-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
If I could include 500 pages in this thread dedicated solely to statistics, everyone would still dismiss them, because they don't fit with the general opinion of adoption.
On the other hand, if I began posting fabricated statistics that support the claims that adoption is a wonderfully loving and godly thing, then everyone would agree with the findings.
Quest
On the other hand, if I began posting fabricated statistics that support the claims that adoption is a wonderfully loving and godly thing, then everyone would agree with the findings.
Quest
T
I think the name of this thread should be "adoption, pros and cons". We adopted my 6 year old sister Vanessa and well she isn't an angel child. She has listening problems and gets into things a lot so there are risks when adopting. The good thing is you are helping a child that doesn't have a home and that needs a loving family. I would say yes to adopting, just keep in mind that there are risks to adopting so just be ready in case something happens.
M
You may be right that some people would cling to their own views in the face of evidence to the contrary, when discussing issues as serious and sometimes personal as this one it's tough to set aside your own experience and be truly objective.
I think you have this problem just as readily as anyone else, which is probably why multiple threads have gone into multiple pages with very little ground conceded.
None of us can know for certain the ratio of postive and necessary adoptions, i.e. abandonment, versus the number of forced/coereced adoptions you speak of in such detail.
It seems talking about statics is pointless because unless they include every single case that has ever existed we will never know just how 'good' or 'evil' adoption really is, especially when it is so loosely defined.
I started a thread on this a while ago that led to your passionate attempt to enlighten us all and I respect that you have been trying to shine a light on a serious form of abuse, but what I have learned is kind of what I suspected right from the start, I have watched your videos and I remain convinced that there are times adoption is a good thing, just not the best thing.
But as we all know in life sometimes the best thing just isn't available and it is important to give great credit to those who have adopted under the right circumstances, recognise the great good they have done and generosity they have shown.
It is also important to remember that there is a dark side and not be seduced by the idea that babies are a commodity there to be bought and paid for by anyone who would like one.
In the end if we all take a step back and try to leave our pre-conceptions outside we'd probably all agree, I feel satisfied I've considered every argument you've put forward, I concede that you are right, you are just not right all of the time.
I think you have this problem just as readily as anyone else, which is probably why multiple threads have gone into multiple pages with very little ground conceded.
None of us can know for certain the ratio of postive and necessary adoptions, i.e. abandonment, versus the number of forced/coereced adoptions you speak of in such detail.
It seems talking about statics is pointless because unless they include every single case that has ever existed we will never know just how 'good' or 'evil' adoption really is, especially when it is so loosely defined.
I started a thread on this a while ago that led to your passionate attempt to enlighten us all and I respect that you have been trying to shine a light on a serious form of abuse, but what I have learned is kind of what I suspected right from the start, I have watched your videos and I remain convinced that there are times adoption is a good thing, just not the best thing.
But as we all know in life sometimes the best thing just isn't available and it is important to give great credit to those who have adopted under the right circumstances, recognise the great good they have done and generosity they have shown.
It is also important to remember that there is a dark side and not be seduced by the idea that babies are a commodity there to be bought and paid for by anyone who would like one.
In the end if we all take a step back and try to leave our pre-conceptions outside we'd probably all agree, I feel satisfied I've considered every argument you've put forward, I concede that you are right, you are just not right all of the time.
C
What would you do with the kids who somehow end up without parents to care for them? Some biological parents- aren't. They provided the biology but not the nurture. Some are abusive, some are sick themselves with drug addiction, etc. Some just don't want a kid. Some parents die and there's no one else to care for their children.
Should these children grow up in an institution?
Should these children grow up in an institution?
Yes Michael, you are correct. I did get over passionate for a time, but I did later agree with April's post and tried to come to a 50/50 compromise on the issue that I think was very fair. However, even that compromise was ruthlessly attacked by various people (not yourself).
As for you, I have been quite impressed with your character in every thread. You are expressing some frustration with me right now, but not in a godless way as I am apt to sometimes do.
Most of my statistics are from the birthmother's themselves. I tend to trust them as they have no reason to claim that they suffered a forced coercion if they indeed did not. But regardless of where I get my statistics, I don't see how anyone could profit from putting forth a deception.
If these birthmoms really wanted to get rid of their children and wash their hands of them, they have every reason to clap their hands for joy and forget all about it. Yet, they are there and suffering because something special was lost to them for a lifetime, and that hurts them deeply. The only thing they seek to accomplish is to prevent others from suffering the same hurt.
I agree that I became too extreme in my viewpoints at times early on. I also crashed your thread and I apologize for all of these offenses.
I do think that I have made abundantly clear that I don't think adoption itself is evil. I just think it has been and is being abused, and is used often for the wrong purposes (such as for parents who can't conceive).
Agreed.
Quest
As for you, I have been quite impressed with your character in every thread. You are expressing some frustration with me right now, but not in a godless way as I am apt to sometimes do.
Most of my statistics are from the birthmother's themselves. I tend to trust them as they have no reason to claim that they suffered a forced coercion if they indeed did not. But regardless of where I get my statistics, I don't see how anyone could profit from putting forth a deception.
If these birthmoms really wanted to get rid of their children and wash their hands of them, they have every reason to clap their hands for joy and forget all about it. Yet, they are there and suffering because something special was lost to them for a lifetime, and that hurts them deeply. The only thing they seek to accomplish is to prevent others from suffering the same hurt.
I agree that I became too extreme in my viewpoints at times early on. I also crashed your thread and I apologize for all of these offenses.
I do think that I have made abundantly clear that I don't think adoption itself is evil. I just think it has been and is being abused, and is used often for the wrong purposes (such as for parents who can't conceive).
Agreed.
Quest
J
Here we go again question time you insecuriteis are affecting you life!
You make yourself out that your life is so depressing, have more faith in God man pull your self together and relax, i know this is easier said than done but seriously my sister had a much worse time she moved to 18 different addresses by the time she was 2 yrs old HOW MESSED UP if you like do you think she was, as a child you have no sense of belonging, you anger me so much that i think you shud be banned for life on chrisitan chat because you don't care about anyone's feelings to adoption you just think your right right right, well guess what dude! YOUR WRONG! Your take on adoption is always so bleak and depressing, adoptipn is children bing saved from awful backgrounds so pull your socks up get out in the world and enjoy God's words again because you are becomin a very bitter perosn!
You make yourself out that your life is so depressing, have more faith in God man pull your self together and relax, i know this is easier said than done but seriously my sister had a much worse time she moved to 18 different addresses by the time she was 2 yrs old HOW MESSED UP if you like do you think she was, as a child you have no sense of belonging, you anger me so much that i think you shud be banned for life on chrisitan chat because you don't care about anyone's feelings to adoption you just think your right right right, well guess what dude! YOUR WRONG! Your take on adoption is always so bleak and depressing, adoptipn is children bing saved from awful backgrounds so pull your socks up get out in the world and enjoy God's words again because you are becomin a very bitter perosn!
Greetings Jonnoboy,
I was not aware that I make my life out to be depressing. Perhaps I do talk negative and this is something I ought to watch out for.
I am sorry for your sister's experience. No child deserves to be shipped around from home to home.
I disagree that I ought to be banned for life. While I do admit to often allowing my emotions to get the best of me, I always post a sincere apology after. I did not come here with the intentions of hurting people. I know that I did offend people in the other thread and I was already chastised on the matter from other people. Since I have already been chastised and have apologized, I have endeavored to conduct myself in a more appropriate way.
My concern with you Jonnoboy is that you are equally extreme in your opinion as I was in mine. Neither extreme is correct. I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours, and I am entitled to express my opinion and debate this issue as well.
Apologizing for any bitterness displayed,
Quest
I was not aware that I make my life out to be depressing. Perhaps I do talk negative and this is something I ought to watch out for.
I am sorry for your sister's experience. No child deserves to be shipped around from home to home.
I disagree that I ought to be banned for life. While I do admit to often allowing my emotions to get the best of me, I always post a sincere apology after. I did not come here with the intentions of hurting people. I know that I did offend people in the other thread and I was already chastised on the matter from other people. Since I have already been chastised and have apologized, I have endeavored to conduct myself in a more appropriate way.
My concern with you Jonnoboy is that you are equally extreme in your opinion as I was in mine. Neither extreme is correct. I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours, and I am entitled to express my opinion and debate this issue as well.
Apologizing for any bitterness displayed,
Quest
Last edited:
M
Hi Quest,
I understand your point about the statistics and of course I agree these mothers in most cases have no reason to lie, I think the statistics you put forth are likely accurate, what I meant to say was is we don't know for certain the origins of those statistics and nothing short of a 100% participation can give a truly accurate representation of adoption as a whole and how all biological parents feel about their choice, I agree with your statement that across all circumstances the ratio is probably closer to 50/50 than 90/10 in either direction but it is still a theory and one we cannot prove.
It's like political polls prior to an election, maybe everyone involved tells the truth but they are still 10% of the participating population and so they are nothing but a vague guide, statistics nearly always sample a small percentage and so I tend to ignore them because a few different people on a few different days and you will have a different result.
I understand the passion you feel, I know what it's like to try and reason when you feel everyone is unaware of the real situation, I'm glad we have come to understand eachother.
I understand your point about the statistics and of course I agree these mothers in most cases have no reason to lie, I think the statistics you put forth are likely accurate, what I meant to say was is we don't know for certain the origins of those statistics and nothing short of a 100% participation can give a truly accurate representation of adoption as a whole and how all biological parents feel about their choice, I agree with your statement that across all circumstances the ratio is probably closer to 50/50 than 90/10 in either direction but it is still a theory and one we cannot prove.
It's like political polls prior to an election, maybe everyone involved tells the truth but they are still 10% of the participating population and so they are nothing but a vague guide, statistics nearly always sample a small percentage and so I tend to ignore them because a few different people on a few different days and you will have a different result.
I understand the passion you feel, I know what it's like to try and reason when you feel everyone is unaware of the real situation, I'm glad we have come to understand eachother.
Last edited:
M
It's a nightmare to read this kind of thing, but sadly it shines a light on the type of situation where adoption could have spared a tragedy:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8575674.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8575674.stm
Very sad indeed - and worse - this is becoming increasingly common.
Firstly, I don't see how this woman could get away with her crime. She has left a goldmine of DNA evidence for the police to find.
Secondly, I don't think adoption would have helped this woman or baby. She obviously wasn't mentally well enough to make any plans prior to this time regarding her pregnancy, and if she did care to keep the baby alive she could have dropped it off where people would have found the baby alive. Having done neither, I think it's likely that she was probably a drugged up mess of a woman who failed to deal properly with reality. Maybe too an abusive boyfriend or pimp wanted rid of the baby and disposed of it for her.
I don't think that baby adoption or mom and baby adoption would have helped this woman, because she didn't want to step out into the light to find help. Only a real mess of a person is going to cross their fingers and hope against reality that they aren't really pregnant.
Quest
Firstly, I don't see how this woman could get away with her crime. She has left a goldmine of DNA evidence for the police to find.
Secondly, I don't think adoption would have helped this woman or baby. She obviously wasn't mentally well enough to make any plans prior to this time regarding her pregnancy, and if she did care to keep the baby alive she could have dropped it off where people would have found the baby alive. Having done neither, I think it's likely that she was probably a drugged up mess of a woman who failed to deal properly with reality. Maybe too an abusive boyfriend or pimp wanted rid of the baby and disposed of it for her.
I don't think that baby adoption or mom and baby adoption would have helped this woman, because she didn't want to step out into the light to find help. Only a real mess of a person is going to cross their fingers and hope against reality that they aren't really pregnant.
Quest
Last edited:
M
Hopefully they will find her, she will most likely get to a hospital at some point after presumably giving birth without medical assistance, you are probably right that she may well have some personal problems that led to this but in broad terms babies born to mothers with this complete inability to care for them should be put up for adoption.
Just makes me scratch my head and wonder how she carried this child to term without friends/family/midwife/social services etc noticing the scale of her personal problems, points to bigger problems in how some women are supported during pregnancy.
I just can't help but wonder what might have happened if that baby had been left at a hospital and not the back of a shop, he might have survived and then could have been taken into a loving family.
Just makes me scratch my head and wonder how she carried this child to term without friends/family/midwife/social services etc noticing the scale of her personal problems, points to bigger problems in how some women are supported during pregnancy.
I just can't help but wonder what might have happened if that baby had been left at a hospital and not the back of a shop, he might have survived and then could have been taken into a loving family.
C
Is it the adoption that "causes" people to go to prison? Or the situation that led to the adoption? For example, if a child was abused and entered into the foster care system. Quite often, these children are returned home to their parents and are abused again, then removed again. They bounce from foster home to foster home. Eventually, the parent has their "rights" taken away and the child is avaible for adoption. This child has been repeatedly traumatized- both from the abuse and from the system's insane repsonse to the abuse. I know the statistics regarding the number of prisoners who were abused as children.
I couldn't find the more current studies. But, it still makes a point. I rather doubt these numbers have fallen. They've probably grown.
There's another point. Adoption may be correlated to prison. But, that does not mean it causes people to make decisions that they end up in prison. Correlation means there's a relationship. Blonde hair is correlated with blue eyes. A statistically relevant number of people with blonde hair have blue eyes. However, having blonde hair does not cause you to have blue eyes.
" Between 6% and 14% of male offenders and between 23% and 37% of
female offenders reported they hadbeen physically or sexually abused before age 18. For the general U.S. population, prevalence estimates of
child abuse vary, depending on definitions,types of questions, selection of
study subjects, and response rates. A review of 16 studies estimated that for
the general adult population 5% to 8% of males and 12% to 17% of females
were abused as children." Prior Abuse Reported by Inmates and Probationers 1999. female offenders reported they hadbeen physically or sexually abused before age 18. For the general U.S. population, prevalence estimates of
child abuse vary, depending on definitions,types of questions, selection of
study subjects, and response rates. A review of 16 studies estimated that for
the general adult population 5% to 8% of males and 12% to 17% of females
I couldn't find the more current studies. But, it still makes a point. I rather doubt these numbers have fallen. They've probably grown.
There's another point. Adoption may be correlated to prison. But, that does not mean it causes people to make decisions that they end up in prison. Correlation means there's a relationship. Blonde hair is correlated with blue eyes. A statistically relevant number of people with blonde hair have blue eyes. However, having blonde hair does not cause you to have blue eyes.