Holiness or sinner

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The answer for these both groups of people is the same - preach the gospel of the grace of Christ to them....for in IT is the power of God for salvation to every one who believes....in IT - the righteousness of God is revealed. When we get the revelation of what Christ has done for us as Christians that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. - we see who we really are and are then transformed by the Holy Spirit.

The answer will be for all things to preach Christ to people..."My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.



Yes it's the evangelists who teach holiness and repentance. If someone calls it legalistic I wonder if they have been in a powerless legalistic church all their life without a relationship with God and then got so happy when they finally met Him through grace teaching. My mom is quick to say: oh please stop, all that legalism. Grace!! Then I tell her: yes but you don't go around sinning because you already have a good foundation. Since childhood she went to a Dutch reformed church and wasn't born again, had no relationship with God, but the 10 commandments were taught. Don't throw the foundation out. If you don't tell a blatant unbelieving sinner what sin is and only: it doesn't matter what you do, you're eternally secure then you get what you see in Holland: they don't go to church, they always watch porn without even feeling guilty, live in fornication, use drugs and don't even want to go for prayer to get set free and believe it's okay and God loves them.
 
The answer for these both groups of people is the same - preach the gospel of the grace of Christ to them....for in IT is the power of God for salvation to every one who believes....in IT - the righteousness of God is revealed. When we get the revelation of what Christ has done for us as Christians that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. - we see who we really are and are then transformed by the Holy Spirit.

The answer will be for all things to preach Christ to people..."My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Yes, just don't mix it with legalism or lawlessness. Then you stay in the middle of the road and nothing can go wrong.
 
Boy how mankind has watered down the gospel.

Scripture says we are lost in a sea called the "kosmos" and that we are being drug down by satan, the ruler of this world. We are in a state of hopelessness, and drowning, and we do not even know it, We think we are swimming along prety well, when we do not see the waterfall up ahead that is fatal. If we are not rescued before we hit those falls. It will be fatal, and all hope will be lost.

God tried to show us how desperate our situation is, by giving us the law. A few commands, And said, here, You confirm and obey every one of these commands, And you can get out of the water by yourself without having to be rescued.

And if you could not do this, This would be how you can make up for it, A man called a high priest had to take an innocent animal. Slit its throat, and poor its blood over an alter.. And it could not be just any animal. It had to be a chosen animal. without blemish (innocent)

yet here we have people who say, No no no, thats not right, You can be righteous God wants you to be holy, And he is offering you a house to live in, Take him up on it, and do not leave this house, and you will be rescued from the river after your life is over (eternal life is given after we die, if we did everything that God wanted us to do, obeyed him continuously, Kept having so called faith in him, and walked the walk)

The thing they forgot., They still have that law hanging over their heads. That law, Which they could not fulfill, that law, which God said, would bring a curse on them if they did not obey ever jot and tittle. Will condemn them, because they failed to take the sacrifice of the innocent one, who would die for everyo one of their sin, and rescue them from the sea of life which is leading us to destruction.

They water down the law. To make them appear holy. They water down the law, to make them appear religious, and right, They take the sins they do have, and hide them (do them in private) or ignore them altogether as being inconsequential (I just committed a boo boo, it is ok, God will forgive me, I just need to repent again) as if that repentance is going to equal the animal sacrifice that was commanded to redeem sin..

Its sad, they get angry at us who have been rescued by Gods living sacrifice, and have been sent back through the gates of hell to help God rescue other people (including them) because we tell them their standard is wrong, They are still in the river headed for destruction and they do not even know it. That if they do not repent, they will die when the reach the end, Only this death will be eternal. That they have watered down the law. James said you commit the least of all sin, your guilty of the entire law. And because if it, you are cursed. Their so called Boo Boo's and Oopsies, are so putrid to an all righteous God, Gods justice demands punishment, and that punishment will be carried out. Nothing can stop it.

Either the lamb, slain on Calvary, or their own eternal death, Someone will pay the price for those oopsies, and they should not take them so lightly.

The anger persists, We lie about them, We slander them. We Love sin, and want an easy way out (we all know how HARD it was to make that step of faith, it was one of the hardest things we ever did, To admit guilt, to admit defeat and to admit hopelessness goes against the grain of every human dna cell,,) and we just hate them,


No people we love you, thats why we are trying to share Gods love with you. Open your eyes, See the danger you are in, Repent, and ask God to rescue you before it is too late.
 
Yes, just don't mix it with legalism or lawlessness. Then you stay in the middle of the road and nothing can go wrong.

then salvation could never be lost,

Because legalism is destroyed, And licentiousness is defeated..

and we would all be brothers and sisters, and these arguments would cease to exist.

Sadly, that will never happen.

 
I agree...but if we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and people don't say.."What are you saying we can sin all we want?"...if we are not being accused of that like Paul was ....then we have not preached the true gospel..

Make no mistake about it..the true grace of God is scandalous and it is offensive to the D.I. Y. self-righteous/holiness mindset. And when you preach it...you will be accused of being lawless and antinomian....if not..then we have not preached Paul's gospel...it's the nature of the beast....:)


mlj_2.jpg


Yes, just don't mix it with legalism or lawlessness. Then you stay in the middle of the road and nothing can go wrong.
 

then salvation could never be lost,

Because legalism is destroyed, And licentiousness is defeated..

and we would all be brothers and sisters, and these arguments would cease to exist.

Sadly, that will never happen.


I was thinking: yeah.. finally!
until I read the last sentence lol.
It's possible. Then you have unity and if the world sees we're one they know that He sent us and we have revival. Smith Wigglesworth prophecied it.


During the next few decades there will be two distinct moves of the Holy Spirit across the church in Great Britain. The first move will affect every church that is open to receive it and will be characterized by a restoration of the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The second move of the Holy Spirit will result in people leaving historic churches and planting new churches. In the duration of each of these moves, the people who are involved will say 'This is the great revival'. But the Lord says 'No, neither is this the great revival but both are steps towards it.

WORD AND SPIRIT
When the new church phase is on the wane, there will be evidenced in the churches something that has not been seen before: a coming together of those with an emphasis on the Word and those with an emphasis on the Spirit.

When the Word and the Spirit come together, there will be the biggest movement of the Holy Spirit that the nation, and indeed the world, has ever seen. It will mark the beginning of a revival that will eclipse anything that has been witnessed within these shores, even the Wesleyan and the Welsh revivals of former years. The outpouring of God's Spirit will flow over from the UK to the mainland of Europe, and from there will begin a missionary move to the ends of the earth.*
 
I agree...but if we preach the gospel of the grace of Christ and people don't say.."What are you saying we can sin all we want?"...if we are not being accused of that like Paul was ....then we have not preached the true gospel..

Make no mistake about it..the true grace of God is scandalous and it is offensive to the D.I. Y. self-righteous/holiness mindset. And when you preach it...you will be accused of being lawless and antinomian....if not..then we have not preached Paul's gospel...it's the nature of the beast....:)


mlj_2.jpg

But Paul also preached that God is not mocked and don't be deceived, to make more clear what he meant. Those Jews had to keep the law themselves and now all of a sudden the gentiles and big sinners could get saved and holy.
You can go on sinning as much as you like? I heard Andrew Wommack say something like that but don't know how he said it. Romans 4 and 5 I can't get that out of the text.
 
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Paul would preach Christ to them and who they we are in Christ. Even the Corinthians that were going to the temple prostitutes for sex and, those taking each other to court..those being divisive...those getting drunk at communion and eating all the food before the poor people could get there to eat too.

Paul told them who they were in Christ..then corrected their behavior..he didn't say you were all unsaved now..
..he told them who they were in Christ..saints..they have His righteousness, holiness
..etc.


1 Corinthians 1:1-9 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
[SUP]31 [/SUP] so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."




But Paul also preached that God is not mocked and don't be deceived, to make more clear what he meant. Those Jews had to keep the law themselves and now all of a sudden the gentiles and big sinners could get saved and holy.
You can go on sinning as much as you like? I heard Andrew Wommack say something like that but don't know how he said it. Romans 4 and 5 I can't get that out of the text.
 
But Paul also preached that God is not mocked and don't be deceived, to make more clear what he meant. Those Jews had to keep the law themselves and now all of a sudden the gentiles and big sinners could get saved and holy.
You can go on sinning as much as you like? I heard Andrew Wommack say something like that but don't know how he said it. Romans 4 and 5 I can't get that out of the text.

Andrew Wommack is like the other "grace" teachers who believe that a born again person cannot become unborn, no matter how much they sin, because their spiritual nature is eternal. This idea is gnosticism, pure and simple. The gnostics believed that the knowledge of their spiritual nature elevated them above, and saved them from, the material world. Christian gnostics think what is born can't be unborn; a circumcised heart can't become uncircumcised; eternal life can't end because it's eternal; a free gift can't be taken away; (I know there's more, just can't remember them).
 
Ah here it is.

Grace: The Power Of The Gospel - Andrew Wommack Ministries International
God has put*in*every single person who has ever breathed an intuitive knowledge that they are a sinner and that they deserve rejection instead of acceptance.*You don’t need to tell people this; they already know it.

I don't agree with this, because there are enough practicing christian homosexuals here, let alone the unbelieving ones who see absolutely no problem with it, who are convinced that God is okay with it and they preach that or living in fornication, that's just 2 consenting adults, no problem. It's normal.

Ever heard atheists talk about God? He's a moral monster and we are good people.
 
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What about those Christians that are practicing malice?..and they too think it is ok with God as we see here on CC so often.

Malice and homosexuality are all works of the flesh just like all the other ones listed in Gal 5.

Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work only...not by our works that we do afterward we come to Christ..that is a false gospel.

How we live will affect our lives here for sure and we still need to preach the gospel to people..the Lord will chastise them and bring them around to believe the truth and let the life of Christ transform them.

People that sin are not living under grace.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.



Ah here it is.

Grace: The Power Of The Gospel - Andrew Wommack Ministries International
God has put*in*every single person who has ever breathed an intuitive knowledge that they are a sinner and that they deserve rejection instead of acceptance.*You don’t need to tell people this; they already know it.

I don't agree with this, because there are enough practicing christian homosexuals here, let alone the unbelieving ones who see absolutely no problem with it, who are convinced that God is okay with it and they preach that or living in fornication, that's just 2 consenting adults, no problem. It's normal.
 
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Ah here it is.

Grace: The Power Of The Gospel - Andrew Wommack Ministries International
God has put*in*every single person who has ever breathed an intuitive knowledge that they are a sinner and that they deserve rejection instead of acceptance.*You don’t need to tell people this; they already know it.

I don't agree with this, because there are enough practicing christian homosexuals here, let alone the unbelieving ones who see absolutely no problem with it, who are convinced that God is okay with it and they preach that or living in fornication, that's just 2 consenting adults, no problem. It's normal.

Ever heard atheists talk about God? He's a moral monster and we are good people.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [SUP]21 [/SUP]because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; [SUP]29 [/SUP]being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[SUP][c][/SUP] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, [SUP]30 [/SUP]backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [SUP]31 [/SUP]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[SUP][d][/SUP] unmerciful; [SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.



Sometimes it just takes a little bible study.

Paul tells us that all sinners, (yes even gays) have no excuse, because they know it is sin, but they hide it (ignore it)


Paul also says there is no such things as an athiest.
 
Andrew Wommack is like the other "grace" teachers who believe that a born again person cannot become unborn, no matter how much they sin, because their spiritual nature is eternal. This idea is gnosticism, pure and simple. The gnostics believed that the knowledge of their spiritual nature elevated them above, and saved them from, the material world. Christian gnostics think what is born can't be unborn; a circumcised heart can't become uncircumcised; eternal life can't end because it's eternal; a free gift can't be taken away; (I know there's more, just can't remember them).


And the ironic thing is, you're a modern day Judaizer. You mix grace with works of the Law.
 
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Ah here it is.

Grace: The Power Of The Gospel - Andrew Wommack Ministries International
God has put*in*every single person who has ever breathed an intuitive knowledge that they are a sinner and that they deserve rejection instead of acceptance.*You don’t need to tell people this; they already know it.

I don't agree with this, because there are enough practicing christian homosexuals here, let alone the unbelieving ones who see absolutely no problem with it, who are convinced that God is okay with it and they preach that or living in fornication, that's just 2 consenting adults, no problem. It's normal.

Ever heard atheists talk about God? He's a moral monster and we are good people.

This has been a BIG one for me. Especially at my particular church. Living in the Netherlands, you might also see the same acceptance and welcoming of Homosexuals I see. And, frankly, it bothers me.

But, my preacher has shown me how he feels about it, and I can't just ignore his view. He agrees that it is a sin. And he, like Wommack feels they already know that, and that it is not our place to browbeat them about it.

But, I have a bit different view. While I agree that a struggling homosexual should not be ostracized, I also feel the situation of openly living a homosexual lifestyle should not be just ignored.

I'd be lying to you if I said this isn't a problem in my heart. I don't feel, at all, right just ignoring these situations. But, at the same time, I cannot justify the feeling I have of wanting to be their own personal "queer police."

I'm working through this one, right now. (And I wish I didn't have to.)
 
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Put your money where your mouth is and explain how I mix grace with law.


You add works to salvation. Works are simply observance of the Law. You assert, time and time again, that if one doesn't live a certain way, they forfeit their salvation.

Clear enough?
 
Andrew Wommack is like the other "grace" teachers who believe that a born again person cannot become unborn, no matter how much they sin, because their spiritual nature is eternal. This idea is gnosticism, pure and simple. The gnostics believed that the knowledge of their spiritual nature elevated them above, and saved them from, the material world. Christian gnostics think what is born can't be unborn; a circumcised heart can't become uncircumcised; eternal life can't end because it's eternal; a free gift can't be taken away; (I know there's more, just can't remember them).

As much as you've rehearsed saying them? I'm disappointed. LOL
 
Amen Willie...

I think we need to rely on the Holy Spirit for each situation is different. Certainly they should not be in leadership if they are blatantly saying it's ok to do that.

Then we can extrapolate on this and say "What about those that are blatantly malicious and open slanderers of others in the body of Christ?"...should these be allowed to be in leadership too?

Being a homosexual is just as destructive to our witness as being malicious and slandering is...or vice versa..it's funny..the homosexual ( unrepentant one ) sees the malicious slanderers as evil...and the malicious slanderers see the homosexuals as being evil...in reality they are both the same in God's eyes.

I'm sure the Lord will lead the leaders in each place as to what to do with each case. I agree though that this whole issue needs some working through...

This has been a BIG one for me. Especially at my particular church. Living in the Netherlands, you might also see the same acceptance and welcoming of Homosexuals I see. And, frankly, it bothers me.

But, my preacher has shown me how he feels about it, and I can't just ignore his view. He agrees that it is a sin. And he, like Wommack feels they already know that, and that it is not our place to browbeat them about it.

But, I have a bit different view. While I agree that a struggling homosexual should not be ostracized, I also feel the situation of openly living a homosexual lifestyle should not be just ignored.

I'd be lying to you if I said this isn't a problem in my heart. I don't feel, at all, right just ignoring these situations. But, at the same time, I cannot justify the feeling I have of wanting to be their own personal "queer police."

I'm working through this one, right now. (And I wish I didn't have to.)
 
There are 2 kinds of works-based salvationists...

1) - those that front load the gospel with works.."YOU" must do all these things before you can get saved..like JW's. ( front and back loading as in fees in a mutual fund that you have to pay..some are up front..some at the end )

2) - those that back-load the gospel with things "YOU" must do to maintain salvation.

This one is more subtle because there is a life in Christ for those that trust in His finished work and they will change by the Spirit within them...not by their own D.I.Y. self-effort/righteousness/holiness. They take "that life" in Christ and make that a work you must do for salvation to be completed and go to heaven.

Salvation is by grace through faith alone in Christ's finished work for us...all others are false gospels...

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?



You add works to salvation. Works are simply observance of the Law. You assert, time and time again, that if one doesn't live a certain way, they forfeit their salvation.

Clear enough?
 
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