.

 

[Utah]

He, and Fordman, have both admitted they don't know if even Muslims will be in heaven. They deny Jesus is the only way, and all other religions are false.

Basically, they're saying people can be saved apart from Christ.

And if that is so, why did Jesus even go to the cross?

I'm literally shaking my head in dismay. Now their nonsense is beginning to make sense.

 

[PoetMary]

He, and Fordman, have both admitted they don't know if even Muslims will be in heaven. They deny Jesus is the only way, and all other religions are false.

Basically, they're saying people can be saved apart from Christ.

And if that is so, why did Jesus even go to the cross?

Hold up on the harsh assessment there. Please allow me to explain something to you about acculturation of Catholics that is quite different than the acculturation of modern non-Catholics. Catholics are taught and fully absorb that ONLY GOD can determine who is saved and who is not. And therein lie some communication problems.

Non-Catholics will often ask things like, "This person claims to believe in God but they don't claim to be a Christian...are they saved?" OR "This person claimed to be a Christian but then committed this terrible sin, are they saved?" And amongst each other they'll argue and decide that these people with be in heaven and these other people will not, or that person is saved and that other person is not.

The stance (and acculturation) of Catholics is that GOD DECIDES who is in heaven and who is not. So if you say to a Catholic, "Will Muslims be in heaven?" A Catholic will answer, "I don't know" NOT because they doubt the bible, but because they are not God and will not speak on God's behalf in this way.

So, to presume that Catholics believe that Jesus is not the ONLY way is not true. What they are allowing for is that Jesus might have many ways of reaching people that we don't realize. In other words, it's the Catholic desire to remain humble and not presume to know things that only God knows. (And, let's be honest, only God does know who is saved and who is not. We are often fooled by people in a variety of ways.)

 

[KenAllan]

So if i read you right Loco you are saying God does NOT have all the Truth?

IF there are Truths outside of the Scriptures that were written by the Holy Spirit, then this means God is not all knowing and not all powerful!

So you Loco believe God is NOT God?

This is the Major problem with people today, they want a god who conforms to what they want their god to be.

 

[epostle]

He means sola scriptura - the Bible alone. Something that Catholics cannot abide.

We cannot abide because it is a false man made unbiblical unhistorical unworkable illogical tradition that has no defense. A new thread on sola scriptura may soon appear. There you can make your case.

No, they become anti-error. They realize Catholic doctrine is false and is leading people to hell. It's not hate speech to have the desire to warn others, because the Bible and Catholic theology are in direct contradiction. They cannot both be right.

That is an opinion, not a truth. One can hold what they think is erroneous, but they don't have to resort to lies that have "0" evidence or support.

I myself, at one point, was a member of a cult - The Worldwide Church of God. Once I got out, I would try to get others out. They are a cult that discourages personal Bible study without running it through the filter of it's founder, Herbert W. Armstrong. Only he, and the "higher ups" had the "authority" to interpret scripture. To question them was heresy. I discovered the truth when I was challenged to simply read the Bible for myself.

And it's the same thing with the Roman Catholic Church. Only the"higher ups" (Pope, magisterium, priests, etc.) can interpret scripture. Personal Bible study apart from the church's "filters" is discouraged as well.

And your church is totally free of it's own "filters"?
How Does the Individual Catholic Approach and Interpret Holy Scripture?

I live in a very Polish Catholic town. I talk to Catholics every single day at work. They never carry a Bible to Church, nor do they read it much. I've been told time and time again, that they can't understand it without being told what it means.

If Catholics in your town go to Mass every Sunday, they will HEAR all the main points of the written Word in one year, and they will HEAR the entire written Word in a 3 year cycle. There is not one word in scripture about READING it. Catholics may not be able to say what the chapter and verses are for, say, the Prodigal Son, but most of us know the story quite well. On the other hand, I must admit that Catholics should take serious notice of Protestants enthusiasm for the Bible.

Bible liberal theology and disbelief and selective belief and ignorance is a widespread problem afflicting just about all brands of Christianity. The Catholic difference is that this crisis has not been allowed to change any traditional dogma or doctrine of the Church. That’s why I am a Catholic: because I want apostolic, traditional, biblical Christianity, passed down pure and undefiled, and unaffected by the whims and fads and fancies of any given age or culture.Catholic (and Protestant) Biblical Illiteracy and Ignorance at an All-Time High?


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And just like dcontroversial pointed out, every one of them that I talk to has a overwhelming fear of death. When I ask them why, they tell me, to the last, that they really don't know if they're going to "make it" because they don't know if they've "done enough" to satisfy divine justice. Their hope is Purgatory, but they also have a horrible dread about that place as well. They dread the fires and sufferings of that place.

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And I pointed out, that you and dcontroversal ignored, that Catholics can know if they are saved (by moral certitude), the fear of death is a universal ( unless you want to try and convince me that all Protestants have no fear of death, which is absurd) and a person who calls themselves a Catholic does not mean they are practicing Catholics. I went into great detail about this and it just gets ignored. #790 Maybe it gets ignored because the answer is too long. But dcontroversal said,

"How can the majority of Catholics who trust the Lord have so much gut-wrenching fear about dying?"

It demanded a long answer. He made a generalization and two false assumptions based on his experience with weak Catholics, and blames their lukewarmth on the Church. It's like saying aspirin doesn't work because it doesn't help the headaches of those who don't take it. #790 Neither one of you can be reasoned with, and if you cannot or will not read my posts, why bother replying?This is what is so frustrating. False assumptions are made based on erroneous preconceptions. Explanations are presented, and the same false assumptions get repeated, explanations are presented, and the same false assumptions get repeated, on and on.

I am not exaggerating at all, epostle. They are worn out, unhappy, have anxiety, and have an anger boiling just below the surface. I have a man I talk to very regularly, who has revealed to me that he resents the fact that he has to do so much to get to heaven. He has told me he takes some comfort in speaking to me, and that he wished that what I keep telling him is true, that salvation is a free gift if one would just accept it by faith alone. But he is terrified that if he does that, and it's wrong, all that he has accomplished will be wiped out, and he will be damned. Do you see the pattern? Catholics work, work, work, in the hopes that they've done just enough to "get there". I've seen this man so sick (he's rather old) that he should be in a hospital bed, but he drags himself to church every day, without fail, because of the FEAR he has inside. Does that sound like "good news" to you?

It is unfair to judge the whole Church because some people are in desperate need of pastoral counselling or have mental conditions. I hope he follows your salvation formulae, (which is essentially Catholic to begin with) but I don't think it's going to make any difference. Ask him if he as ever heard of the Sacrament of the Sick. Nothing is more comforting for dying Catholics than that.

I spent many years in the health care field, and many years in various Protestant communities. Misery is no respecter of persons. I have also seen that "joy, joy, joy" in many evangelical/fundamentalist/born-again communities, I found it to be contrived, shallow and plastic, one reason why I left Protestantism.

No. It's not the gospel. It's a heavy yoke. A yoke of the same repetitive prayers and choreographed movements, candle lighting, bead counting, adoration of Mary, sacrificing Christ afresh on the alter every day.

Sorry, those are misconceptions. All you see is the externals. In all of history there has never been a holy Catholic?

It's not freedom in Christ - it's slavery to a corrupted system.

That's what I mean by blind prejudice and bigotry. It could qualify as hate speech but your ignorance gets you off that hook.

It's not hateful to warn someone of impending disaster. It's loving. If we didn't care about you, or your fellow Catholics, we would happily watch you walk off that proverbial cliff into a Christ-less eternity.

Again, has there ever been a holy Catholic in all of history? Accompanied by signs and wonders?
Oh, I forgot. Total depravity. right...