The "Rapture"?
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P
All you did was post verses about his return with his bride after the GT.
We are debating the timing of the rapture,not his return with his saints.
You erroneously confuse this by not understanding what you are reading.
Note that in your verses ANGELS GATHER,NOT JESUS. ALSO,THEY ARE GATHERING FROM HEAVEN,NOT EARTH.
Note also,there are no dead being gathered.
But,if you can find a verse depicting, or possibly pointing to a post trib rapture,i commend you,for you will be the first one ever to do so.
P
Ok,then the RAPTURE ,from your own logic.is pretrib.
rev 14 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
See that? under your deal that cannot be,because you have the dead raised AFTER THE GT.
So postrib rapture,under your template,means the alive gathering by Jesus,during the GT,precedes the dead being raised.
rev 14 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
See that? under your deal that cannot be,because you have the dead raised AFTER THE GT.
So postrib rapture,under your template,means the alive gathering by Jesus,during the GT,precedes the dead being raised.
The saints are raptured up into the air. But look at the whole passage. There is no mention of a rapture before the Tribulation, just like the book of Revelation. Just like the rest of the Bible.
Look at the context. During the tribulation, Jesus' listeners aren't supposed to believe claims of 'here is Christ, or there.' Why is that necessary if His followers already get raptured up?
I've been doing it over and over again. I Thessalonians tell us that the dead in Christ rise first before we who are alive and remain are raptured to meet the Lord in the air. I Corinthians 15 tells us that they that are Christ's shall be made alive at His coming.
Don't you agree that the coming of the Lord happens at the end of the tribulation?
Look at the context. During the tribulation, Jesus' listeners aren't supposed to believe claims of 'here is Christ, or there.' Why is that necessary if His followers already get raptured up?
I've been doing it over and over again. I Thessalonians tell us that the dead in Christ rise first before we who are alive and remain are raptured to meet the Lord in the air. I Corinthians 15 tells us that they that are Christ's shall be made alive at His coming.
Don't you agree that the coming of the Lord happens at the end of the tribulation?
I've done it over and over and over and over again. You haven't responded. I've asked you how you reconcile pre-trib with II Thessalonians 1. It shows Jesus coming back and executing vengeance on them that know not God. When He comes back, we see that He gives the church rest. Your belief has the church already gone at this time. It shows that He comes to be glorified in His saints. Continue reading the book and the man of sin is destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming. All of this goes against pre-trib, which has the church gone before Jesus comes back.
I Corinthians 15 also tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive at his coming. The rapture happens AFTER this (right after) according to I Thessalonians 4. That contradicts pre-trib. If Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation, then these verses support post-trib.
Again, how do you reconcile these verses with pre-trib? Can you even try? Or do you just ignore the scriptures and stick with stuff like allegorical interpretations of 'come up hither'.
I Corinthians 15 also tells us that they that are Christ's will be made alive at his coming. The rapture happens AFTER this (right after) according to I Thessalonians 4. That contradicts pre-trib. If Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation, then these verses support post-trib.
Again, how do you reconcile these verses with pre-trib? Can you even try? Or do you just ignore the scriptures and stick with stuff like allegorical interpretations of 'come up hither'.
Maybe you should explain your own interpretation rather than just jumping to your own conclusion.
It seems to me that you are making some assumptions:
1. That Revelation is exactly chronological (and no parts of it are concurrent).
2. That 'reap' has to do with resurrection, even though the passage says 'blessed are the dead that die...' and the pressing of the winepress results in blood to the horses bridals.
My approach is to take the clear passages of scripture to get the framework of what scripture teaches and use that to figure out the allegorical passages. You seem to interpret the allegorical passages and ignore the direct statements of scripture.
But it looks like your interpretation of this would be more along the lines of mid-trib or almost-at-the-end-of-the-trib.
It seems to me that you are making some assumptions:
1. That Revelation is exactly chronological (and no parts of it are concurrent).
2. That 'reap' has to do with resurrection, even though the passage says 'blessed are the dead that die...' and the pressing of the winepress results in blood to the horses bridals.
My approach is to take the clear passages of scripture to get the framework of what scripture teaches and use that to figure out the allegorical passages. You seem to interpret the allegorical passages and ignore the direct statements of scripture.
But it looks like your interpretation of this would be more along the lines of mid-trib or almost-at-the-end-of-the-trib.
Hi Brother presidente,
In your post #307 you mention Rev 14:20, notice that the winepress is trodden without the "city".
The blood of course is symbolic, yes?
The city being Jerusalem, wouldn't that mean that God's anger is taken out on the natural branches until they are restored to the Holy city?
The first angel reaping v 14-16, would be Jesus (Son of man v14), at His resurrection, reaping the O.T. saints.
In your post #307 you mention Rev 14:20, notice that the winepress is trodden without the "city".
The blood of course is symbolic, yes?
The city being Jerusalem, wouldn't that mean that God's anger is taken out on the natural branches until they are restored to the Holy city?
The first angel reaping v 14-16, would be Jesus (Son of man v14), at His resurrection, reaping the O.T. saints.
P
I will just have to let you have your doctrine.
You can not see where a harvest DURING THE GT eliminates the POSSIBILITY of a FIRST RESURRECTION OF DEAD PRECEDING those harvested BEFORE THE END OF THE GT???
What was your score in mathematics?
You completely gloss over it.
Will await your next dodge
You can not see where a harvest DURING THE GT eliminates the POSSIBILITY of a FIRST RESURRECTION OF DEAD PRECEDING those harvested BEFORE THE END OF THE GT???
What was your score in mathematics?
You completely gloss over it.
Will await your next dodge
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Acts 1 where they are told as you see Him go so shall you see Him come again. The church was present and saw Jesus taken up into the clouds.
Zech is the prophecy to Israel where they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced. They, Israel, will see Him descend in great power and glory just the way they expected Him the first time.
The church looks for Christ to come in the clouds.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Zech is the prophecy to Israel where they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced. They, Israel, will see Him descend in great power and glory just the way they expected Him the first time.
The church looks for Christ to come in the clouds.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
P
They were harvested at Jesus resurrection.
It is recorded that Abraham was in paradise,which was parallel to hell. Jesus declared it.
He told the thief that was where he was going. Then Jesus "took captivity captive" at his resurrection,and the people of Jerusalem recognized those risen.
This is first fruits resurrection.
There is nothing inferred that the ripe fruit in rev 14 are dead.
It is recorded that Abraham was in paradise,which was parallel to hell. Jesus declared it.
He told the thief that was where he was going. Then Jesus "took captivity captive" at his resurrection,and the people of Jerusalem recognized those risen.
This is first fruits resurrection.
There is nothing inferred that the ripe fruit in rev 14 are dead.
E
How can we expect to discuss scripture with someone with all these attitudes and attacks.
And your not even right. You have not proven anything, People have shown you how that can be resolved
I am still waiting for why Jesus would kill and judge all non believers, and rapture all saints, Then rule over a world where no one is left..
Post trib (with the exception of amillenialism) is one of the least supported doctrines in scripture
And people getting mad and angry and attacking people will not change that.
We can all agree to disagree,, And it seems in this thread, that is what some people need to do.
You should explain your own interpretation first. I'm left to guess at how you interpret the passage.
I'm guessing you see 'harvest' as the resurrection. What is your reasoning behind this if that is the case.
I'm also guessing that you see chapter 14 as referring to specific events that precede what happen in chapter 15, rather than as a summarized section that describes events that are flushed out in more detail in later chapters. We are dealing with visions, not something strictly literal.
Again, my approach is to take the more literal, direct teachings of scripture, like Jesus' teachings in Matthew 24 and statements of Paul in the epistles to understand the sequence of events, and then interpret allegorical and apocalyptic passages to fit with the direct statements of scripture.
The pre-trib approach seems to be to completely ignore direct statements of scripture, not respond to posts that quote them, to assume pre-trib and then interpret allegorical and other passages in a pre-trib way. Then the allegorical and apoctalyptic passages are presented as evidence.
Could you explain how the resurrection occurs prior to Jesus coming when Paul wrote that they that are Christ's shall be made alive 'at His coming'? You do see the contradiction there, don't you?
Can you reconcile your pre-trib beliefs with II Thessalonians which has the church receiving rest at Jesus' coming, the unbelieving having vengeance executed upon them at Jesus' coming, Jesus coming to be glorified in His saints at Jesus' coming, and the man of sin being destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming?
A's and B's in high school and college and a couple of advanced degrees that rely somewhat on mathematical ability. What was your score?
I'm guessing you see 'harvest' as the resurrection. What is your reasoning behind this if that is the case.
I'm also guessing that you see chapter 14 as referring to specific events that precede what happen in chapter 15, rather than as a summarized section that describes events that are flushed out in more detail in later chapters. We are dealing with visions, not something strictly literal.
Again, my approach is to take the more literal, direct teachings of scripture, like Jesus' teachings in Matthew 24 and statements of Paul in the epistles to understand the sequence of events, and then interpret allegorical and apocalyptic passages to fit with the direct statements of scripture.
The pre-trib approach seems to be to completely ignore direct statements of scripture, not respond to posts that quote them, to assume pre-trib and then interpret allegorical and other passages in a pre-trib way. Then the allegorical and apoctalyptic passages are presented as evidence.
Could you explain how the resurrection occurs prior to Jesus coming when Paul wrote that they that are Christ's shall be made alive 'at His coming'? You do see the contradiction there, don't you?
Can you reconcile your pre-trib beliefs with II Thessalonians which has the church receiving rest at Jesus' coming, the unbelieving having vengeance executed upon them at Jesus' coming, Jesus coming to be glorified in His saints at Jesus' coming, and the man of sin being destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' coming?
A's and B's in high school and college and a couple of advanced degrees that rely somewhat on mathematical ability. What was your score?
Who is made alive? All men or just those who are in Christ?
Paul is addressing believers and not the unbeliever in this chapter. Some contrasting but really written to believers.
The GWT is the resurrection of the dead unto eternal condemnation and casting into the lake of fire. No believers standing at this resurrection only lost souls.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Paul is addressing believers and not the unbeliever in this chapter. Some contrasting but really written to believers.
The GWT is the resurrection of the dead unto eternal condemnation and casting into the lake of fire. No believers standing at this resurrection only lost souls.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Ahwatukee,
The Great Tribulation is NOT GOD'S WRATH, it is the massive attack on Israel by Islamic forces (and their allies) to the North. God's Wrath comes in response and comes to halt the attack, otherwise no flesh would be left alive. The Great Tribulation CAUSES GOD'S Wrath!!!
Try to follow this passage as it makes this point crystal clear. PLEASE READ THIS:
Eze 38: [SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken:
Gog comes up against Israel and then God gets angry (WRATH). Then God brings judgment against Gog. The Tribulation is Gog coming against Israel. This point is confirmed in the NT:
Luke 21: [SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
You see? God warns His People to Flee Judea, the not the planet. Flee Judea!!! When the Abomination of Desolation is seen God's People in Israel are to flee!!
Mat 24: [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Why are they to flee? Because the Great Tribulation AKA "Massive Attack on Israel" is about to begin.
[SUP]21[/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
God has to shorten the attack or no Jew will be left alive so for His Elect, He cuts those days short.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
At the same time the Man of Sin attacking Israel is going to claim to be above the God of Israel. He is going to deceive the Palestinians and Muslims living in Israel. He will try to deceive the Jews too and perhaps will deceive some but we know he cannot deceive the ELECT Jews.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
The Elect. who know God's Word, will recognize the Abomination of Desolation so they will heed the warning and flee. This is why Christ must gather them back to Him when He arrives.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
God's wrath comes after the attack on Israel. This is why they are terrified when they see the "Sign of the Son of Man"
Rev 6: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The Great Tribulation is NOT GOD'S WRATH, it is the massive attack on Israel by Islamic forces (and their allies) to the North. God's Wrath comes in response and comes to halt the attack, otherwise no flesh would be left alive. The Great Tribulation CAUSES GOD'S Wrath!!!
Try to follow this passage as it makes this point crystal clear. PLEASE READ THIS:
Eze 38: [SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken:
Gog comes up against Israel and then God gets angry (WRATH). Then God brings judgment against Gog. The Tribulation is Gog coming against Israel. This point is confirmed in the NT:
Luke 21: [SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
You see? God warns His People to Flee Judea, the not the planet. Flee Judea!!! When the Abomination of Desolation is seen God's People in Israel are to flee!!
Mat 24: [SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Why are they to flee? Because the Great Tribulation AKA "Massive Attack on Israel" is about to begin.
[SUP]21[/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
God has to shorten the attack or no Jew will be left alive so for His Elect, He cuts those days short.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
At the same time the Man of Sin attacking Israel is going to claim to be above the God of Israel. He is going to deceive the Palestinians and Muslims living in Israel. He will try to deceive the Jews too and perhaps will deceive some but we know he cannot deceive the ELECT Jews.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
The Elect. who know God's Word, will recognize the Abomination of Desolation so they will heed the warning and flee. This is why Christ must gather them back to Him when He arrives.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
God's wrath comes after the attack on Israel. This is why they are terrified when they see the "Sign of the Son of Man"
Rev 6: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
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