DECEMBER 25?

[Utah]

So what if they did?

It's the Birth of Christ that's being celebrated, not a day that's being observed, right?

-JGIG

I love celebrating the cold, 3rd darkest day of the year in New Jersey, don't you?

 

[Grace777x70]

This is great, but what is the role of the law then. Is it there for us to get an interesting history lesson and give our condolences to the Jews for being judged by it?

There is a difference between grace and cheap grace, just like there is a difference between keeping the law because you are obedient to the word of God and keeping the law for salvation.

There is no such thing as "cheap grace" ..that is just a derogatory way that some may use to disparage the true message of the grace of Christ ( Not saying you are saying that - just commenting on the term..)

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

 

[KohenMatt]

right now, Jonathan Bernis is on TV and telling the Christians he will send them a prayer shawl and or a shofar if they will send him money so he can stay on the air and keep mixing up the word with tokens and little gifts so that you 'buy' into it

I really have nothing at all against anyone who wants to observe whatever, but not in the place of saving faith in Christ


wearing a 'prayer shawl' will not make you more holy (only God is holy and we are ONLY holy IN Christ...that is where God sees us and if you take yourself out of that place and try to follow the law, or parts of the law THINKING you are becoming Jewish or more saved, you place yourself under a curse the Bible states

again, if you wish to observe anything and you have saving faith in Christ and you realize that nothing you do makes you acceptable in the eyes of our HOLY God except for your faith in HIS Son, the go for it...but no one really needs to do those things

it is evil, IMO, how people try to capitalize on the ignorance and superstitions of those who will not get into the word for themselves

I agree with you.

But again, just be careful that you don't promote the idea that the all of Hebrew Roots folks believe in false teachings like the ones you mentioned.

(And not for nothing, I have several prayer shawls and a shofar. (And I'm a pretty good shofar blower, if I do say so myself.))

 

[LaurenTM]

This is great, but what is the role of the law then. Is it there for us to get an interesting history lesson and give our condolences to the Jews for being judged by it?

There is a difference between grace and cheap grace, just like there is a difference between keeping the law because you are obedient to the word of God and keeping the law for salvation.

yeah not done cause this cannot be ignored

there is only ONE kind of grace...that would be GOD'S grace

falling for the LIE that some folks here have received cheap grace is slander at the least and a deliberate LIE to discount the work of Christ in OUR lives...without trying to keep the law...at the worst

you cannot have an amalgam of the law and Jesus shed blood

they are not and never were meant to work together

the blood of Christ is our atonement

I don't live by cheap grace...that is an insult

 

[LaurenTM]

I agree with you.

But again, just be careful that you don't promote the idea that the all of Hebrew Roots folks believe in false teachings like the ones you mentioned.

(And not for nothing, I have several prayer shawls and a shofar. (And I'm a pretty good shofar blower, if I do say so myself.))

well they whipped out the ole shofar from time to time in the Messianic meetings LOL!

listen...I firmly believe the Jews are still God's chosen people

but this nonsense about Gentiles converting some half cooked Jewish law keeping mish mash is nothing...it is not Christianity and it results in rejecting Christ which is beyond serious!

on the flip side of things, and I do see your 'fine print' in your signature there...understand that on occasion, the way some post, it is hard to tell the difference

again though, what you practice is not a part of God's salvation...I am not bothered if y'all want to play at being Jewish as long as you don't think you are...and apparently you do not...so....

 

[melita916]

You know, this really the key to virtually ALL of Mike's posts.

So I asked him what the CONSEQUENCES were for Christians who do NOT follow the Law and observe Sabbaths and Holy Days.

His answer was very telling. He DID NOT come right out and say that they were lost and God would condemn them. He said he DIDN'T KNOW what the consequences were.

Now either he knew that to say Christians were lost for not following the Law would be anathema and NO ONE would ever bother reading his mixed gospel again, or he truly doesn't know, which validates the point of those who say that there IS NO consequence regarding Salvation when it comes to SOLELY trusting Jesus for Salvation.

i was just wondering if those who do not celebrate on the 25th believe that those who do celebrate are in "danger."

i understand that as we walk with the Lord, the Holy Spirit will lead some to do certain things while others not. for example, when my mom surrendered to the Lord, the Holy Spirit led her to stop wearing earrings. it was not a burden for her to stop because the Holy Spirit placed that on her heart. does she preach anti-earrings? nope.

others have posted, "i was blind until the Holy Spirit opened my eyes" or "He will open your eyes" in reference to NOT celebrating on the 25th.

i was blind before i surrendered to Christ. i'm no longer blind.

this all reminds me of the passage where Paul talks about meat dedicated to idols. he said idols aren't real, so really.. there's no issue. but he also mentioned respecting our brothers and sisters.

my mom used to have a porcelain unicorn on our coffee table. someone was visiting, and he saw the unicorn. he went on saying she shouldn't have that because unicorns are mystical and whatnots. so she said, "well... i have no problem with it. it was a gift from someone, but if it bothers you, i can chop off the horn and it will just be a horse." he said it wasn't necessary.

 

[notmyown]

I don't celebrate christmas. It's an unbiblical man-made holiday.

However, I'll be celebrating and remembering His birth during Sukkot in a few weeks. Our worship team set up the songs for that particular week and we're actually doing 2 "christmas" songs. O Come Emmanuel and Night Divine. We'll see how that goes over!

hey, Matt!

i don't really have a dog in this fight, but you know i was thinking (dangerous )...
and as usual i didn't read the whole thread

since Sukkot can occur anywhere between mid September to the end of October...

and i tend to think Christ was born during the feast of booths...

what if it was September that year?... lemessee... count back 9 months...

December! Emmanuel! God with us! the Word made flesh!

anyhoo, we celebrate Christmas, not a big material brouhaha, but a thankfulness for the salvation of the Lord.

 

[Connock]

The term "cheap grace" is ironic. I chuckle every time I read it.
I know it's meant pejoratively, but is actually descriptive
"Cheap" = unnaturally low price, free of cost, unearned? Well...

Any other type of grace is by definition not grace.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph 2:8, emph added)
​

We are saved only by grace through faith. This grace is a (received) gift of God.

If a (received) gift costs you something, it is not a gift.
If (received) grace costs you anything, it is not grace.

....but this doesn't mean HRM-ers are wrong about everything, or that others have nothing to learn from constructive dialog with them.

 

[JGIG]

well, ignorance is bliss as they say...but I prefer the joy of the Lord in order to have that joy, we need to partake of JESUS and keep focused on Him

this group and others like it, HIDE Jesus behind the law...it's just what Paul got so angry at...

a moderator closed down another thread by the op wherein he started talking about how it is hard to understand Paul...it was closed because of their heresy of discounting Paul from the NT so that their law antics could be inserted into Christianity

I have not been familiar with this type of thing either, so we are all getting quite an education!

thanks if it helped you, but if I may point you to JGIG?

she actually has a very informative and well written blog that explains it all...there is a link on the bottom of her posts

thanks!

They don't just hide Jesus behind the Law, they replace Jesus with the Law, proclaiming Him the 'Living Torah'!

The idolatrous, blasphemous implications of that belief are profound!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

IF I knew what you were talking about I might be able to answer. Hebrew Roots ? who are they ?
I know there are people who keep the Commandments of God...
and there are people who do not !

Hebrew Roots folk are just one of the latest incarnations of those who Paul was speaking to when he said this:

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (from Gal. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was also blinded by the church for a long time but by the grace of God I now know the truth about cheap grace. Just like Paul was also blinded by religion.

Not sure what you mean here, Is there such thing as "expensive" grace? I did not know Grace cost anything well except to the giver. We should all give grace, It should not cost the reciever anything though. Because if it does. it is not grace, is it?

 

[Magenta]

In 1934 on the date of my birth, Hitler and Moussolini met and became allies. I guess if I have cake that day I'm celebrating the start of the holocaust and ww2. Gee mom, better turn the oven off.

Are you lying about your age because that will make you 82?

If your birthday is the same day as The US of A does that make you 238 hundreds of years old?

 

[KohenMatt]

you are right...but the very name suggests otherwise

and you are also right in stating how the different groups differ and even argue

IMO, it is best to not even get involved in those groups

I myself was a part of Messianic congregation for about two years and I liked it so much! I really did! I even called Jesus Yahshua because I was told I might offend some members...I was part of the leadership (music/worship) and therefore people looked up to me...I sang in Hebrew and English...some very beautiful songs...and even wrote a small musical presentation of the rebuilding of the wall with Nehemiah and tied that into belief in Christ and how He rebuilds us...that story of Nehemiah is a wonderful story! a wonderful example of living faith in God and the dedication of one man to do what is right! in spite of all the naysayers and scoffers

know what happened? there was a Jewish synagogue across the street from where we met on Saturdays (Sabbath, right?) in the sanctuary of a church that we rented, and some of the congregation in the Messianic group decided to take it across the street and started actually arguing with the Jewish folk there!

someone called the news and we had a reporter with a camera man come to a service...I sat it out...I did not participate...I did not see how arguing with a synagogue was going to do any good

it all went south...there was a split and everyone suffered

so, I do know a little about these things...I have known other Jewish people who have believed in Jesus as their Messiah and I truly love their company

they are indeed a special people and when they accept Jesus, they are so inspiring!

But again, these are JEWISH by birth...true Jews...not make believe ones

I grew up around many Jewish people...went to a High School where about 50% of the population was Jewish and I have worked for Jewish companies...Montreal has a very large Jewish population

so, I'm not exactly ignorant of all things Jewish, but the point is, Jesus is God's sin offering

I, too have experience a similar type of church split where I am a pastor. But as you mentioned, while there are some in the Messianic/Hebrew Roots crowd that make that sad decision to head back into Judaism, I'm sure you several folks that were just as passionate about God, Jesus and His sacrifice as anyone.

It took our church a few years to overcome a couple of different stigmas. 1) Even though there were folks who left to become more Judaic, our church was not. And 2)While we didn't embrace the full-on Judaism type of conversion, we still believed and preached a Gospel driven view of Torah and observance to it.

That's my point. I don't think it's fair to label all Messianic/Hebrew Roots people as ones preaching heresy and denying the faith. For every wacky and erroneous doctrine you can find in the HRM movement, you can find just as many in traditional Christian denomination. But in both cases, it's not correct to identify the entire denomination by those who have a false doctrine of the Gospel.

 

[KohenMatt]

hey, Matt!

i don't really have a dog in this fight, but you know i was thinking (dangerous )...
and as usual i didn't read the whole thread

since Sukkot can occur anywhere between mid September to the end of October...

and i tend to think Christ was born during the feast of booths...

what if it was September that year?... lemessee... count back 9 months...

December! Emmanuel! God with us! the Word made flesh!

anyhoo, we celebrate Christmas, not a big material brouhaha, but a thankfulness for the salvation of the Lord.

I can see where you're going with the math, but there are a couple of things to think about (which is dangerous for you apparently)

You're right that the dates of Sukkot vary from year to year, which is why the 9 months math isn't a consistent truth. The dates of Sukkot vary to the differences between Hebrew and Greek based calendars. At the time of the Torah, God's calendar was based on a Hebrew type of lunar calendar which was determined by the New Moons. Here in Colorado, we saw the New Moon last Sunday night (when the Feast of Trumpets was scheduled to start.)

And your last comment is the truest; having a thandkulness for the salvation of the Lord.

 

[JGIG]

And I'm an example of following Jesus as the Son of God, yay, God Himself.

The law plays an important role (in it's proper order) in the life of a New Testament believer.

But that statement doesn't negate the work of our Messiah.

That, right there, is the problem with HRM, and it is the one thing shared by all the different flavors of it. And yes it does negate the work of Jesus Christ.

Exactly. Though I would say that relying on the Law does not negate the work of Christ (causing one to lose one's salvation), but makes Christ of no effect in their lives (Gal. 5:4) because they are relying on the Law for their righteousness rather than on Christ and His continuing, faithful Work in them for their righteousness.

Again, it's so important to understand just what the Law actually produces according to Scripture:

• In Christ, believers are DEAD to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)
• In Christ, believers are under Grace, not Law (Rom. 6:14, 15)
• Grace, not Law, teaches the believer how to say no to ungodliness (Tit. 2:11)
• The righteousness of God has been made manifest APART from the Law (Rom. 3:21-31)
• The power of sin is the Law (1 Cor. 15:56)
• That APART from the Law, sin is DEAD (Rom. 7:8)

So let's look at some truths that the Scriptures above reveal:

• Grace teaches believers godliness, not Law
• God's righteousness is manifested APART from the Law, not through it or by observing it
• Sin is EMPOWERED by the Law
• Sin, APART from the Law, is DEAD

This is not ambiguous at all concerning the believer's relationship with the Law.

Believers are DEAD to the Law, and have no relationship with the Law whatsoever.

To go back to observing the Law actually has the opposite effect that I believe Law-keepers are seeking - less sin in their lives. I don't question their motive, but their method!

If they are honest, looking at the Law-keeping movements out there (and other fellowships, churches, and groups of believers who mix Law and Grace in their belief systems), there is sin in the Law camp. And lots of it. And a bunch of it is hidden sin. Where Grace provides a redemptive context in Grace for confession and repentance - it is the ministry of Life, with the Law comes condemnation (the ministry of death, see 2 Cor. 3).


Blue Letter Bible has this sweet devotional regarding the ministry of death and the ministry of life:

Ministry of Death versus Ministry of Life

​

The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious…how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? (2 Corinthians 3:6-8)

​

These verses contain another contrasting choice that results in people either living by bankrupt human resources, or by bountiful heavenly ones. This contrast is "the ministry of death versus the ministry of life." These terms come from correlating four phrases:"the letter kills…the Spirit gives life…the ministry of death…the ministry of the Spirit."

Of course, the old covenant of law is the "ministry of death," and the new covenant of grace is the "ministry of life" ("ministry of the Spirit…the Spirit gives life").

When people attempt to minister by the law, spiritual deadness results. Since the law sets forth a perfect standard, but offers no assistance, it "deadens" those who try to live by it.

Only those who minister by grace can hold forth life to people, because grace alone provides the life that God intends for us to experience. Ministry is to be engaged in by individuals, families, and churches. Every ministry will either be characterized as a "ministry of death" or a "ministry of life." Contact with ministries either brings spiritual deadness to people, or it brings spiritual vitality.

What would people encounter if an individual, family, or church were a "ministry of death" (that is, a law-based ministry that left people relying upon their own sufficiency)? They might encounter judgmentalism or fleshly striving. They might find self-righteousness or self-confidence. They might discover hypocrisy or frustration. They might detect harshness or coldness.

Conversely, what would people encounter if an individual, family, or church were a "ministry of…life" (that is, a grace-oriented ministry that encouraged people to rely upon God's sufficiency)? Instead of judgmentalism and fleshly striving, they would encounter love and peace. Instead of self-righteousness and self-confidence, they would find humility and confidence in God. Instead of hypocrisy and frustration, they would discover genuineness and fulfillment. Instead of harshness and coldness, they would detect gentleness and warmth.

Our God is a God of life. God's loving plan of salvation was that the Son would die to bring us life. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). The Lord has life for us, and He wants us to minister life to others.
​

​

Dear Lord of life, convict my heart when I am bringing to others a law-based ministry of death. Please develop in me a grace-oriented ministry of life, by the work of Your Spirit, Amen.​

​

I know beyond a doubt that some of you in the Law-keeping camp see this: Law 'keeping' is not producing righteousness, but divisions, pride, arrogance, along with taking the focus off of Christ and His Work and placing the focus on Law and the believer's observance of it.

And here's the kicker: They aren't even observing the Law as it was given by God, but are observing a law of their own creation - a watered-down, 'keepable' law, which produces a counterfeit and often arrogant self-righteousness, not the righteousness of God, which Scripture makes clear is manifest APART from the Law.

If you're going to attempt to keep the Law - do it all out. Not the skim-milk version, where the substance of the Law has been removed, but the full-cream, whole version of the Law, so that it can do its work!

May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

-JGIG

 

[RickyZ]

If your birthday is the same day as The US of A does that make you 238 hundreds of years old?

Yet I don't look a day over 59

 

[JGIG]

Without a doubt - disciplemike is perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ by constantly trying to get Christians to go back to the law of Moses.

He says that if a Christian is NOT observing the Sabbath or the feasts as is in the Law of Moses - we are not obeying God's commandments. That is a Judaizer spirit which Paul stood vehemently against as it nullifies the grace of God in our lives.

Make no mistake about it - this is an anti-Christ belief system. Paul didn't say that in the last days people would be anti-God - he said they would be anti-Christ. Big difference.

Judaizers are all for "God" but they deny the Lord Jesus Christ's work and choose to live by the law. ( well, not the real Law - just a watered down version of it )

Paul said that he would not stand for this perversion of the gospel for even one hour so that the truth might remain with us. Gal. 2:3-5.

Christians should be on Jewish forums telling them that their Messiah has already come. Instead disciplemike is on Christian forums trying to get Christians to desert Christ ( Ga;. 1:6 ) for going back to the law of Moses for life and living.

That is a real mark of the Law-keeping movements - they go into bodies of believers to bring them under Law, not to the Lost to minister the love and grace of Christ to them and bring the Good News of His Work to them.

-JGIG

 

[RickyZ]

In 1934 on the date of my birth, Hitler and Moussolini met and became allies. I guess if I have cake that day I'm celebrating the start of the holocaust and ww2. Gee mom, better turn the oven off.

Are you lying about your age because that will make you 82?

That right there shows your extremely limited comprehension of what is being said.

 

[JGIG]

You know, this really the key to virtually ALL of Mike's posts.

So I asked him what the CONSEQUENCES were for Christians who do NOT follow the Law and observe Sabbaths and Holy Days.

His answer was very telling. He DID NOT come right out and say that they were lost and God would condemn them. He said he DIDN'T KNOW what the consequences were.

Now either he knew that to say Christians were lost for not following the Law would be anathema and NO ONE would ever bother reading his mixed gospel again, or he truly doesn't know, which validates the point of those who say that there IS NO consequence regarding Salvation when it comes to SOLELY trusting Jesus for Salvation.

This IS very telling, because disciplemike either doesn't know the Law which he teaches here (which is clear in stating the consequences for disobedience) or he's holding back, because, as you said, it would be anathema and clearly anti-Christ teaching.

But perhaps disciplemike cannot see it himself, because of the watered-down law he claims to keep.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

well they whipped out the ole shofar from time to time in the Messianic meetings LOL!

listen...I firmly believe the Jews are still God's chosen people

but this nonsense about Gentiles converting some half cooked Jewish law keeping mish mash is nothing...it is not Christianity and it results in rejecting Christ which is beyond serious!

on the flip side of things, and I do see your 'fine print' in your signature there...understand that on occasion, the way some post, it is hard to tell the difference

again though, what you practice is not a part of God's salvation...I am not bothered if y'all want to play at being Jewish as long as you don't think you are...and apparently you do not...so....

But ask them if they think they're Israel . . .


-JGIG