DECEMBER 25?

[disciplemike]

yes, everyone has opinions.
mine could be wrong.
however, (isn't there always a however),

if a person takes a few verses from a letter written to believers in Rome - to mean that none of God's instructions apply to us, they are sadly mistaken.

ten years ago, I would have been fighting on the other side of this debate.
I really, really enjoyed the Dec25 rituals.
not now.

 

[JaumeJ]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

Is this teaching also "out of context" as you have insisted on other properly quoted vers? Ok, now reach hard.

 

[JaumeJ]

With the verse above, are you still able to say it is not understood or out of context?

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom

14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


If the Saturnalia is observed on winter solstice, it would be the 21st or the 22nd of December, not that it makes any difference in commemorating our blessed Lord's birth.

What is the exact date of Christ's birth if you please?

If you cannot say with reason and exactitude this entire thread, like in years past, is moot.

 

[PennEd]

That's right, disciplemike, and everyone's got one .

Here's a question for you: Paul had written in Chapter 7 of the letter to the Romans that those in Christ are dead to the Law. With that for context, Romans 14 is not talking about which days are best for fasting, but the issue that we on this forum discuss all the time: Law or Grace. The weaker brothers abide by the Law, and the more mature among us are to show them Grace in disputable matters!

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But seriously, if you were to come into our home as our guest, I would take care to not serve you foods you consider to be unclean, nor do I have a problem with you doing as your conscience dictates concerning holy days/celebrations.

NOTE: When you get really serious about keeping God's Law as it was written, it will then do its job and lead you to Christ and His Grace.

Where you cross the line is when you pose flawed questions designed to lead other believers to coming back under a law of yours and other's own creation (NOT God's Law as it is written). That is out of bounds.

You've showed your hand by posting 119 Ministries and Michael Rood resources, and I'm guessing that if he wasn't in prison for financial fraud (conning old folks out of their retirement incomes while he was teaching Torah to folks like you), you'd try to get some Jim Staley stuff posted here, too. I'm VERY WELL VERSED in what they all teach, along with guys like Monte Judah, Avi Ben Mordechai, Rico Cortes, Brad Scott, and several others. I've done my due diligence and disagree with what they teach - fully informed and understanding what they teach. It may be a good idea for you to do some research into where their teachings come from.

And they ALL teach a watered-down law of their own creation.

Again, as I've said many times before: start trying to keep the Law as God gave it, and it will do its job and lead you to Christ and Grace. Give it a go! And when you come to the end of yourself, go and re-read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Hebrews . . . and you will see God's Grace speaking to you all over the place, and the Law's purpose in you will have done its job.

________________________


This has been a good thread! You've stated your case (kind of, but we still have not seen any actual proof for your assertions) and those who take joy in celebrating the Birth of Christ have stated their cases.

I think it's been very enlightening for the readers here at the BDF !

-JGIG

This is the passage I was thinking of while reading your post:It may very well Mike good to meditate on it and ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom regarding it:

[h=3]Christ Fulfills the Law[/h][FONT=&quot]17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]

 

[LaurenTM]

Are you lying about your age because that will make you 82?

read it again...with 2 eyes this time

that is not what he said

everyone is so smart here

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by JaumeJ

We thank the Father for the Son many times every day. I suppose we are thanking Him for the Son's birth and His death and His resurrection.

We do this without be told to do so. Should we stop?

Originally Posted by disciplemike

Step away from the pagan holy days.
Try God's holy days.
I had to wake up. Others need to wake up.
Not that I know everything, but if your "church" teaches things that are not in Scripture, have the courage to ask "why?".

Pagans thank God for His Son's birth, death, and resurrection?!

Who knew?!

-JGIG

I for one have never heard pagans celebrate the birth of the Savior into the world.....our Lord Jesus Christ---boy are they ever going to be a mess when they find that out....lol

Sometimes religion gets our minds so messed up. How is this foolishness of not observing something in the Old Covenant like the Jewish law holy days when Christ has fulfilled them any different from women walking around with their hair in buns and not using electricity because it is "of the world".

Religion just breeds stupidity and spiritual ignorance. I just do wish that they would attempt to actually keep the law the way it is in the Old Covenant and then they would come to Christ for life and true living as the Law's purpose would have been completed.

 

[LaurenTM]

With the verse above, are you still able to say it is not understood or out of context?

what people are missing here, and to help you understand why Mike refuses any and all verses that establish the veracity of the New Covenant, is that his group does not think Paul is an apostle

he took quite a while...months actually...to slowly drag that skeleton out of the closet, but it rattled itself at us last week

in order to create the belief that Christians become actual Jews and must follow the law...although it's kind of like a smorgasbord...you pick and choose which parts you think you give justice to....you take Paul out of the equation and discredit him and in order to DECEIVE those whom you wish to convert, you state that what Paul wrote is HARD to understand...

something along the lines of...look, you dumb Gentile, you don't understand Paul and you need US, the Rootz gang to explain it to you...

what they don't tell you from the get go, cause they know the reaction they will get,...is that they believe Paul was a heretic and because of him, the entire law was almost done away with

so, you should be thankful...thankful I tell ya...they they are here to help us build booths, dunk ourselves in freezing water once a year...in spite of baptism being a symbol of death with Christ (yah gotta do this more often every folks...your sins are piling up) and stop eating authentic German salami...

phew...and that's just barely skimming the top

now the Sabbath? that's a whole nother war zone

 

[JaumeJ]

If the folks would realze apostle means sent out, perhaps they would realize all who are called my be called apostles, though never the same as the Twelve Foundations of New Jerusalem............

 

[tanakh]

what people are missing here, and to help you understand why Mike refuses any and all verses that establish the veracity of the New Covenant, is that his group does not think Paul is an apostle

he took quite a while...months actually...to slowly drag that skeleton out of the closet, but it rattled itself at us last week

in order to create the belief that Christians become actual Jews and must follow the law...although it's kind of like a smorgasbord...you pick and choose which parts you think you give justice to....you take Paul out of the equation and discredit him and in order to DECEIVE those whom you wish to convert, you state that what Paul wrote is HARD to understand...

something along the lines of...look, you dumb Gentile, you don't understand Paul and you need US, the Rootz gang to explain it to you...

what they don't tell you from the get go, cause they know the reaction they will get,...is that they believe Paul was a heretic and because of him, the entire law was almost done away with

so, you should be thankful...thankful I tell ya...they they are here to help us build booths, dunk ourselves in freezing water once a year...in spite of baptism being a symbol of death with Christ (yah gotta do this more often every folks...your sins are piling up) and stop eating authentic German salami...

phew...and that's just barely skimming the top

now the Sabbath? that's a whole nother war zone

I found your post to be very eye opening.

 

[LaurenTM]

I found your post to be very eye opening.

well, ignorance is bliss as they say...but I prefer the joy of the Lord in order to have that joy, we need to partake of JESUS and keep focused on Him

this group and others like it, HIDE Jesus behind the law...it's just what Paul got so angry at...

a moderator closed down another thread by the op wherein he started talking about how it is hard to understand Paul...it was closed because of their heresy of discounting Paul from the NT so that their law antics could be inserted into Christianity

I have not been familiar with this type of thing either, so we are all getting quite an education!

thanks if it helped you, but if I may point you to JGIG?

she actually has a very informative and well written blog that explains it all...there is a link on the bottom of her posts

thanks!

 

[JaumeJ]

I must go on record here as confessing the faith Jesus Christ teaches, the faith of Abraham, with understanding.

We all have Abraham as our spiritual forefather, not to mention his name is also a reference to our Heavenly Father for it means Father of Nations. This by no means dismisses our feelowship with all who call on Jesus Christin spirit and truth, however it doe underscore the great benefits in recognizing our Biblical heritage.

As for festive days, I am waiting for the kingdom and total understanding. I do believe all of those holy days in the Old Testament are prophecies of what is real and true, otherwise the fact that they are shadows of what is to come would not be taughgt.

I have no difficulty in acknowledging the name Yeshua for Jesus, for they are both the same. It breaks my heart that others fear this name because it is also just a trnalteration with no meaning unless one knows its translation, The Salvatio of Yahweh.

If none of the above, and I have a lot more, is valid, then destroy the Old Testament once and for all, yet no one dares do such a thing, and no one should for all of the Word is Jesus Christ.

Let us not be quick to judge our brethren because they love all of the Word though at times may be overzealous in it intrpretation.

Keep in mind in my case, I hold to no named denomination, only to all who are family in the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and God, amen.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

a moderator closed down another thread by the op wherein he started talking about how it is hard to understand Paul...it was closed because of their heresy of discounting Paul from the NT so that their law antics could be inserted into Christianity

So I take it that you believe that without Paul's letters we will not be able to understand the Bible?

If you look at the links posted by Mike he follows 119 ministries and they do believe that Paul was an apostle. Is Paul's letters difficult to understand? We can only look at the arguments in the modern church and come to the conclusion that yes they are difficult to understand.

Paul was very intelligent, most probably one of the most intelligent people in the Bible and that is why his letters are difficult. Without the proper background knowledge you might misquote what he said.

 

[oldethennew]

we have missed the posting where DM has stated that Paul is not an apostle of Jesus Christ,
could someone direct us to it please?

 

[beta]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

Is this teaching also "out of context" as you have insisted on other properly quoted vers? Ok, now reach hard.

That all depends who Paul was speaking to. Do you think he was defending the pagan worshippers or was Paul actually speaking to the CONVERTS who were being threatened and persecuted to return to their old ways ?
Why would Paul speak to the gentiles/pagans regarding the Sabbath when they never kept it ?

 

[JaumeJ]

Let us keep it simple..........Paul speaks truth. The gospel of Jesus Christ is what he teaches all, according to his own words and teachings. What Paul says to one group on general teachings is the truth to them and to any others with whom he is speaking. Otherwise he is a liar, and I do not believe he is a liar, do you?

That all depends who Paul was speaking to. Do you think he was defending the pagan worshippers or was Paul actually speaking to the CONVERTS who were being threatened and persecuted to return to their old ways ?
Why would Paul speak to the gentiles/pagans regarding the Sabbath when they never kept it ?

 

[LaurenTM]

So I take it that you believe that without Paul's letters we will not be able to understand the Bible?

If you look at the links posted by Mike he follows 119 ministries and they do believe that Paul was an apostle. Is Paul's letters difficult to understand? We can only look at the arguments in the modern church and come to the conclusion that yes they are difficult to understand.

Paul was very intelligent, most probably one of the most intelligent people in the Bible and that is why his letters are difficult. Without the proper background knowledge you might misquote what he said.

you don't have a clue

JESUS Himself appointed Paul an Apostle...JESUS Himself stopped Paul in his tracks and Paul was converted

have you had that experience?

have you met Jesus face to face and have you been changed in your spirit?

are you filled with the Holy Spirit and do you confess Jesus Christ is Lord?

I don't have to read or study one single thing to be saved...I just have to believe in my heart and confess with my mouth

My confession is good enough for God and He enables me to live for Him

now what is your point exactly?

I defend the gospel of the NT...do you?

Mike is spreading a false gospel...does not matter if he is a nice guy and does not matter if people think I am not nice because I don't mince words

there is only ONE sacrifice acceptable to God and it is not the sacrifices made by those who have the very mistaken idea they have found hidden truths

 

[LaurenTM]

we have missed the posting where DM has stated that Paul is not an apostle of Jesus Christ,
could someone direct us to it please?

go visit the thread that was shut down by prodigal and read what he said

then, ask him about it

 

[Grace777x70]

Without Paul's letters we would never know what happened at the cross, death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension of our Lord and what happened to ourselves as we are now in Christ.

Paul's letters "explains" what happened in the gospel of the grace of Christ. You will not find this in the gospels themselves. The gospels are eye witness accounts of what happened in history and of the life of our Lord Jesus Christ while on this earth.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself showed Paul the revelation of the mystery of the gospel which is Christ Himself - and the riches of that mystery is that Christ is in us.

Paul's epistles are paramount for the believer who is now in Christ and that we have died with Christ and rose with Him to newness of life.

Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[LaurenTM]

That all depends who Paul was speaking to. Do you think he was defending the pagan worshippers or was Paul actually speaking to the CONVERTS who were being threatened and persecuted to return to their old ways ?
Why would Paul speak to the gentiles/pagans regarding the Sabbath when they never kept it ?

do you allow the word of God to speak to your heart, your soul, your spirit?

or do you just try to understand with your mind what is SPIRITUALLY discerned?

the law is all about physical acts...it does not save

the devil and all his works were not defeated until Christ died

no one is anything at all with Jesus Christ the Son of God

God is speaking to you and everyone else here right now...simply by His word

 

[beta]

Let us keep it simple..........Paul speaks truth. The gospel of Jesus Christ is what he teaches all, according to his own words and teachings. What Paul says to one group on general teachings is the truth to them and to any others with whom he is speaking. Otherwise he is a liar, and I do not believe he is a liar, do you?

No, Paul is not a liar. but no matter how much truth you speak - it will not benefit if you reject it or mis-apply it. To me it is obvious that Paul was defending his own following Converts in their new teaching and not those still in their old ways.