Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[popeye]

Hi Fellows,
　
I guess I should add a little of what I have learned from the Scriptures so you can cut me up in little pieces too,
　
First, --- I believe 'My Testimony' is Scriptural:
My simple faith is easy to explain --- I believe in the three in heaven, God the Father --- the Word --- and the Holy Spirit, John 1:1, and 1 John 5:7. --- The Word/Christ and the Holy Spirit came to earth and were housed in the physical body of Jesus (the only One who could be seen by men). --- Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God on earth, --- and after His death on the cross as our Savior, and His resurrection, --- God exalted Him to the position in heaven of High Priest (after the order of Melchizedek). --- The Word/Christ returned to their positions at the right hand of God. --- The Holy Spirit remains on earth to give believers New Life, while we are still in our old bodies.
　
--- The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are Three, --- but they are NOT a trinity, they are ONE in harmony and purpose. --- The Father is the designer and Architect and He created all things, pertaining to our world, through the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) John, 1:3. --- The Word, who was God (Theos) John 1:1, and the Holy Spirit, always did the Father's will.
The Word and Christ were together in the OT, which I can show you later, and then both came from heaven, with the Holy Spirit to indwell the Body of Jesus, the 'body' that God had prepared for that purpose. --- Hebrews 10:
　
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’"
　
This is written in Isaiah 48:
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me."
--- This was the Word speaking, because it says in John 1:14, that "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
The Word came and took up residence in the body that was created for Him.

Placid

Jesus is the God man,and still is.

You use the word "created" in regards to Jesus,as does Quasar.

Jesus is not created,nor did he come to inhabit a created body.

He became flesh.

It you have a problem with the trinity,then join the club,because it is beyond our brains as you and quasar have proven.

You both think you have to mentally corral all the dynamics of a truth.

We belive it because it is,not because we understand it.

Did you know man is a trinity?

Spirit,soul,and body. We are 3 but 1.....all at the same time.

And Jesus became a priest before his earthly ministry.

John,a levite,transferred the priesthood to Jesus,at baptism.The priesthood ITSELF CHANGED.

Jesus ministered,died,and rose again as a priest. His priesthood was not of aaron/ levitical. It was judaic/ David/ melchasidic.

Jesus BECAME MAN. The God man.

Not God in a created body. That is what we are.

 

[popeye]

...and not saying we are God. Only that God is in us

 

[popeye]

You see,when the animal is sacrificed,they killed it. It had to died spilling blood.

Now,you see your dilemma,and everyone's dilemma.

How do you kill a being that can not be killed?

He had to BECOME THE GOD MAN.

Not God in a body.

God had to die.

The whole reason for the incarnation of God,was not only for God to die,but only he COULD RESURRECT. DANIEL THE PROPHET WAS WITHOUT FAULT. HE FIT THE REQUIREMENT FOR SACRIFICE.

Daniel could not resurrect.

 

[Quasar92]

YOUR HERETICAL POST 471


You are indeed a heretic

Big time

Read the following very carefully and watch who and what you call a heretic and who's teachings are false!

Proverbs 8:22-25 KJV and NASB


22"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"
Proverbs 8:22-25 NIV
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,"


Gen.14:19 "And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high
God, possessor of heaven and earth:" KJV and NASB


Gen.14:19 "and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High,Creator of heaven and earth." NIV


Gen.14:22 "And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth," KJV and NASB
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Gen.14:22 "Abram replied to the king of Sodom, "I solemnly swear to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth," NIV[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]From the above, the origin of the spirit who later became the incarnate Jesus, is shown here aw the FIRSTORN over all creation, as recorded in Col.1:15.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Definition of FIRSTBORN:[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]adj.
[/FONT]
1. first in the order of birth; eldest.
n.2. a firstborn child.
3. a first result or product.


[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]The incarnation of Jesus is recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35:[/FONT]
Heb.10:5 "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;"


One of many examples of spirits entering the body of a person or an animal. Including Satan entering into Judas.


Mk.5:1"Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an uncleanspirit came out of the tombs and met Him. 3 He lived in the tombs. No one was able to restrain him anymore—even with chains— 4 because he often had been bound with shackles and chains, but had snapped off the chains and smashed the shackles. No one was strong enough to subduehim. 5 And always, night and day, he was crying out among the tombsand in the mountains and cutting himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before Him.7 And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me,[b]Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg[c] You before God, don’t torment me!” 8 For He had told him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”


Lk.22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."


The above Scriptural facts fully support what I have posted.



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Identifying the Biblical term Father as a title

A revelation of how easy it is for the Scriptures to identify God as being the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible, documented below.
1. 2 Sam.7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be my son"
2. 1 Chr.17:13: "I will be his Father and he will be my son..."
3. Ps.2:7: "He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
4. Acts 13:33: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
The "I" in each of the four verses above is God referring to Himself. Who is the "I" ? [Later below].

The Scriptures below tell us God is an invisible Spirit:

God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
In addition to the Scriptures below declaring the above Spirit of God Holy:

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.

With the Scriptures documenting the identity of God as being the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility of anyone except the Holy Spirit of being the Father of Jesus Christ as well, according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Heb.10:5.

Revealing the "I's," in the above Scriptures, who spoke of Himself as the Father of a Son to come, to be the Holy Spirit.

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus Christ:
He was "brought forth," NIV - or - "born," NASB, by God [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures], in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began. Who was "given birth" in verses 24-25, the "Craftsman at His side," NIV - or - "I was beside Him as a Master workman," NASB, in vs 30 and the "us" in Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Heb.1:2. The firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.


From the Pr.8:22 KJV: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." A review of Gen.14:19 and 2 2 reveals the term POSSESSOR to be translated CREATOR, in the NIV and [annotated] CREATOR in the NASB as well as Scofield's version of the KJV. Meaning that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father:


When the Holy Spirit overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13; Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said we must be born again through belief in Him, and He will give/baptize those who do, with eternal life, documented in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled.




Quasar02

 

[valiant]

Identifying the Biblical term Father as a title

A revelation of how easy it is for the Scriptures to identify God as being the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible, documented below.
1. 2 Sam.7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be my son"
2. 1 Chr.17:13: "I will be his Father and he will be my son..."
3. Ps.2:7: "He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
4. Acts 13:33: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
The "I" in each of the four verses above is God referring to Himself. Who is the "I" ? [Later below].

The Scriptures below tell us God is an invisible Spirit:

God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
In addition to the Scriptures below declaring the above Spirit of God Holy:

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.

With the Scriptures documenting the identity of God as being the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility of anyone except the Holy Spirit of being the Father of Jesus Christ as well, according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Heb.10:5.

Revealing the "I's," in the above Scriptures, who spoke of Himself as the Father of a Son to come, to be the Holy Spirit.

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus Christ:
He was "brought forth," NIV - or - "born," NASB, by God [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures], in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began. Who was "given birth" in verses 24-25, the "Craftsman at His side," NIV - or - "I was beside Him as a Master workman," NASB, in vs 30 and the "us" in Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Heb.1:2. The firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.


From the Pr.8:22 KJV: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." A review of Gen.14:19 and 2 2 reveals the term POSSESSOR to be translated CREATOR, in the NIV and [annotated] CREATOR in the NASB as well as Scofield's version of the KJV. Meaning that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father:


When the Holy Spirit overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13; Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said we must be born again through belief in Him, and He will give/baptize those who do, with eternal life, documented in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled.




Quasar02

There is and was only ONE TRIUNE GOD. He was revealed in His unity in the OT and revealed in triuneness in the NT.

Contrary to your heresy the Holy Spirit was NEVER the Father of Jesus.

God was initially tripartite. The 'Father' and 'Son' were ideas introduced by humans to explain HIM.

 

[bluto]

Greetings placid! I was hoping you would have addressed the following I wrote to you proving that Jesus Christ is "co-equal" with His Father. That is why the Jews accused Jesus Christ of blasphemy for claiming equality with God His Father. Please read the following. And btw, the "Word/Logos" is Jesus Christ who are one and the same which you deny. The one person of Jesus Christ has two natures, one human and one deity. One from his mothers side and the other from His Father's side.

Hi placid! I notice you are taking the verses out of context so let me explain why I gave you those verses and what the common theme can be found in them. Starting with John 5:17,18 we have Jesus saying, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." The Jews at vs18 took up stones to kill Jesus because He called God His own Father. The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ is indeed the one and only begotten Son of God the Father as in there are not others according to (John 3:16).

In fact at Luke 2:49 Jesus says as a boy to His parents, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in MY FATHER'S house." Jesus clearly says, "My Father's" house. At John 10:30 Jesus says, "I and the Father, we are one." The Jews say at vs33, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God."

John 19:7, "We have a law, and by that law he ought to die because (or why) he made Himself out the Son of God." Please notice placid, Jesus made Himself out the Son of God. Why is being the "Son of God" worthy of death since the Jews themselves claim they are the sons of God as well?

Now to the trial transcript at Matthew 26:59-66. The high priest Caiaphas ask Jesus to swear an oath, vs63, "And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You (to swear) by the living God, that You tell us WHETHER (which means the high priest is aksing the one person of Jesus Christ) #1, are You the Christ/Messiah and #2, the Son of God." At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "I am." Please notice he's asking if Jesus is the Son of God, not "are you God." There's a reason for this which I will now explain.

At Matthew 16:13 Jesus ask the following question? "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" Peter answers at Matthew 16:16, "Thou art the Christ/Messiah #1 and #2, the Son of the living God." The same thing the high priest ask? Jesus also says to Peter that "My Father who is in heaven revealed this to you." Matthew 16:17.

Now, in the Hebrew language there are certain "idioms" which are used all througout the Bible not only in the Old Testament but in the New Testament as well. For example, "Sons of the prophets at 1 Kings 20:35 refer to men belonging to a prophetic band. Or "Sos of the goldsmiths at Nehimiah 3:31 is a goldsmith.

Right now I am focusing on the specific idiom "the son of." The follwoing idiom show the participation is a state or condition. Sons of affliction Provers 31:5, are afflicted ones. Or "Sons of exile were Jews who had lived in exile. There there is the "son of" idiom which shows a certain character. Son of valor 1 Samuel 14:52, is simply a "valiant man." Sons of foolishness at Job 30:8, refer to senseless people.

Now comes the "son of" which is the possessing a certain nature. This is the one were concerned with right now in the case of Jesus Christ. The expression "son of man" clearly exhibits the use of the word "son" to show the possession of a certain nature. Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Jesus Himself referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and of course the "Son of God." Jesus has two natures, one on His mothers side which is humand and one on His Father's side which of course is "Deity." This is how the Jews knew what Jesus meant and why they accused Him of blasphemy for claiming to be the "Son of God." And how they also understood what Jesus meant when He said, "I and My Father, we are one." This is talking about Jesus having the same nature as God His Father.

This is what I'm talking about when I say there is a common theme that connects all of this Biblical references I have give you. Lastly, the authorial intent of the Apostle John can be found at John 20:31, "but these have been written that you may believe that #1, Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and #2, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Notice just before John comes states this what the orthodox Jew Thomas declares at John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him/Jesus literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me." This is why I can close out my post by saying below,

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I almost forgot to post a few of the Ancient Hebrew Idioms. Please notice the "Son of" idiom is among them. I also forgot to give you a couple idioms from the New testament. Here are two!

Son of peace at Luke 10:6 refers to a peaceful person. Son of perdition at John 17:12 and 2 Thessolians 2:3 is the lost one. This one refers to Judas.

[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 600, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: cms_table, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 7.12[/TD]
[TD] Where I caused my name to dwell[/TD]
[TD] where I chose to be worshiped[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 9.1[/TD]
[TD] waters[/TD]
[TD] spring of water[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer. 25.15[/TD]
[TD] Wine of wrath[/TD]
[TD] my anger[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 50.33[/TD]
[TD] Sons of[/TD]
[TD] people of[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 51.37[/TD]
[TD] Hissing[/TD]
[TD] scorn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lam 1.16[/TD]
[TD] Eyes run down with water[/TD]
[TD] eyes flow with tears[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ezek 3.7[/TD]
[TD] Hard forehead[/TD]
[TD] stubborn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ezek 16.25[/TD]
[TD] Spread feet[/TD]
[TD] offer self for sex[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ezek 16.26[/TD]
[TD] Big of phallus[/TD]
[TD] lustful[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mal 1.11[/TD]
[TD] My name[/TD]
[TD] me[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mal 2.12[/TD]
[TD] he who awakens and he who answers[/TD]
[TD] every single person.



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Placid]

Hi Popeye,
　
Quote from Post 961:
Jesus is the God man,and still is.
You use the word "created" in regards to Jesus,as does Quasar.
Jesus is not created,nor did he come to inhabit a created body.
He became flesh.
It you have a problem with the trinity,then join the club,because it is beyond our brains as you and quasar have proven.
You both think you have to mentally corral all the dynamics of a truth.
We belive it because it is,not because we understand it.
Did you know man is a trinity?
Spirit,soul,and body. We are 3 but 1.....all at the same time.
And Jesus became a priest before his earthly ministry.
John,a levite,transferred the priesthood to Jesus,at baptism.The priesthood ITSELF CHANGED.
Jesus ministered,died,and rose again as a priest. His priesthood was not of aaron/ levitical. It was judaic/ David/ melchasidic.
Jesus BECAME MAN. The God man.
Not God in a created body. That is what we are.
　
Response: --- Don't be offended by what I say, but some time ago I posted the language or words of trinity, that are not in the Scripture, --- which came from the Roman Catholic doctrine that was written by men.
Bluto acknowledged that none of these are in the Scriptures, but it doesn't matter to those who believe what they have heard, rather than what the Scriptures say.
--- A common saying is, --- "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"

So let's examine the terms, and language of trinity in the Strong's Concordance, which is based on the King James which was the Bible we started out with.
The 'deity' of Christ, --- Not found, because the word 'deity' is not in the Bible'
The 'divinity' of Christ --- Not found --- since 'divinity' is not in the Scripture.
The word 'divine' is used twice in 2 Peter 1, which speak of God's 'divine power,' and 'divine nature,' --- but no 'divine beings.'
--- 'God Incarnate,' 'incarnation' and 'pre-incarnation' are not found in Scripture.
The words 'triune,' tri-unity,' and 'trinity,' are not found in the Scripture.
The term, 'co-equal,' --- is not in the Scripture
The concept of trinity, --- it was obviously not known to the Apostles, or they would have taught it.
--- A verse that says, 'Jesus is God,' --- or a verse where Jesus said, "I am God." --- No.
--- A verse that says, 'Christ is God,' --- or a verse where Christ said, "I am God." --- No.
And there are no verses that say Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth.
--- And no 'God-man.' ---But it does say that "Jesus was born on earth."
--- There are no places where it says, 'the Word was Jesus,' or that says, 'Jesus was the Word.'
However, it does say that the Word was God, in John 1:1 --- so we do have two Gods, (which perhaps was their discussion that led to the first Nicene Creed.)

Basically, there is no wording in the Scripture that supports the concept of trinity. --- the thing it does is try to bring Almighty God down to the level of subordinates.
　
--- I will answer your statements later with words in the Scripture.

 

[bluto]

Wow placid, I can't let what you said pass without me responding to your list of terms. First of all you said, "The deity of Christ is not found in the Bible. That is not true? Colossians 2:9 says, "For in Him/Jesus Christ all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (KJB). Now, I happen to use the NASB and it uses the word "Deity" instead of Godhead. The following is the definition of Godhead.

"The Greek manuscript word should be rendered 'divinity' or 'deity'. Many Bible scholars and translators have realized that 'godhead' does not convey clear meaning. ... 'Godhead' in Colossians 2:9 of the KJV is a translation of the Greek theotees, which is "an abstract noun for theos," the usual Greek word translated 'God'."

Since this is true placid, all the rest of the terms which are listed are made void because it only takes one verse or model to nullify them. Secondly, as I go through the list it says, "'A verse that says Jesus is God." Well how about the delcaration of Thomas at John 20:28? "Thomas answered and said to Him/Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Why would an orthodox Jew say that Jesus Christ was his Lord and God when the Jews who uphold the "Shema" at Deuteronmy 6:4? In fact, why does not Jesus correct Thomas and tell him, "No Thomas I'm not your Lord and God because there is only one God?

But, you want to know the big mistake your making? Your have a list of terms and just because they are not explicitly found in the Bible (except the term Godhead which means Deity is found in the Bible) you reason that Jesus can't be God. And you know what else is sad? You said, "there is no wording in the Scripture that supports the concept of trinity."

I gave you proof that the Trinity is a Biblical based on the fact that there are three and only three persons in the Bible that are "CLEARLY" identified as God. I even gave a list of how the Bible identifies God. By His names, His titles, His unique actions, His unique attributes and His worship. These are all spelled out in my first post of this thread. And btw, you conclude by saying, "so we do have two Gods, (which perhaps was their discussion that led to the first Nicene Creed.)"

The purpose of the Nicea Council at 325A.D. was to argue agains "Arianism" who taught that Jesus Christ was a created being and not God. The Jehovah Witnesses are "Arians." And there are a multitude of groups and cults or deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. And yes, John 1:1 does identify Jesus Christ as the Logos/Word who is not only with God but is God.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

There is and was only ONE TRIUNE GOD. He was revealed in His unity in the OT and revealed in triuneness in the NT.

Contrary to your heresy the Holy Spirit was NEVER the Father of Jesus.

God was initially tripartite. The 'Father' and 'Son' were ideas introduced by humans to explain HIM.

The Scriptures refute you. God is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus as documented in 471! The heresy is the attempt to teach God is triune, when it cannot be taught from the Bible and Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught such a thing! If you don't believe mje, let me see you try proving the Trinity fromj the Bible! By the same token, all of 471 can be taught frm the Buble !


Qiasar92

 

[Quasar92]

1. <quote>Quasar says ; God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. </quote>​

The fact that God is holy makes no difference at all to the fact that the Holy Spirit is a separate persona in the Triune God as the NT makes clear,
​

The Scriptures refute you/. Review 970 for the reasons why. None of the Scriptures you posted prove one single thing as to the doctrine of the Trinity! Let me see you try proving it. No one hs yet! By the same tken, all of 471 can be taught and proven by the Scritures.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Watchtower doctrine

False! Let me see you prove the Biblical Description of God I psted in 471 comes close t what the JW's teach! Your opinion without a shred of Scriptural prof is meaningless!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

1. <quote>Quasar says ; God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. </quote>​

The fact that God is holy makes no difference at all to the fact that the Holy Spirit is a separate persona in the Triune God as the NT makes clear,​

The Scriptures I posted in 471 refute you!. Review 970.


Quasar92

 

[bluto]

You said this quasar, "Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled."

The fact is quasar, the Son of God Jesus Christ did appear in many places in the Old Testament. This is what Hebrews 6:13,14 says, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." So quasar, who and where do you think God swore this oath by Himself in the Old Testament?

It's at Genesis 22 where Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Isaac to God. Vs1, "Now it came about after these things that GOD tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Now starting at Genesis 22:10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Now watch what happens quasar. Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Vs12, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withhelld your son, your only son, from ME.

At vs13 the Lord provides a ram for Abraham to sacrifice. At vs14, And Abraham called the name of the place "The Lord Will Provide." Now it gets even more interesting quasar. Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Vs18, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have OBEYED MY VOCIE." So quasar, I have a simple question for you? Who is the angel of the Lord?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

You said this quasar, "Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled."

The fact is quasar, the Son of God Jesus Christ did appear in many places in the Old Testament. This is what Hebrews 6:13,14 says, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." So quasar, who and where do you think God swore this oath by Himself in the Old Testament?

It's at Genesis 22 where Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Isaac to God. Vs1, "Now it came about after these things that GOD tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Now starting at Genesis 22:10, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Now watch what happens quasar. Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Vs12, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withhelld your son, your only son, from ME.

At vs13 the Lord provides a ram for Abraham to sacrifice. At vs14, And Abraham called the name of the place "The Lord Will Provide." Now it gets even more interesting quasar. Vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

Vs18, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have OBEYED MY VOCIE." So quasar, I have a simple question for you? Who is the angel of the Lord?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

The Scriptures refute you! Read Lk.1:32-35 to learn when Jesus received His name, title and deity as the Son of God/God the Son! The pre-incarnate Jesus origin is fully described by Scripture in 471. You're laboring under false pretenses. Review it carefully and see for yourself. If Jesus was the Son of God/God the Son in the OT, it would break many passages such as Isa.45:5! The pre-incarnate person who later became Jesus, was never an angel He created them !


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

He is the Son of God – He is 'His Son' --- He is 'MY Son' (Matt 3.17; 17.5; 21.27) – He is 'The Son' (John 5.19 and often) – He is the only Son of the God (John 1.18; 3.16) – He is the only Son of the Father (John 1.14) --- He is the First and the Last, the Living One (Rev 1.17) --- He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 22.13), --- He is the Holy One (John 6.69; Acts 13.35) – He is the LORD (YHWH) --- He is the Lord of Glory (1 Cor 2.8) – He is our great God and Saviour (Tit 2.13) --- He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1.15) – He is the outshining of His glory and the express image of His substance (Heb 1.3) --- In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form (Col 2.9).


He is omnipresent (Heb 1.3; Matt 18.20; 28.29), He is omniscient (Matt 11.27), He is judge of the living and the dead (2 Tim 4.1), He will bring about the resurrection (John 5.25-29), Men call on His Name (1 Cor 1.1-2; Acts 7.59).


He can open the eyes of the blind.

FYI, Rev.1:8 is a statement by God, the Father, not Jesus: "8 [FONT=&quot]“I am the Alpha and the Omega,”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the Almighty.” Review Jn.8:28!


[/FONT]Quasar92

 

[VCO]

Read the following very carefully and watch who and what you call a heretic and who's teachings are false!

Proverbs 8:22-25 KJV and NASB


22"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"
Proverbs 8:22-25 NIV
“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,"


Gen.14:19 "And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high
God, possessor of heaven and earth:" KJV and NASB


Gen.14:19 "and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High,Creator of heaven and earth." NIV


Gen.14:22 "And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth," KJV and NASB
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Gen.14:22 "Abram replied to the king of Sodom, "I solemnly swear to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth," NIV[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]From the above, the origin of the spirit who later became the incarnate Jesus, is shown here aw the FIRSTORN over all creation, as recorded in Col.1:15.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Definition of FIRSTBORN:[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]adj.
[/FONT]
1. first in the order of birth; eldest.
n.2. a firstborn child.
3. a first result or product.


[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]The incarnation of Jesus is recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35:[/FONT]
Heb.10:5 "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;"


One of many examples of spirits entering the body of a person or an animal. Including Satan entering into Judas.


Mk.5:1"Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an uncleanspirit came out of the tombs and met Him. 3 He lived in the tombs. No one was able to restrain him anymore—even with chains— 4 because he often had been bound with shackles and chains, but had snapped off the chains and smashed the shackles. No one was strong enough to subduehim. 5 And always, night and day, he was crying out among the tombsand in the mountains and cutting himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before Him.7 And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me,[b]Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg[c] You before God, don’t torment me!” 8 For He had told him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”


Lk.22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."


The above Scriptural facts fully support what I have posted.



Quasar92

Quazar92, you might want to study the Jewish Customs surrounding the Firstborn Birthrights as practiced by the JEWS and their legal implications, before you try to give the definition firstborn.

YOU MISSED A VERY IMPORTANT and PERFECTLY LEGAL MEANING. Yes, then can mean the literal first male child born, HOWEVER NOT ALWAYS.

FIRSTBORN, is a TITLE, and with it goes the TITLE "SON OF" whoever the father is. THE FATHER DID NOT HAVE TO GIVE THAT TITLE to His OFFSPRING, it only was designating WHO had the right to INHERIT all that Father has, not who is the eldest offspring. THE FATHER COULD GIVE THAT TITLE TO ANYONE HE WANTED TO. It did not have to be in writing either, it could even be given on one's death bed, and it was LEGALLY BINDING IF THERE WERE TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. The one given the TITLE FIRSTBORN, had the right to use the TITLE "SON OF" even if the FIRSTBORN TITLE was given to a SERVANT.

HENCE, THE TITLE "SON OF GOD", DOES NOT MEAN OFFSPRING OF GOD. IT MEANS "THE ONE THAT HAS THE RIGHT TO INHERIT ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS". That would include the FATHER's DEITY.

John 16:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you.


Now, I want to show you the most FAMOUS example of the FIRSTBORN Birthright, being given to a NON-Family member, even though most Christians have never recognized it as such, because most Christians do not bother to study Jewish Customs and Traditions.

When Joseph married Mary, the law of the land was NO WOMEN could inherit property. Mary's father, Heli, was a rich property owner, and Joseph, inherited quite a bit from his father. Heli died having NO SONS, and women could not have property in their name, so Heli must have named Joseph his FIRSTBORN, because Joseph's name appears as the Son of Heli in Mary's geneology. Luke 3:23, validates this, even though Mat. 1:16 clearly points out that Jacob was the father of Joseph.

But it gets even more interesting when you KNOW that is the Jewish customs.

Joseph clearly had passed away prior to the Crucifixion of Jesus, because Mary went home with JOHN that day.

Remember, our Bibles only have the highlights of what all happened, NOT EVERY DETAIL.

John 21:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.

So Joseph inherited both the Property of Jacob and Heli. So who became the one who inherited the property when Joseph died. The Bible does not say, but we have a very big clue, considering the FIRSTBORN Inheritance Laws. I believe evidence points to JESUS as the one who temporarily inherited the property. Even if Joseph had a heart attack before He named the heir, it would have gone to the eldest son of Mary, which is Jesus. NOW LOOK AT THIS EVIDENCE:

John 19:25-27 (ASV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold, thy mother! And from that hour the disciple took her unto his own home.


There, present are the MANDATORY three witnesses for the passing on of the FIRSTBORN BIRTHRIGHT. Jesus, in saying what he did to His mother and to John, was passing the Firstborn Birthright TO JOHN. John legally inherited all the property of Joseph, so that he had plenty to take care of the Mother of Jesus. John from the moment that Jesus said that, had the right to use the TITLE, "Son of Joseph". Doubt that is Legal, look it up, I DID. And in Israel it is still legal to pass the Inheritance Birthright that way. REMEMBER the Birthright could even be SOLD, Gen. 25:31.

 

[Quasar92]

Quasar seems watchtower.

That " mighty" vs " almighty" is watchtower heresy and right out of their literature

Yours is a continuing prcews of shooting yourself in the foot! The Biblical Description of God I posted in 471 can readily be taught fron the Bible and does not equate in any way with what the JW;s believe. Opinion is meaningless without a shred of Scriptural support! ry prving it,. Nr can you prove the Trinity from the Bible, that Jesus not His disciples ever taught. Try proving that, popeye! That is the heresy!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Quazar92, you might want to study the Jewish Customs surrounding the Firstborn Birthrights as practiced by the JEWS and their legal implications, before you try to give the definition firstborn.

YOU MISSED A VERY IMPORTANT and PERFECTLY LEGAL MEANING. Yes, then can mean the literal first male child born, HOWEVER NOT ALWAYS.

FIRSTBORN, is a TITLE, and with it goes the TITLE "SON OF" whoever the father is. THE FATHER DID NOT HAVE TO GIVE THAT TITLE to His OFFSPRING, it only was designating WHO had the right to INHERIT all that Father has, not who is the eldest offspring. THE FATHER COULD GIVE THAT TITLE TO ANYONE HE WANTED TO. It did not have to be in writing either, it could even be given on one's death bed, and it was LEGALLY BINDING IF THERE WERE TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. The one given the TITLE FIRSTBORN, had the right to use the TITLE "SON OF" even if the FIRSTBORN TITLE was given to a SERVANT.

HENCE, THE TITLE "SON OF GOD", DOES NOT MEAN OFFSPRING OF GOD. IT MEANS "THE ONE THAT HAS THE RIGHT TO INHERIT ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS". That would include the FATHER's DEITY.

John 16:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you.


Now, I want to show you the most FAMOUS example of the FIRSTBORN Birthright, being given to a NON-Family member, even though most Christians have never recognized it as such, because most Christians do not bother to study Jewish Customs and Traditions.

When Joseph married Mary, the law of the land was NO WOMEN could inherit property. Mary's father, Heli, was a rich property owner, and Joseph, inherited quite a bit from his father. Heli died having NO SONS, and women could not have property in their name, so Heli must have named Joseph his FIRSTBORN, because Joseph's name appears as the Son of Heli in Mary's geneology. Luke 3:23, validates this, even though Mat. 1:16 clearly points out that Jacob was the father of Joseph.

But it gets even more interesting when you KNOW that is the Jewish customs.

Joseph clearly had passed away prior to the Crucifixion of Jesus, because Mary went home with JOHN that day.

Remember, our Bibles only have the highlights of what all happened, NOT EVERY DETAIL.

John 21:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.

So Joseph inherited both the Property of Jacob and Heli. So who became the one who inherited the property when Joseph died. The Bible does not say, but we have a very big clue, considering the FIRSTBORN Inheritance Laws. I believe evidence points to JESUS as the one who temporarily inherited the property. Even if Joseph had a heart attack before He named the heir, it would have gone to the eldest son of Mary, which is Jesus. NOW LOOK AT THIS EVIDENCE:

John 19:25-27 (ASV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold, thy mother! And from that hour the disciple took her unto his own home.


There, present are the MANDATORY three witnesses for the passing on of the FIRSTBORN BIRTHRIGHT. Jesus, in saying what he did to His mother and to John, was passing the Firstborn Birthright TO JOHN. John legally inherited all the property of Joseph, so that he had plenty to take care of the Mother of Jesus. John from the moment that Jesus said that, had the right to use the TITLE, "Son of Joseph". Doubt that is Legal, look it up, I DID. And in Israel it is still legal to pass the Inheritance Birthright that way. REMEMBER the Birthright could even be SOLD, Gen. 25:31.

My remarks in 977 fully support the meaning of FIRSTBORN, according to the Scriptural support provided for it. Furthermore, it means exactly the same as hw Pau used the word in Col.18., as well.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

YOU CAN NOT DENY THE DEITY OF JESUS,ETERNALLY PAST,ETERNALLY FUTURE,AND BE COUNTED AS A BELIEVER,SAINT,OR CHRISTIAN.

YOU ARE IN FACT,IF YOU DO SO,A HERETIC

Though your post does not identify who you are calling a heretic, I assume you have directed it to me, from some of your other posts.

Get this, the heretics are those who defend with their very lives, the man made doctrine of the Trinity, that cannot be taught from the Bible, nor was it ever taught by Jesus or any of His disciples! That is what a heresy is! By the same token, the Biblical Description of God I posted in 471 CAN BE taught from the Bible. Capiche! Your posts, such as this one is nothing but meaningless opinion, without a shred of Scripture to support your views, A complete waste of time!


Quasar92