The 1 John 1:9 Lie: More New.Modern.Hyper Grace blasphemy

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well it looks like they weren't wrong about everything.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

The difference being that the gnostics thought that they could do whatever they wanted and still be saved. The bible is clear that only those who do the will of GOD will be saved.

So they were very wrong. So is anyone who thinks the same.

 

[JGIG]

I thought I wrote this here, but I didn't:


1 John 1 is not describing a believer - John is talking to unbelievers there, and fellowship that he's talking about is fellowship with believers - that unbelievers don't have unless they come into Christ!John isn't saying that if a believer sins they lose fellowship with God.

When John uses the term, 'we' in chapter 1, it's a polite way of speaking to unbelievers - we've all been where they are - we've all had to acknowledge our sin and confess - agree with God - our sinful state and our need for Christ and His Work. And when we do (did), we are (were - an accomplished fact) forgiven and cleansed. He is faithful to forgive us of all of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness \o/. There is no caveat there that indicates 'until we sin again'.

It is at that point that we go from walking in the dark to walking in the light. John uses those terms interchangeably with death and life - it's his style of writing. We don't go back and forth from light to dark and back to light again based on our confession and further forgiveness of sins. All of our sins were dealt with at the Cross. We have entered into life.

And then after John wraps up the first chapter, he addresses the Body of Christ, "My little children . . . "

Not complicated, really.

-JGIG

You have no evidence for your claims. It's just made up stuff to suit your agenda. What part of the bible did you get that John was speaking to unbelievers, or that 'we' is a polite way to refer to unbelievers? It's ridiculous. You always badger those who oppose your view to provide scripture and verse. How about you do the same? Or are you a hypocrite?

I did, here:

I think most of us believe all of the above - but where is 1 John 1? 1 John 1 is not talking about salvation. It is talking about one's WALK - It is talking about fellowship, relationship, communion, a REALLY close relationship.
"that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you SO THAT YOU TOO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP with us and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete." What things are they writing about: fellowship, relationship.

Why even talk about this at all if there is no need to ask for forgiveness? Why is this portion of scripture even in here? We don't need it so we can just rip it out for it has no purpose . . .

Fellowship with who???

John is writing to those whose 'walk' is in darkness, and because it is in darkness, they have neither fellowship with 'US', believers, or with God, who believers DO have fellowship with.

-JGIG

But it is a long thread, easy to miss stuff .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Nothing, Jesus saves us totally. He uses means though like an Incarnation and a blood stained cross.
And in sanctification he uses trials, His Word and His Spirit to mold us into His image.
Why do you ask as it has little to do with the OP?

It has everything to do with the OP, because the wages of sin is death, not loss of fellowship.

Or another angle in this thread is that 'God has His limits'. Okay. What are those 'limits' for the believer. How much sin is too much? If the wages of sin (unquantified, unqualified - sin is sin and carries a single penalty according to Scripture) is death, and we MUST confess our sins as believers to continue to receive forgiveness, then we must confess and ask for forgiveness for every single sin - or we will die eternally, for that is the penalty.

-JGIG

 

[Jimbone]

That is exactly what we do. Do you see "conviction" in that?

Obviously not in the sense that you take "conviction" to mean, but I don't take conviction to mean I'm kicked out of the family and unsaved. I do however feel the Holy Spirit convicting me means that I am now (because of Him and being indwelt by the Spirit, NOT because of me) a LOT more sensitive to any sin I do, and He empowers me to avoid doing it repeatedly, in a way I was never capable of as the "old man" I was. Is that clear enough for "Ol' Willie's" approval?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I did, here:
But it is a long thread, easy to miss stuff .

-JGIG

You dodged the issue. You haven't supported your opinion with scripture. Hard to have any credibility when you hammer people to provide scripture, and you don't.

 

[JGIG]

The gnostics also thought that grace couldn't be taken away from them. See post #1.

The bible witnesses that only those who do the will of GOD will be saved.

Grace can't be taken away from anyone. It's available to all who believe in Christ.

What is the will of God after the Cross?

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 John 3)​

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually,18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (from 2 Thes. 5)

​

15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. (from 1 Pet. 2)

​

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleasesGod our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (from 1 Tim. 2)

​

40" For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (from Jn. 6)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Only Christ's work on earth is finished. It is written that he intercedes for us now with his blood. That has never stopped from the moment he entered heaven with his blood to present it to GOD the father. He is seated at GOD's right hand, which is the reality of the mercyseat in the temple, that no priest could sit on. That shadow pointed to the true throne of forgiveness in heaven. You are ignoring many scriptures that point to this reality that Christ is operating now as our high priest cleansing the sins of his people.

Please provide for us the Scripture that says that Christ is continually presenting (offering) His Blood to the Father.

We are not ignoring the many Scriptures that point to the reality of Christ operating as our Perfect, Permanent High Priest. What you're ignoring is that His Priesthood is DIFFERENT THAN AND SUPERIOR to the priests in the Old Covenant:

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to Godthrough him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people.

He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (from Heb. 7)​

It can not get much clearer than that. What you choose to do with it, well, that's between you and God.

-JGIG

I'll paraphrase because you should know what the verses are are.

Christ appeared with his blood after his resurrection to the disciples.

The slaughtered lamb was seen in heaven by John in the midst of the throne.

The blood cleanses us from all sin. Present tense, not past. The blood can't cleanse us if it's not presently in heaven.

We have a high priest in heaven who continually ministers on our behalf. No high priest could enter the holiest place of the temple without blood. This also proves that Christ entered into heaven with his blood.

Do you really think that his blood just disappeared?

Sorry. Your paraphrase of concepts you claim the Scriptures are relaying with no references isn't going to cut it.

Try again.

The Scriptures I posted (and you purposefully cut out of my quote) are clear.

Your missing several key points from the Scriptures posted above, or you wouldn't have written what you wrote.

-JGIG

 

[Jimbone]

Grace can't be taken away from anyone. It's available to all who believe in Christ.

What is the will of God after the Cross?

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 John 3)​

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually,18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (from 2 Thes. 5)

​

15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. (from 1 Pet. 2)

​

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleasesGod our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (from 1 Tim. 2)

​

40" For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (from Jn. 6)​

-JGIG

Does "it can't be taken away" mean the same as "rejected". If we want it then I agree it can NEVER be taken from us, but I just can not believe that one would be dragged into heaven if they turned from Him in rejection and no longer wanted Him. I also believe we still have the free will to do that after salvation. Honestly I see this as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but it is semantics and hypotheticals I'm talking about now, and I definitely don't want to find out personally.

 

[JGIG]

John 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

The Holy Spirit needs a mouth piece in order to speak and reprove the world of sin, that mouth is given to the Lords disciples.

Oh, are you still of the world?

-JGIG

Nope. Those who are born again from heaven above are no longer of the world.

John 17:14-16 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.[SUP]15 [/SUP]I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

So you don't believe that the Spirit convicts believers of sin?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The difference being that the gnostics thought that they could do whatever they wanted and still be saved. The bible is clear that only those who do the will of GOD will be saved.

So they were very wrong. So is anyone who thinks the same.

How is that different from what you believe?

Don't you believe that as long as you confess and ask for forgiveness, you, in theory, could also do whatever you want to do?

That's the thing about this confession for forgiveness bit - it's every bit as much of a 'license to sin' as you guys say 'Hyper-grace' is!

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
It's pointless to continue this discussion if you are so adamant to deny that Christ operates as a high priest in heaven with his blood. Israel's sins were not forgiven until the blood was taken into the holiest place, which in Christ's case is heaven. You can say Christ was offered once for sin (which is true) until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't address the fact of where atonement occurs. It didn't occur at the cross; it occurs in heaven. And that is something that continues always.

Sorry. Your paraphrase of concepts you claim the Scriptures are relaying with no references isn't going to cut it.

Try again.

The Scriptures I posted (and you purposefully cut out of my quote) are clear.

Your missing several key points from the Scriptures posted above, or you wouldn't have written what you wrote.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You dodged the issue. You haven't supported your opinion with scripture. Hard to have any credibility when you hammer people to provide scripture, and you don't.

Wow.

Really?

Do I need to repost the text of 1 John here?

Okay:

That which was from the beginning,which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, andtestify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeedour fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1)​

Now the relevant posts:

Originally Posted by JGIG

I thought I wrote this here, but I didn't:


1 John 1 is not describing a believer - John is talking to unbelievers there, and fellowship that he's talking about is fellowship with believers - that unbelievers don't have unless they come into Christ!John isn't saying that if a believer sins they lose fellowship with God.

When John uses the term, 'we' in chapter 1, it's a polite way of speaking to unbelievers - we've all been where they are - we've all had to acknowledge our sin and confess - agree with God - our sinful state and our need for Christ and His Work. And when we do (did), we are (were - an accomplished fact) forgiven and cleansed. He is faithful to forgive us of all of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness \o/. There is no caveat there that indicates 'until we sin again'.

It is at that point that we go from walking in the dark to walking in the light. John uses those terms interchangeably with death and life - it's his style of writing. We don't go back and forth from light to dark and back to light again based on our confession and further forgiveness of sins. All of our sins were dealt with at the Cross. We have entered into life.

And then after John wraps up the first chapter, he addresses the Body of Christ, "My little children . . . "

Not complicated, really.

-JGIG

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

You have no evidence for your claims. It's just made up stuff to suit your agenda. What part of the bible did you get that John was speaking to unbelievers, or that 'we' is a polite way to refer to unbelievers? It's ridiculous. You always badger those who oppose your view to provide scripture and verse. How about you do the same? Or are you a hypocrite

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

I think most of us believe all of the above - but where is 1 John 1? 1 John 1 is not talking about salvation. It is talking about one's WALK - It is talking about fellowship, relationship, communion, a REALLY close relationship.
"that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you SO THAT YOU TOO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP with us and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete." What things are they writing about: fellowship, relationship.

Why even talk about this at all if there is no need to ask for forgiveness? Why is this portion of scripture even in here? We don't need it so we can just rip it out for it has no purpose . . .

Originally Posted by JGIG

Fellowship with who???

John is writing to those whose 'walk' is in darkness, and because it is in darkness, they have neither fellowship with 'US', believers, or with God, who believers DO have fellowship with.

-JGIG



Hope that clears it up .

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How is that different from what you believe?
Don't you believe that as long as you confess and ask for forgiveness, you, in theory, could also do whatever you want to do?
That's the thing about this confession for forgiveness bit - it's every bit as much of a 'license to sin' as you guys say 'Hyper-grace' is!

-JGIG

I believe that we must live righteous, holy lives. I don't have the liberty to do whatever I want, because I am bound to do GOD's will. So your caricature is completely false.

 

[JGIG]

Grace can't be taken away from anyone. It's available to all who believe in Christ.

What is the will of God after the Cross?

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 John 3)​

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually,18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (from 2 Thes. 5)

​

15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. (from 1 Pet. 2)

​

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleasesGod our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (from 1 Tim. 2)

​

40" For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (from Jn. 6)​

-JGIG

Does "it can't be taken away" mean the same as "rejected". If we want it then I agree it can NEVER be taken from us, but I just can not believe that one would be dragged into heaven if they turned from Him in rejection and no longer wanted Him. I also believe we still have the free will to do that after salvation. Honestly I see this as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but it is semantics and hypotheticals I'm talking about now, and I definitely don't want to find out personally.

The answer to your question is in the highlighted portion above .

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

This is an excellent place to put this video in to describe some things going on...

[video=vimeo;11804054]https://vimeo.com/11804054[/video]

 

[JGIG]

Sorry. Your paraphrase of concepts you claim the Scriptures are relaying with no references isn't going to cut it.

Try again.

The Scriptures I posted (and you purposefully cut out of my quote) are clear.

Your missing several key points from the Scriptures posted above, or you wouldn't have written what you wrote.

-JGIG

.
It's pointless to continue this discussion if you are so adamant to deny that Christ operates as a high priest in heaven with his blood. Israel's sins were not forgiven until the blood was taken into the holiest place, which in Christ's case is heaven. You can say Christ was offered once for sin (which is true) until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't address the fact of where atonement occurs. It didn't occur at the cross; it occurs in heaven. And that is something that continues always.

It's pointless to continue if you won't read the posts that answer the questions you ask and read the Scriptures that are posted.

One more time . . .

Originally Posted by JGIG

Please provide for us the Scripture that says that Christ is continually presenting (offering) His Blood to the Father.

We are not ignoring the many Scriptures that point to the reality of Christ operating as our Perfect, Permanent High Priest. What you're ignoring is that His Priesthood is DIFFERENT THAN AND SUPERIOR to the priests in the Old Covenant:

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to Godthrough him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people.

He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (from Heb. 7)

It can not get much clearer than that. What you choose to do with it, well, that's between you and God.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
No, it doesn't clear it up because all you're doing is expressing your opinion (which you've simply received from other people) without demonstrating its basis in scripture. Where in scripture does it say that John was writing to gnostic unbelievers? It doesn't. That's purely your opinion. All you've done is quote 1 John and offer your opinion and act like it's the truth. Truth has to be supported by scripture.

Wow.

Really?

Do I need to repost the text of 1 John here?

Okay:

That which was from the beginning,which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, andtestify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeedour fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1)​

Now the relevant posts:

Originally Posted by JGIG

I thought I wrote this here, but I didn't:


1 John 1 is not describing a believer - John is talking to unbelievers there, and fellowship that he's talking about is fellowship with believers - that unbelievers don't have unless they come into Christ!John isn't saying that if a believer sins they lose fellowship with God.

When John uses the term, 'we' in chapter 1, it's a polite way of speaking to unbelievers - we've all been where they are - we've all had to acknowledge our sin and confess - agree with God - our sinful state and our need for Christ and His Work. And when we do (did), we are (were - an accomplished fact) forgiven and cleansed. He is faithful to forgive us of all of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness \o/. There is no caveat there that indicates 'until we sin again'.

It is at that point that we go from walking in the dark to walking in the light. John uses those terms interchangeably with death and life - it's his style of writing. We don't go back and forth from light to dark and back to light again based on our confession and further forgiveness of sins. All of our sins were dealt with at the Cross. We have entered into life.

And then after John wraps up the first chapter, he addresses the Body of Christ, "My little children . . . "

Not complicated, really.

-JGIG

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

You have no evidence for your claims. It's just made up stuff to suit your agenda. What part of the bible did you get that John was speaking to unbelievers, or that 'we' is a polite way to refer to unbelievers? It's ridiculous. You always badger those who oppose your view to provide scripture and verse. How about you do the same? Or are you a hypocrite

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

I think most of us believe all of the above - but where is 1 John 1? 1 John 1 is not talking about salvation. It is talking about one's WALK - It is talking about fellowship, relationship, communion, a REALLY close relationship.
"that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you SO THAT YOU TOO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP with us and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete." What things are they writing about: fellowship, relationship.

Why even talk about this at all if there is no need to ask for forgiveness? Why is this portion of scripture even in here? We don't need it so we can just rip it out for it has no purpose . . .

Originally Posted by JGIG

Fellowship with who???

John is writing to those whose 'walk' is in darkness, and because it is in darkness, they have neither fellowship with 'US', believers, or with God, who believers DO have fellowship with.

-JGIG



Hope that clears it up .

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's pointless to continue if you won't read the posts that answer the questions you ask and read the Scriptures that are posted.

Do you believe that Christ's blood is now in heaven?

 

[JGIG]

The difference being that the gnostics thought that they could do whatever they wanted and still be saved. The bible is clear that only those who do the will of GOD will be saved.

So they were very wrong. So is anyone who thinks the same.

How is that different from what you believe?

Don't you believe that as long as you confess and ask for forgiveness, you, in theory, could also do whatever you want to do?

That's the thing about this confession for forgiveness bit - it's every bit as much of a 'license to sin' as you guys say 'Hyper-grace' is!

-JGIG

I believe that we must live righteous, holy lives. I don't have the liberty to do whatever I want, because I am bound to do GOD's will. So your caricature is completely false.

I'm not caricaturizing anything - I'm asking you how what you believe is so different than what you say the Gnostics believe in practicality.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Wow.

Really?

Do I need to repost the text of 1 John here?

Okay:

That which was from the beginning,which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1)​

Now the relevant posts:

Originally Posted by JGIG

I thought I wrote this here, but I didn't:


1 John 1 is not describing a believer - John is talking to unbelievers there, and fellowship that he's talking about is fellowship with believers - that unbelievers don't have unless they come into Christ!John isn't saying that if a believer sins they lose fellowship with God.

When John uses the term, 'we' in chapter 1, it's a polite way of speaking to unbelievers - we've all been where they are - we've all had to acknowledge our sin and confess - agree with God - our sinful state and our need for Christ and His Work. And when we do (did), we are (were - an accomplished fact) forgiven and cleansed. He is faithful to forgive us of all of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness \o/. There is no caveat there that indicates 'until we sin again'.

It is at that point that we go from walking in the dark to walking in the light. John uses those terms interchangeably with death and life - it's his style of writing. We don't go back and forth from light to dark and back to light again based on our confession and further forgiveness of sins. All of our sins were dealt with at the Cross. We have entered into life.

And then after John wraps up the first chapter, he addresses the Body of Christ, "My little children . . . "

Not complicated, really.

-JGIG

Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

You have no evidence for your claims. It's just made up stuff to suit your agenda. What part of the bible did you get that John was speaking to unbelievers, or that 'we' is a polite way to refer to unbelievers? It's ridiculous. You always badger those who oppose your view to provide scripture and verse. How about you do the same? Or are you a hypocrite

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

I think most of us believe all of the above - but where is 1 John 1? 1 John 1 is not talking about salvation. It is talking about one's WALK - It is talking about fellowship, relationship, communion, a REALLY close relationship.
"that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you SO THAT YOU TOO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP with us and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete." What things are they writing about: fellowship, relationship.

Why even talk about this at all if there is no need to ask for forgiveness? Why is this portion of scripture even in here? We don't need it so we can just rip it out for it has no purpose . . .

Originally Posted by JGIG

Fellowship with who???

John is writing to those whose 'walk' is in darkness, and because it is in darkness, they have neither fellowship with 'US', believers, or with God, who believers DO have fellowship with.

-JGIG



Hope that clears it up .

-JGIG

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No, it doesn't clear it up because all you're doing is expressing your opinion (which you've simply received from other people) without demonstrating its basis in scripture. Where in scripture does it say that John was writing to gnostic unbelievers? It doesn't. That's purely your opinion. All you've done is quote 1 John and offer your opinion and act like it's the truth. Truth has to be supported by scripture.

I'm pretty sure that I have NOT stated that I thought John was writing to Gnostic unbelievers. It is clear that he was writing to unbelievers, though, whatever the flavor, because they did not have fellowship with those who WERE believers.

That's what JOHN SAYS:

1That which was from the beginning,which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.​

And many folks do believe that John was addressing Gnostics because of his emphasis on the physicality of Christ and his witness of the physicality of Christ. They were ethereal in their views, and he was making the reality of a physical, incarnated God in Christ clear - to whoever was reading his letter.

-JGIG