what has been fulfilled?

zone · Nov 19, 2016

the bolded part is a real stretch. its nonsense.
jews don't keep the word of God, and they are taught to hate Jesus.

look into it yourself.
I already showed you they admit happily to holding to the very traditions of the elders Jesus condemned their forefathers for.

abcdef said:

no, all scholars agree the fourth beast was Rome (Imperial)

abcdef said:

there's no THE ANTICHRIST in scripture.
if its there, show me.

abcdef said:

I already showed you it is.
it just messes up the theology you are so invested in, so you pass it by (even though I know it causes discomfort)

abcdef said:

what rubbish

abcdef said:

rome is not and was not ever the woman - Israel was.
read the whole bible or we have no discussion.
i'll find an old thread on this - I used to spend a lot of time posting on it, but I can't be bothered much now.
nobody ever changes their mind/

abcdef said:

yawn

abcdef · Nov 19, 2016

zone said:

the bolded part is a real stretch. its nonsense.
jews don't keep the word of God, and they are taught to hate Jesus.

look into it yourself.
I already showed you they admit happily to holding to the very traditions of the elders Jesus condemned their forefathers for.

no, all scholars agree the fourth beast was Rome (Imperial)

there's no THE ANTICHRIST in scripture.
if its there, show me.

I already showed you it is.
it just messes up the theology you are so invested in, so you pass it by (even though I know it causes discomfort)

what rubbish

rome is not and was not ever the woman - Israel was.
read the whole bible or we have no discussion.
i'll find an old thread on this - I used to spend a lot of time posting on it, but I can't be bothered much now.
nobody ever changes their mind/

yawn

Ok, Thanks,

I can see some of what you believe now.

Ariel82 · Nov 20, 2016

Revelation 21
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God.

**** according to those scriptures Jerasulem doesn't descend from Heaven until Rev 21....so doesn't that imply that in Rev. 20 it's still in Heaven?

Ahwatukee · Nov 20, 2016

Ariel82 said:

Hello Ariel82,

I am in agreement with your assessment. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of Jesus' return to the earth to end the age, which takes place some time after the 7th bowl is poured out, which completes God's wrath. The chronological order of events is the completion of God's wrath, Jesus returns to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan is locked up in the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ. Once Christ returns for His thousand year reign, then at the end of that thousand years Satan is released for one last rebellion and is then thrown into the lake of fire. The great white throne judgment takes place, then God creates a new heaven and new earth, which is where the New Jerusalem comes down to. Some try to interpret the new Jerusalem as coming down to this present earth, but that would not be in keeping with the chronology of events in Revelation.

ZEEK · Nov 20, 2016

Jerusalem - The Great City - the mother of us all / the mother of US All

PlainWord · Nov 20, 2016

zone said:

I respect you a great deal sister but have to disagree with you on this. Herod did not fulfill Dan 11:36. Herod was not from the north nor did he set up anything abominable at the fortress of the temple which precedes this passage. The Abomination of Desolation (Dan 11:31 and Mat 24:15) has not taken place.

Jesus makes clear that when the A of D (as spoken of by Daniel) is seen, that those in Judea are to flee. Nobody fled from Herod and he died shortly after Jesus was born. Herod made vast improvements to the Temple, he didn't defile it nor did he destroy it. For Jesus to be speaking of Herod, He would have had to be speaking in the past and He wasn't, as He was giving a warning to flee a future event.

Paul, in 2 Thes 2, gives the same message as Dan 11:36 and relates it to an event prior to the return of Christ. This also proves a future context for Dan 11:36, Mat 24:15 and 2 Thes 2:3-4.

PlainWord · Nov 20, 2016

I'm just jumping into this now. Didn't read all 21 pages but want to clear up a few things.

1) Revelation employs massive amounts of figurative language, most of which is not literal. John uses OT symbols found in the OT prophets writings especially Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel. He did this to protect himself and the churches he wrote to should the Romans find his writings. Anyone who doesn't understand this and wants to apply literal interpretations to Revelation would be better off closing the book and forgetting that it exists because you will get it 100% wrong.

2) Nearly everything revealed in Revelation was previously revealed in OT passages but this isn't to say that John doesn't provide additional details for previously discussed events, as he does. However, if you see something which seems completely brand new with no companion passage found anywhere else, be wary of it.

Understanding these two rules will go along way in helping those who study prophesy to better understand it.

PlainWord · Nov 20, 2016

The two witnesses of Rev 11 is figurative, in fact, the entire chapter is figurative. Most of the symbolism concerning the two witnesses comes from Zec 4. One must first understand Zec 4 before attempting to understand Rev 11.

The below is not my work, I just Googled it. This is the picture that was shown Zechariah and an plausible interpretation.

psalm6819 · Nov 20, 2016

@zone, is it really necessary to be rude and dimissive of those who do not share your views?

Can you truly say Jesus would speak in the same rough shod manner to believers?

Do you think He would speak to you in the same manner as you address your brethern?

I have applied these same thoughts to myself so I'm not condeming.........

but it is worth considering

PlainWord · Nov 20, 2016

Rev 11 starts with John being told to measure the temple and those worshiping there. By this time, there was no temple standing in Jerusalem so nothing for John to measure and indeed, he did not record any measurements. You don't measure people anyway, you count them. John was not to measure those outside the temple for they are Gentiles treading the Holy City.

Since there was no physical temple for John to measure nor people worshiping in a physical temple then another explanation should be sought. Do we have a spiritual temple taught in the NT?

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

This passage from Eph 2 really tells the whole story. Every Christian needs to understand this as this lesson from Paul is SO VERY IMPORTANT!! IT really is the foundation of our faith.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SUP]20 [/SUP]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, [SUP]21 [/SUP]in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, [SUP]22 [/SUP]in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

You see, we Christians (ALL THOSE WHO ARE SAVED or WILL BE SAVED) make up the Temple of God. There will be no other temple built now, or in the future. PERIOD end of STORY. I know this because we are taught this in many places such as Zec 6 and Dan 9:27.

I don't not agree 100% with the drawing above. The artist is on the right track, however. The two witnesses are not two literal men as men do not breath fire consuming their enemies in a literal sense and beasts don't crawl up from a pit and wage war, in a literal sense. These things are symbolic. We don't even have to guess what a lampstand is as John tells us in Rev 1. A lampstand is a church. Since a lampstand is a church in Rev 1, it would seem logical that it is still a church in Rev 11.

zone · Nov 20, 2016

PlainWord said:

herod wasn't the king of the north.
he is only mentioned as the king.

here's something from the past....please take the time to consider it.
it'll get to herod.

......

Daniel 10,
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

so Cyrus is in power at the time.
Gabriel tells Daniel he (Gabriel) had aided Darius.

Daniel 11
The Overthrow of Persia
1Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. 2And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

the fourth certainly to be Xerxes:

2a. and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Xerxes

Xerxes I of Persia....meaning "ruling over heroes".....also known as Xerxes the Great....was the fourth King of Kings of Persia.

Xerxes I of Persia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Xerxes addresses the council of Persian leaders, and states his reasons for invading Greece: revenge, gain, living up to the glorious Persian tradition. His hubristic dream of world domination. A prize is offered to the general who produces the best troops...
Herodotus: Book Seven

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Xerxes-I

3. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

Alexander

Exactly 150 years after Xerxes burned Athens to the ground, Alexander was in the midst of his campaigning in Asia. After defeating the Persian armies on three occasions, he occupied the capital Persepolis...Though himself a non-Greek Macedonian, Alexander always thought of himself as the champion and exponent of Greek culture, and here seems to fancy himself avenging Athens’ destruction.

Athens on Fire

4. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Alexander the Great, quickly and powerfully conquered the Persians in a brilliant series of battles, and Greece became the masters of the Oriental World. Alexander died....after his death his empire was divided into four Kingdoms, the most important were Seleucus in Asia, and Ptolemy in Africa. In the division Israel became a part of Syria, under the authority of Seleucus. Shortly after Israel was ruled by Ptolemy Soter, the ruler of Egypt, and he and his successors ruled Israel....the dominion switched to the Seleucid line and Israel in their dominion. The Seleucid's ruled Israel with great cruelty until...the Maccabees revolted and threw off their yoke and Israel became virtually independent for a period...

The Greek Empire (Bible History Online)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

Alexander the Great Empire Map

CONT....

zone · Nov 20, 2016

CONT:

5. And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

Seleucus king of the north - stronger and a greater dominion than Ptolemy

Seleucus I ...was a leading officer of Alexander the Great's League of Corinth and one of the Diadochi. In the Wars of the Diadochi that took place after Alexander's death, Seleucus established the Seleucid dynasty and the Seleucid Empire. His kingdom would be one of the last holdouts of Alexander's former empire to Roman rule. They were only outlived by the Ptolemaic Kingdom in Egypt by roughly 34 years....After the death of Alexander, Seleucus was nominated as the satrap of Babylon...Antigonus forced Seleucus to flee from Babylon, but, supported by Ptolemy, he was able to return... Seleucus' later conquests include Persia and Media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucus_I_Nicator

(well as Syria; India; Mesopotamia; Thrace; Macedonia and Judea)

Ptolemy king of the south

Ptolemy I Soter, was a half brother of Alexander the Great, King of Macedonia and served under him as a Macedonian General. He later acquired the title of King of Egypt...Ptolemy I Soter was regarded by the Macedonians as the son of Philip II.....Ptolemy I Soter I (Ancient Greek: Πτολεμαῖος Σωτήρ, Ptolemaĩos Sōtḗr, i.e. Ptolemy (pronounced /ˈtɒləmi/) the Savior), also known as Ptolemy Lagides,.....was a Macedonian general under Alexander the Great, who became ruler of Egypt....and founder of both the Ptolemaic Kingdom and the Ptolemaic Dynasty....he took the title of pharaoh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy_I_Soter

Ptolemy's daughter Berenice

6. And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king’s daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

Antiochus II Theos ...was a Greek king of the Hellenistic Seleucid Kingdom...He inherited a state of war with Egypt, the "Second Syrian War", which was fought along the coasts of Asia Minor, and the constant intrigues of petty despots and restless city-states in Asia Minor. Antiochus also made some attempt to get a footing in Thrace. During the war he was given the title Theos (Greek: Θεός, "God"), being such to the Milesians in slaying the tyrant Timarchus....

Antiochus made peace with Ptolemy II of Egypt, ending the Second Syrian War. Antiochus repudiated his wife Laodice I and exiled her to Ephesus.

To seal the treaty,he married Ptolemy's daughter Berenice and received an enormous dowry....During her stay in Ephesus, Laodice I continued numerous intrigues to become queen again...Antiochus had left Berenice and their infant son Antiochus, in Antioch to live again with Laodice I in Asia Minor. Laodice I took the occasion to poison Antiochus while her partisans at Antioch murdered Berenice and their infant son.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_II_Theos

CONT....
moving forward in time....

zone · Nov 20, 2016

CONT....

Ptolemy III Euergetes

7. But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:

Berenice's brother, Ptolemy III Euergetes succeeded their father and set about to avenge his sister's murder by invading Syria and having Laodice killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berenice_(Seleucid_queen)

8. And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north.

9. So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land.

he (Ptolemy III) returned back to Egypt, he distributed wheat and corn among the Egyptians to lessen the burden of famine on the population . These wheat and corn brought from Syria as booty . He also brought back some statues of the Egyptian deities which Cambyes took from Egypt few hundred years earlier . Then he used excessive force to put down the revolts of the Egyptians.

Ptolemy III Euergetes, The Third King of Egypt's Ptolemaic Dynasty

Antiochus Hierax

10. But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress.

Antiochus Hierax (Greek: Ἀντίoχoς Ἱέραξ, transl. “Hawk”)...so called from his grasping and ambitious character, was the younger son of Antiochus II and Laodice I and separatist leader in the Hellenistic Seleucid kingdom, who ruled as king of Syria during his brother's reign......On the death of his father....Antiochus waged war on his brother Seleucus II Callinicus, in order to seize Anatolia for himself as an independent kingdom. He defeated his brother at the Battle of Ancyra..

Once more Antiochus attacked the Ptolemaic province of Coele Syria and Phoenicia, and....he seems to have had possession of it before the Aetolian, Scopas, recovered it for Ptolemy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_Hierax

CONT....

zone · Nov 20, 2016

CONT....

11. And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.

Antiochus III....Syrian king of the Seleucid dynasty, Alexander the Great's successors in Asia.....When his older brother, Seleucus III, was assassinated in Phrygia.....Antiochus succeeded him as king at the age of 18.

.....Molon and Alexander, the satraps of Media and Persia, revolted.....Achaeus sought power and occupied Antioch, but the populace deserted him. Antiochus foolishly overlooked the brief insurrection and instead prepared to attack Egypt. His forces easily gained coastal Phoenicia, Tyre, and Ptolemais, but Antiochus faltered at the fortress of Dora in northern Palestine. This gave Egypt a chance to reorganize its army, and.... Antiochus was defeated in Gaza by Ptolemy IV Philopater.

Antiochus III facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about Antiochus III

12. And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it.

ANTIOCHUS III. THE GREAT - JewishEncyclopedia.com

13. For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

16. But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

Antiochus III succeeds by defeating of Ptolemy V Epiphanes and Scopas.
with much of the war being fought in Judea, Antiochus army consumes most of Judeas wealth.

Antiochus III, called The Great...king of Syria....the son of Seleucus II and brother of Seleucus III...he warred successfully against the Egyptian king Ptolemy V and....obtained possession of all of Palestine and Lebanon.

https://www.geni.com/people/Antiochus-III-Megas-king-of-the-Seleucid-Empire/6000000007376492703

Antiochus intends to take all of Egypt, but tries intrigue and subversion by giving his daughter.

17. He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

Antiochus III indicated his willingness to make peace with Ptolemy V and to have his daughter Cleopatra I marry Ptolemy V. ....Later on, Egypt's Ptolemaic kings were to argue that Cleopatra I had received Coele-Syria as her dowry and, therefore, this territory again belonged to Egypt. It is not clear if this was the case. However, in practice, Coele-Syria remained a Seleucid possession...In Alexandria, Cleopatra I was called the Syrian.....As part of the Ptolemaic cult she was honoured with her husband as Theoi Epiphaneis. In line with ancient Egyptian tradition, she was also named adelphe (= sister) of Ptolemy V.

A synod of priests held at Memphis.....transferred all honours that Ptolemy V had received...(written on the Rosetta stone) to his wife.

Cleopatra I was appointed vizier and upon her husband's death....she ruled on behalf of her young son, Ptolemy VI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_III_the_Great

CONT....

zone · Nov 20, 2016

CONT...

18. After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.

Antiochus then moved to Asia Minor, by land and by sea, to secure the coast towns which belonged to the remnants of Ptolemaic overseas dominions and the independent Greek cities. This enterprise earned him the antagonism of the Roman Republic, since Smyrna and Lampsacus appealed to the republic of the west, and the tension grew after Antiochus had in 196 BC established a footing in Thrace. The evacuation of Greece by the Romans gave Antiochus his opportunity, and he now had the fugitive Hannibal at his court to urge him on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_III_the_Great

19. Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.

Antiochus invaded Greece with a 10,000 man army, and was elected the commander in chief of the Aetolian League....however, the Romans under Manius Acilius Glabrio routed him at Thermopylae, forcing him to withdraw to Asia Minor. The Romans followed up their success by invading Anatolia, and the decisive victory of Scipio Asiaticus at Magnesia ad Sipylum...following the defeat of Hannibal at sea off Side, delivered Asia Minor into their hands.

...Antiochus III attempted to pillage a temple of the god Ba’al in Elam, proving his previous actions in Ecbatana were not at all atypical. The underlying motive was again undoubtedly pecuniary. Following the treaty of Apamea, Antiochus III badly needed coin and bullion to pay the Roman indemnity. He had already paid two down payments together totaling 3000 silver talents, but now was required to produce 1000 silver talents per year for the next twelve years.

The war with Rome had no doubt been expensive, and his tactical defeats in Greece and Asia Minor meant that he would have had little booty to offset his costs.

Native Temples and Predatory Rule in the Seleucid Empire (Working Paper) | Michael Taylor - Academia.edu

...the Seleucid king abandoned all the country north of the Taurus, which the Roman Republic distributed amongst its local allies. As a consequence of this blow to the Seleucid power, the outlying provinces of the empire, recovered by Antiochus, reasserted their independence. Antiochus mounted a fresh eastern expedition in Luristan, where he died while pillaging a temple of Bel at Elymaïs, Persia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_III_the_Great

CONT....

zone · Nov 20, 2016

CONT...

Seleucus IV Philopator

20. Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

Antiochus died....on another expedition to the east, where he sought to extract money to pay the indemnity.....The reign of his son and successor Seleucus IV Philopator..... largely spent in attempts to pay the large indemnity, and Seleucus was ultimately assassinated by his minister Heliodorus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_Empire

zone · Nov 20, 2016

SO FAR SO GOOD?
history bears all that out in great detail.
notice God doesn't mention names...hmmm

have to go through

Antiochus Epiphanes - 11:21-32

and The Maccabees - 11:32-35

to get to HEROD

bear with me please.

zone · Nov 20, 2016

insert projection...here's where it is headed (Daniel 11):

Herod the Great - 11:36-39,

Caesar Augustus - 11:40-43

Herod the Great - 11:44-45

zone · Nov 20, 2016

zone said:

actually, it's too hard to go through all that again this morning.
if you're still interested and following, you can check stuff for yourself.

going to fast forward to Herod and Casear.

so far we can see God deals with huge issues, kings and wars etc...in just a FEW VERSES.
same is true for Herod and Caesar.

back in minute....

zone · Nov 20, 2016

zone said:

[MACCABEES…35"Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.]

HEROD(S)

Daniel 11
36"Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.

angry, indignation, rage
From za'am; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin) -- angry, indignation, rage.

see HEBREW za'am
Strong's Hebrew: 2195. זָ֫עַם (zaam) -- indignation
37"He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.…

Herod lived through, was involved in the sins of Israel Daniel was prophesying against, and for which Jesus foretold the destruction of the city.

King Herod was a schemer who took advantage of Roman political unrest to claw his way to the top. During a civil war in the Empire, Herod won the favor of Octavian, who later became the Roman emperor Augustus Caesar. Once he was king, Herod launched an ambitious building program, both in Jerusalem and the spectacular port city of Caesarea, named after the emperor. He restored the magnificent Jerusalem temple, which was later destroyed by the Romans following a rebellion in A.D. 70.

Herod the Great - Ruthless King of the Jews

Meet King Herod, Enemy of Jesus Christ
King Herod the Great - Ruthless Ruler of the Jews

he was succeeded by other HERODS:

Herod Archelaus,
Herod Antipas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

CONT

what has been fulfilled?

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