So is the general consensus that demon possession in the Bible was mental illness?

[JesusIsAll]

I remember that movie. "Them." With Roddy Piper.

Looking up "Them," it's a movie about big ants, you'd have to imagine a plot involving a royally spoiled picnic. The movie we were talking about is "They Live."

 

[Depleted]

"Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society, it seems to reason that demon possession, as recorded in scripture, is actually a reference to the mentally ill. Unless you think demons purposely only possess people in poor, uneducated communities...."

No m'aam!!.....Not at all!! (in fact) QUITE, the opposite, holds true!!.......

Blue name means guy. Pink name means gal. Nogard isn't a ma'am. Honest.

 

[Depleted]

I think one issue that would arise is that medicine has only limited success with things like autism... so I've heard.

Rather offensive. (I know. You didn't mean it to be offensive.) Autism is neither demon possession nor a mental illness. It's merely a different way of interacting with the world.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Looking up "Them," it's a movie about big ants, you'd have to imagine a plot involving a royally spoiled picnic. The movie we were talking about is "They Live."

Oh yeah, that was the name! I think there was a part two called Them...

edit: nope, it was called They Live Part Two. haha!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You've made me laugh because I've said many times to someone about some movie that I saw the gospel in it or saw Jesus in it and they just looked at me like I was crazy!

 

[jaybird88]

i been looking online for demon possession examples from across the globe so i can compare the western nations against the poor "uneducated" 3rd world nations. the problem i am running into, 90% of all the possessions and exorcisms examples are pretty much usa and europe.

 

[JesusIsAll]

...they just looked at me like I was crazy!

Great! That's usually a sign you've said or done something right. Wonder if the Chinese make those sunglasses? They make everything else. Need to go checkout eBay...

 

[coby]

I've heard stories of possession from many different sources -- a few even from my father from when he was praying with others over someone. Sometimes there is a distinction between possession and oppression; in oppression the demon does not have full control, but may manifest when it is pinpointed for eviction. I have seen people spontaneously manifest. If you want to know about it, speak to people who work in deliverance ministries.

There are a few possibilities to explain why this doesn't seem as common in the west, other than a narrow-minded assumption that everyone who ever considered it real, was ignorant.

1. It is downplayed directly or indirectly due to the naturalist/rationalist focus of western culture. Stories of real supernatural occurrences are ignored because they are not scientifically verifiable and people don't want to know about things that can't be scientifically explained (i.e. something people don't have power over)

2. It is not as easy for it to occur due to the spiritual environment -- western cultures tend to be exposed to Christianity, in which some ministries still work on clearing out demonic influence from anyone that comes to them.

3. It is strategic in a sort of spiritual 'Cold War' sense. Deception works to their advantage in the most powerful part of the world where human intellect and humanistic values are emphasized. This is also the information age and we are living in the most media rich environment on the planet. If the enemy 'plays his hand' and reveals his presence, it could be recorded and go viral and we have the christian culture of the West which the public could easily turn to when they know the supernatural is real. So it's better for the enemy to keep a low profile and let people continue building up mental barriers against the reality of the supernatural.

And I suppose 4. would be any combination of the above.

There is definitely strategy involved when there is a spiritual war taking place throughout human history. Anyway, your assumption that demon possession doesn't occur at all in educated communities could make a good example of some of these points. If the enemy lets you think you've won, to the point you might even doubt their existence (some Christians do) then you won't be in any position to stop them if they decide to do something.

Yes and the people I saw with T.B. Joshua had gone to witch doctors. There's also occult stuff here, but no witch doctors. My father in law had push pins in his body for power. He was from Indonesia. They don't do that here.

 

[slave]

Just checking in before going to bed, and wanted to commend Slave for this insightful response. I noticed as well that certain ailments in Scripture were sometimes attributed to demon possession and other times just to general sickness and health. What you're suggesting is that if someone was inflicted with a perpetual illness or other calamity, it could be due to natural causes from poor health OR it could be a demon.

This is interesting, because it raises a lot of questions. If you have two people with the same ailment, one due to natural causes and one due to demon possession, would modern day medicine be able to cure both people? It's understandable how Jesus would know the difference, but how did the" common folk" know the difference between the two? It seems like it would be hard to tell.

With the Pentecostal/charasmatic movement arising in the early 20th century, the religious landscape is tilting more toward the spiritual again. Spiritual gifts, being slain in the spirit, and warfare with demons are growing practices among Pentecostals and especially growing among Latin American believers. I'll never forget the conversation I had with an acquaintance at college. This was back when I was still a believer myself. The guy mentioned how he woke up in the middle of the night to find a demon in his room. He went on to say how he prayed and fought with the demon, ultimately getting it to leave. I was fascinated with this story because if I ever were to wake up and just see what appeared to be a demon in my room, I would scream and run out of the house, call the cops, and so forth. But this guy, apparently unfazed that a supernatural apparition was in his room, calmly duked it out with the creature. Out of the two reactions, mine would seem more logical, but his is more common. When I heard others say similar stories (as I had several Assembly of Godian acquaintances in college), they all acted in similar ways. Instead of running from the room, calling for help, or taking a picture on their phone for evidence, they just kind of get in this zone and duke it out. Of course, more conservative Christians view spiritual warfare as a purely mental, personal thing that charismatics tend to incorrectly project into the natural world.

What was the point of that tangent? Simply that the mix between the supernatural and natural is somewhat complicated in Christianity, which is what your post alludes to in a way, and there is even some dispute on it between denominations.

Anyway, I appreciate the response. Very insightful.

You mentioned the "Common-folk." And my discernment was that you were referring to all humans in comparison to God and not just the non-Christian demographics, would I be accurate in assessing that? So, both Christian and non-Christians have a rough go of it in the area of demon involvement right?

As believers enter the true realm of the Spirit, immediately they shall see how empty they themselves are, for nothing in them can impart life to others or, in this case, work havoc upon the enemy.

Instinctively they will therefore reckon on God. When we see ourselves as crucified and I no longer live, yet I do live, but only in the disposition that Christ lives thru me, as me, then I see how clear our battle with the demon realm is to conquer it and understand it. For, by faith, I allow God authority thru Christ to place control over anything outside of Himself thru me, and as a result of my child-like faith comes peace my way. But that's only a grandiose Hallmark card if I don't make that work on the streets right? So, how do we do that? "Pray at all times in the Spirit." (Ephesians 6:18) "Oh yeah, that thing I put on the shelf until I can't come up with any other logical solution." Right?! Well, many fall under that line of reasoning, even Christians, But if that is not how we are praying we must be praying in the flesh. We should not open our mouths too hastily upon approaching God. On the contrary, we pray as God directs us to pray in things yet seen clearly by the habit of the Holy Spirit's prior deposits. We ask for needs, but live on the basis of God's will placed in us. So, from the position derived from the fleshly attempts I understand your point in using the term "Common-folk," People basically unequipped to get the job done, lacking insightful wisdom and power to fight a greater foe. But the mistake is to suggest Christians are also in that boat outside of just the non-believers.

Not only should we pray with the Spirit; we should "Pray with the Mind also..." (1 Corinthians 14:15), the two must work in a simulcast order. A believer receives in his spirit what he needs to pray and understands in his mind what he has received, the Spirit accepts the burden of prayer while the mind formulates that burden in prayerful words. Only in this way is the prayer of a believer perfected. And this happens live in front of demons as well, because "even though I walk thru the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me." (Psalms 23:4), Woe to those who must face a demon who has not yet practiced walking according to the Spirit, for Jesus teaches us life is of practical actualities. The quality of a man's prayers is determined by the state of his living. How can a fleshly person offer a Spiritual prayer? But, as Jesus warned, let me say this as well, Christians do not necessarily pray Spiritually either, for unless man is watchful he also will fall into the flesh.

So, healing the possessed and not being influenced by them are indeed possible for the child-like faith of the Common-folk, laid in Christ Jesus Our Lord. But we need to exercise our spirituality; our walk of faith. I say demons come out of anyone whom you are destroying because I fear God, and by it, then, fear nothing else. Let not the gruesome scenes of antagonistic fear and evil power frighten you, for God is ruler of it, but be diligent to stay in Christ or the gruesome can turn to an Angel of light without notice, stumbling His Saints.

 

[Dan_473]

Rather offensive. (I know. You didn't mean it to be offensive.) Autism is neither demon possession nor a mental illness. It's merely a different way of interacting with the world.

how is it offensive? I certainly didn't mean it to be offensive.

the experiment that nogard suggested involved comparing the success rate of medicine on two people with possibly different conditions.

I was saying that medicine has a low success rate with some things, such as autism. this to me is a fact.

this seems like another reliable fact,
"People of African descent can have a natural sun protection factor (SPF) of up to 13 as compared to 3-4 for Whites."
[DOCTOR'S ORDERS] Yes, Black People DO Get Sunburn - Wellness & Empowerment - EBONY

simply a fact.

(the op mentioned autism, so I figured facts about it would be relevant to nogard's experiment.)

 

[Depleted]

how is it offensive? I certainly didn't mean it to be offensive.

the experiment that nogard suggested involved comparing the success rate of medicine on two people with possibly different conditions.

I was saying that medicine has a low success rate with some things, such as autism. this to me is a fact.

this seems like another reliable fact,
"People of African descent can have a natural sun protection factor (SPF) of up to 13 as compared to 3-4 for Whites."
[DOCTOR'S ORDERS] Yes, Black People DO Get Sunburn - Wellness & Empowerment - EBONY

simply a fact.

(the op mentioned autism, so I figured facts about it would be relevant to nogard's experiment.)

Because his original (false) premise was comparing mental illness to demon possession? If it was just about medicine, we could have gone with metformin too, but who thinks diabetes medication with demon possession and mental illness? This is what I'm saying. Autism isn't related to demon possession or mental illness anymore than diabetes is.

(And Nogard isn't using common sense, but you are. There isn't much purpose to try and be reasonable with someone who doesn't have a grasp on reason yet. I trust you do. That too is the difference. And there goes my attempt at tact.)

 

[ladylynn]

No, I haven't read all of the The Screwtape Letters. If was something like Dante, which I had to read in school, I just couldn't get into, but not for any reasons involving the quality of C.S. Lewis' work. It was just a personal matter of not being into heavy fictionalizations of anything theological, but, again, not disparaging the merits, this a personal thing. It's sort of been my specialty, focus, to analyze what the enemy is doing in the real world, or in the Bible, same thing. But thank you for the mention, as perhaps it's something, being older, worth revisiting? Lord knows I used to read novels, galore, of little to no real merit. Thank you!

Now, I did read Ben Hur, which I thought was amazing, much better than even one of the greatest films ever made.

Yikes I have never read Dante but have heard about it and it is not my cup of tea. And much of C.S. Lewis writings kind of goes over my head. But the Screwtape Letters were very interesting when read some years ago. I'd rather watch the movies of these books. Loved the Hobbit series but glad to fast fwd the scenes with that weaselly Smeegle creature. DVDs are good that way., you don't have to endure those parts.

Also enjoyed the BBCs version of the Chronicles of Narnia on DVD. You maybe surprised that you would enjoy "The Screwtape Letters" as it's all about what you say you like to analyse what the enemy is doing in today's world.

I watched Ben Hur with Charlton Heston too but did not read the book. That was an awesome movie. Those chariots were brutal looking.

 

[gotime]

Just checking in on this issue. As you know, demon possession is mentioned quite a bit in the new testament. When it's symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness.

Demon possession is not isolated to the New Testament, or even to Christianity, but the one commonality is that it is believed in generally uneducated, third world societies (note that I am referring to the belief that specific people in your community are demon possessed and that they can be exorcised. Not just the abstract belief of demon possession. The idea that demon possession is possible is not the same as believing, along with the rest of the community, that your neighbor two doors down is currently demon possessed.)

Given the fact that demon possession doesn't happen in an educated, first world society, it seems to reason that demon possession, as recorded in scripture, is actually a reference to the mentally ill. Unless you think demons purposely only possess people in poor, uneducated communities....

As a Pastor in the first world I can attest to the fact that Demon possession and demonic activity is very much alive in the first world. Only more hidden. People are ashamed to admit it as they will be labeled crazy. But its real.

 

[ukok102nak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gQ8D2-8s_M

:smoke: when weve heard the woman who was in demon possession from this movie begun to whisper unto the air
then she starting to say something that cannot be comprehend

or by uttering words on our native dialects :haha:
and we havent notice it really :dontknow:
:blush: but only when a young gurl suddenly ask everyone
:now: "narinig nyo ba yun"

:8) which could be mistaken as one of those words speaketh by many different spirits such as those many unknown languages
to an ordinary people like us for we are not very familiar to many languages like ancient phoenixian dialects (ancient aramaic)
or words that were long forgotten by humans
etc etc blah blah blah

as the story goes on please
let us tell all of you what that woman in demon possesion as it says
which the young gurl had told to everyone who were watching this movie ( we watched this movie in cd/dvd )
:rofl: starting at 0.52 seconds within this video clip
"PAPATAYIN NATIN SILA" ← MEANING WE WILL KILL THEM

:happy: just enjoy and watch the show my brothers and my sisters
and lets us observed all the things with pure conscience
and ever living knowledged of good and
evil that can bring a good outcome to what is to be done
and shall not be done anymore as long as our mind and heart could keep it until that day as long as we can .... .

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[Dan_473]

Because his original (false) premise was comparing mental illness to demon possession? If it was just about medicine, we could have gone with metformin too, but who thinks diabetes medication with demon possession and mental illness? This is what I'm saying. Autism isn't related to demon possession or mental illness anymore than diabetes is.

(And Nogard isn't using common sense, but you are. There isn't much purpose to try and be reasonable with someone who doesn't have a grasp on reason yet. I trust you do. That too is the difference. And there goes my attempt at tact.)

nogard suggested an experiment.

in order for the experiment to work, the experimentor (nogard, I assumed) must find a condition that they feel fits the biblical symptoms of possession, but he considers mental illness.

the op, "When it's [demon possession] symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness."

so, my response to nogard was based what he believes.

does that make sense?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yikes I have never read Dante but have heard about it and it is not my cup of tea. And much of C.S. Lewis writings kind of goes over my head. But the Screwtape Letters were very interesting when read some years ago. I'd rather watch the movies of these books. Loved the Hobbit series but glad to fast fwd the scenes with that weaselly Smeegle creature. DVDs are good that way., you don't have to endure those parts.

Also enjoyed the BBCs version of the Chronicles of Narnia on DVD. You maybe surprised that you would enjoy "The Screwtape Letters" as it's all about what you say you like to analyse what the enemy is doing in today's world.

I watched Ben Hur with Charlton Heston too but did not read the book. That was an awesome movie. Those chariots were brutal looking.

Yes, Ben Hur is an awesome movie. Dante sucks, was some sort of child cruelty, made me hate theological fiction at an early age, and I concluded, as a faith matter, that I didn't want to see truth adulterated and, in Dante's case, so tainted.

I'd highly recommend Ben Hur as just a great book. It's not the same as the movie. In the book, Ben Hur is not quite as large, not as sure of himself, is a more multidimensional, human character, with inner conflicts and youthful frailties you can relate to. The plot is also different, in some significant ways I'll not go into, would be real spoilers, but to say there's a subplot involving one of the wise men and his daughter going on, and the Marsala story different, Ben Hur not so completely innocent, probably the movie altering some things and leaving out a lot for time constraints. For the book to be done properly would likely require something on the order of I, Claudius in length.

But Ben Hur is entertaining, with a very powerful ending, like the movie, but reading the last chapters, in one sitting the first time, the ending left me with a strong joy and exaltation that lingered, a conclusion beyond the movie. Don't know if you know this, but Lew Wallace was an atheist, set out to write a novel that debunked Christ. Researching in the Bible, he came to see the truth therein and came to know the Lord, Ben Hur quite a different book than he intended. It's one of my all time favorite books, have read it a couple times. Before reading the book, I'd thought the movie would be a hard act to follow, but it's the opposite, believe it or not, the book plot much more dense and detail a movie can't yield.

 

[Chuckt]

Alot of people would argue that there is a difference between demon posession and posessing a demon, Ya know to feel jealous of another person is evil, to be full of fear is evil, to love money is evil, to lust after, to masterbate is evil, to be addicted to sex drugs or gambling is evil.. Have you ever had one of these problems but really can't stop it no matter what? In my own experience I believe there is much more demonic activity going on in the world than just in mental hospitals! I have been delivered from alot of spiritual strongholds... Does that mean I was demon posessed or did I posess a demon?

Was hitler demon posessed? Was obama bin laden demon posessed.. the mafia, were they demon posessed. The lady in the bible had a spirit of divination but she was still able to function in a way that seemed normal? What about people that believe in other religions? The bible says that satan has blinded the eyes of those who dont believe... Demons are everywhere. We should not be niave to think they are only in the people that look crazy or are in a mental asylum. Bless u all

I believe people are calling "works of the flesh" demonic activity and Christians cannot be possessed so what they are doing is excusing their activity by saying, "the devil made me do it" and instead of repenting, they spend time casting an imaginary demon out.

 

[JesusIsAll]

nogard suggested an experiment.

in order for the experiment to work, the experimentor (nogard, I assumed) must find a condition that they feel fits the biblical symptoms of possession, but he considers mental illness.

the op, "When it's [demon possession] symptoms are described, it sounds a lot like autism or other forms of mental illness."

so, my response to nogard was based what he believes.

does that make sense?

I think I see what you're saying. In any event, it has to come down to belief, as there's no instrumentation or whatever to prove or disprove spiritual operatives, that part of the discussion just a sinkhole. Proof comes down to subjectivity, faith, spiritual discernment, or some evidence observed in or by affected parties. But there are no doubt demons at work, in a pervasive way, in this world.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I believe people are calling "works of the flesh" demonic activity and Christians cannot be possessed so what they are doing is excusing their activity by saying, "the devil made me do it" and instead of repenting, they spend time casting an imaginary demon out.

The devil surely gets blamed for a lot that humans are "doing fine" with, on their own, but Christians can be influenced by demons. I've seen some things that left no doubt in my mind a Christian must be vigilant in spiritual matters, as verses in Ephesians 6 plainly attest to. Would agree on the possession aspect as not being a threat to a Christian, the Holy Spirit not dwelling with a demon(s), but this doesn't mean that everything in your consciousness is immune, that evil spirits can't try to lead one astray, that the devil doesn't sometimes need resisting.

 

[Utah]

Do I have proof. Show me a video, news article, or anything that documents a case of demon possession in the modern first world similar to those depicted in Bible times.

A spaceship just landed in my hometown.

Show me a video, news article or anything that documents I'm wrong.