Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Stunned - Let me bring a revelation to you. They are lying. This is exactly what they believe
but they want to say this is not what they are meaning because it sounds so wrong.

But that is exactly the deception. Unless people can put the ideas together to mean they
can actually walk righteously and in purity, which they continually deny, this is their position.

Now liars have a problem, consistent truth does not matter to them.

As a human I can hold two opposite ideas and deny they are opposite because emotionally
I am happy about it all, and as long as I do not look at the contradiction everything is fine.

This is what blindness is.

So EG says if I say God chooses us because he sees something worthy in us, that is works
salvation. The error is what God sees as worthy He does not declare, but if we were not
of value to Him, we would not be chosen. The apostles seemed to express this as innocense,
lost in sin, with a potential to have a loving relationship with Him.

Jesus seemed to be saying love in the heart of man, no matter how small was a seed of hope.

Now in the end it is obvious both EG and Grace777 will not change, even if their positions are
totally flawed. They hold a mirage of faith, but deny its essential realities, to bring us to reality,
truth and freedom, to literally switch the light on to the nature of sin and how to be free.

But blind people declare their blindness by declaring their slavery to sin, and denying there is
ever any freedom, and that is what Christ meant. Now if Christ has touched your heart, you
know what I am talking about.

no they are not lying. I caught YOU in a straight-up lie a couple of weeks ago. you stated that you do not tell others what they believe. you do this all the time. so, saying that you do not do something that you do is lie.

so this in itself disqualifies you from you own system

.

And this is the kind of nonsense/garbage that we keep getting. This is the reason some of us have to limit our interaction with this type of mindset to as little as possible and unfortunately we need to implement Romans 16:17.

He has called believers in grace every name that is possible from being satanic, to liars, to lovers of sin, false teachers, heretics, demonic...etc.

When we see repentance and the behavior changes than we can have civil discussions. Until then we wish him the best and leave him in the hands of the Lord. The Lord will be faithful to Him and reveal Himself to him.

 

[Gr8grace]

Salvation is the key that turns the lock on a future with our Savior

you know, I pretty much grew up believing as I do now...guess God blessed me with a church that had a very good foundational belief in salvation and what it required......BELIEVE!!!

I have learned heaps through study and life, but that foundation is what my little chateau is built on!!

seems some folks are building shacks and some are even constructing outhouses

God is a much better architect!!

That's great to hear. I bounced around in religion for a LONG time before I found a Grace centered assembly.

It's fun to watch my kids grow up in Truth. Heck, they are ahead of me. I have a lot of religion to shake off yet.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stunned - Let me bring a revelation to you. They are lying. This is exactly what they believe
but they want to say this is not what they are meaning because it sounds so wrong.

But that is exactly the deception. Unless people can put the ideas together to mean they
can actually walk righteously and in purity, which they continually deny, this is their position.

Now liars have a problem, consistent truth does not matter to them.

As a human I can hold two opposite ideas and deny they are opposite because emotionally
I am happy about it all, and as long as I do not look at the contradiction everything is fine.

This is what blindness is.

So EG says if I say God chooses us because he sees something worthy in us, that is works
salvation. The error is what God sees as worthy He does not declare, but if we were not
of value to Him, we would not be chosen. The apostles seemed to express this as innocense,
lost in sin, with a potential to have a loving relationship with Him.

Jesus seemed to be saying love in the heart of man, no matter how small was a seed of hope.

Now in the end it is obvious both EG and Grace777 will not change, even if their positions are
totally flawed. They hold a mirage of faith, but deny its essential realities, to bring us to reality,
truth and freedom, to literally switch the light on to the nature of sin and how to be free.

But blind people declare their blindness by declaring their slavery to sin, and denying there is
ever any freedom, and that is what Christ meant. Now if Christ has touched your heart, you
know what I am talking about.

I cannot talk to you when you act this way, peter. And I don't want to argue and to call people liars just because I do not understand the way they explain a thing. I want to truly understand if they are just explaining a thing in a way that I cannot understand. I don't want to insist that they rephrase it in a different way, but my tenaciousness wants instead to understand WHAT they mean to say. I do not want to be a word nazi and insist that they must use the words I prefer or else they are lying. I want to hear what they mean, not what they say. Because when people speak, they are using words to convey a meaning. They are not using a meaning to convey words. The words are just a tool. I have no desire to insist they use my words. In fact, I think that to insist on that is very controlling. I admit it can be very frustrating to try to get at the meaning when others won't at least try to use a different word or phrase than the one that is confounding me or that I seem to just have a block over. But for both sides to become so entrenched and mulish that they will not even try harder but just resort to insisting each other lost or evil or liars - that is the point where it becomes useless to even speak together because then words become a different thing than they are meant to be, which is tools to convey an idea - it is then that words just become implements of war.

I have been through that with others, for instance, someone who was greatly bothered by anyone using the word "we" or "us." It took great effort on my part to try to always say "I" or "me" instead around them. For some reason, this person did not hear "us" when I said "us." They instead heard "you" and thought I was very self-righteous and arrogant. And they thought when I said "us" that I was saying "everyone else but me!" I cannot express how difficult a conversation became with her because in my mind, my brothers and sisters and I are "we," not "me." But I had a few choices. I could grit my teeth, dig in my heels, and insist on using the words I preferred to antagonize and crank her up further in her snit, or I could try to use words that were not so offensive to her, or I could just cease conversation because I thought she was being very unaccommodating, demanding and controlling of others even down to every picayune word. Those were my choices.

 

[eph610]

Is there a word that describes this building of relationship with the living Lord? Does someone need to have had supernatural encounters (as Moses, or Paul did) with God to build this relationship?

I would think all relationship with God is supernatural, seeing he is a Spirit....

 

[eph610]

Yeah, I had you pegged from the beginning. You are just relying on your "fruits" and what you are doing as evidence of your salvation.

You Sir, are the most dangerous deception. You are sooooooooo close to the truth, that most don't see your deception.

My "fruit" is not the evidence of my salvation, it is evidence of a life totally committed and totally surrendered to Christ and the advancement of the Kingdom...

So once again I will ask you and you will refuse to answer, is it OK to be saved and not be totally surrendered to Jesus Christ and what he wants from you?

You seem more interested in destroying the messenger and not the message...

SO tell us what we are missing gr8grace, tell us how we are so deceived..

 

[eph610]

And Brother, don't falter on this message. We do NOT have to explain our fruits or our works to others. It is by Grace or it is not.

The people looking for fruits or works are ALWAYS unbelievers or believers who have fallen from Grace. Those believers haven't fallen from salvation, but they have fallen from Grace.

Nobody has to explain their fruits, because they should be seen, if they are not seen then something is wrong with your walk, not your salvation, but you don't see that....

Again big guy tell us why we don't have to grow in Christ.....

 

[Gr8grace]

So once again I will ask you and you will refuse to answer, is it OK to be saved and not be totally surrendered to Jesus Christ and what he wants from you?

I would never refuse to answer that. Why would you think that?

No it would not be ok. One would have SHAME face to face with the Creator of everything, who loves unconditionally. And they pissed away everything that he prepared for them in ADVANCE.

But they are still saved. Just naked and shining shoes,happily, for those who advanced and lived the Christian way of life.


Now.....you answer. Would your religion have that person in the LoF or with their Savior?

 

[Chester]

Well in my view.. that guy will get a rude awakening, when he is standing next to people who say Lord Lord, I did all these works, (legalists) because they will both be in the same boat.

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Like I said, I have never witnessed it, and if I saw a church that did teach this, they would be of the small minority of churches, and I would run so fast from them, and pray no one I knew went there, Because trying to explain to him discipleship and christian growth would be hard. And he would call me a legalist. because I would be calling him out for his sin (like Paul did, and every other apostle and disciple did)



Thats good to know. I know many people who went through this, Including myself.



ok. but this may make it hard.. just saying.

Great! I think we have both seen the tragedy of people who believe works will win them brownie points with God!

 

[Chester]

thanks for the response.

But just for clarification. If you do not. We can get no where with our discussion.

Because you are not explaining your response, it becomes a one way conversation.

but as I said earlier, I will nto judge you

I understand - and I am very willing and ready to give my arguments -- on why Argument # 2 is invalid - though I would say like you do about # 1 that in some cases argument #2 is true (that is - there are many/some who do not believe in OSAS who do believe, teach, and live in a works gospel).

I will open another thread sometime in the next week or so! I will have to be sure I have some time to respond!

You get your guns ready and I will get my guns ready! Until then dig into the trenches!!!

Really - Just kidding! I really think we need and are benefitted by exchanges where we may disagree, but at the same time try to hear and understand the other's view without namecalling and anger!

 

[Chester]

then by this fact, and Gods promise, Salvation can never be lost

In actuality - I would say "then by this fact, and God's promise, salvation can be lost"

HOLD THE FIRE - I am ducking for cover!!!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My "fruit" is not the evidence of my salvation, it is evidence of a life totally committed and totally surrendered to Christ and the advancement of the Kingdom...

So once again I will ask you and you will refuse to answer, is it OK to be saved and not be totally surrendered to Jesus Christ and what he wants from you?

You seem more interested in destroying the messenger and not the message...

SO tell us what we are missing gr8grace, tell us how we are so deceived..

Are you perfect?

If you answered no, You answered your own question,

the Corinthian church were called babes, not able to eat meat. Why7 had they not grown to where Paul said they should be? They were not totally surrendered. Yet Paul calls them children of God.

.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nobody has to explain their fruits, because they should be seen, if they are not seen then something is wrong with your walk, not your salvation, but you don't see that....

Again big guy tell us why we don't have to grow in Christ.....

if that is a requirement for salvation. They we are saved by works,, not grace.

Maybe you are wording it wrong. The word "have to" makes it a legalistic thought

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In actuality - I would say "then by this fact, and God's promise, salvation can be lost"

HOLD THE FIRE - I am ducking for cover!!!!!

No fire, we can discuss when your ready,

 

[eph610]

great questions here. Thanks



We are said to be sanctified already, While at the same time, we are called to allow God sanctify us, ot told God is sanctifying us.

So I believe there are two types.

Positional - Set apart by God, seperate from the world. Perfected. Declared righteous. Justified. etc etc.

Conditional. - Daily, even moment by moment, How we act, are we acting like Chirst, Or from the flesh (the world) and how is our life.. more christlike, or less..

not sure what you mean by consecration.

but I do believe people confuse justification with conditional sanctification.


It is a judicial act enacted on a child of God the moment we are saved.

It also is right living. acting like your true nature (we were born again with a new nature) and not like your old.


Position, your either saved or your not. no inbetween.


They can't, They may be misplaced. and not be able to be used (ie the prodigal son) but they are still yours..

If you pound the table that salvation is not conditional how can you suggest everything else is conditional and you have to work at it!?!

What happened to those that are saved but don't work out the conditional aspects of sanctification and righteousness

 

[eph610]

1. You added to the word. Naughty Naughty

2. Just take him literally. Why try to add anything.

If we are faithless (we lack faith) he is faithful He can not deny himself (he promised eternal life to all who hear the word of truth, and call out to him to be saved, He will keep his word. even when we lose faith. because to take his gift back would be to deny his own word.

This smells a lot like universalism to me....that everyone who mentally assents will be saved and he has to save them because it is his faith that saves not personal faith of the unbeliever...and if he did'nt he would be found a liar...so he has to...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you pound the table that salvation is not conditional how can you suggest everything else is conditional and you have to work at it!?!

Unless salvation is by works, your left with no choice. Making the "after we are saved" work a requirement to be saved is no different than making it a :before we are saved" requirement. I.e., We are not officially saved until we die. And are resurrected.

What happened to those that are saved but don't work out the conditional aspects of sanctification and righteousness

No one will work out the conditional aspects of sanctification and righteousness according to Gods requirement (perfection) it is a work we will continue until the day we die. We will not meet Gods standard until we are riesen, and given our new bodies completely free of sin and the flesh.

so to answer your question. If meeting those conditions are required. No one will be saved.

 

[BrokenSparrow]

This is something that has always confused me. How people believe differently on this issue. I was taught that salvation can be lost because of how we treat it. According to our works or deeds. That is what scares me because I can't seem to quit sinning no matter how hard I try. I just keep on failing. I don't want to sin and feel so guilty over it. I'm afraid that God will not keep forgiving me and I really can't even forgive myself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This smells a lot like universalism to me....that everyone who mentally assents will be saved and he has to save them because it is his faith that saves not personal faith of the unbeliever...and if he did'nt he would be found a liar...so he has to...

Faith is not mental ascent.

That is your first issue, Faith is an assurance that God will do what he promised to do. Based on a truly repent tent heart.

Mere belief has never, and will never save anyone.

 

[eph610]

I would never refuse to answer that. Why would you think that?

No it would not be ok. One would have SHAME face to face with the Creator of everything, who loves unconditionally. And they pissed away everything that he prepared for them in ADVANCE.

But they are still saved. Just naked and shining shoes,happily, for those who advanced and lived the Christian way of life.


Now.....you answer. Would your religion have that person in the LoF or with their Savior?

What is LoF grace, seriously have no clue what you are saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is something that has always confused me. How people believe differently on this issue. I was taught that salvation can be lost because of how we treat it. According to our works or deeds. That is what scares me because I can't seem to quit sinning no matter how hard I try. I just keep on failing. I don't want to sin and feel so guilty over it. I'm afraid that God will not keep forgiving me and I really can't even forgive myself.

Look to God, not yourself. You will never meet Gods standard. That is sinless perfection. No one ever has, only Christ. That's why you need, and will always need grace, Satan wants to judge you, and keep you focused on how sinful you are. God wants to save you,. Become your abba Father, and love you as any father can love a precious child.

A parent does not disown a child because the child is not perfect. Neither would God.