"Torah Observers" don't follow the clean meat laws

[Grace777x70]

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation.

Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it in Jesus our Lord. Now we live by Him in and through us.

I believe that the Law is a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of "knowing good" is on the same tree as in the "knowing of evil". This is the Law.

The Law was brought into the hearts of all people because of Adam's sin. Even those that knew not the Law of Moses - still had the Law in them. The mystery of iniquity is in the blood of all people born ( except for our Lord of course )

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

We were not made to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - from the law - that is for God alone - but we are to eat from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself.

 

[MacBestus]

G7, i wonder if you realize you are giving the adversaries argument from Eden.

You may be right, ha Satan may br influencing this debate. Using a line that has worked over and over.

"Eat what you want. You shall not surely die."

 

[FreeNChrist]

yes, we live as He lived... but every person will decide which of Jesus particular actions are to be imitated... and which point to a direction

for example, I don't attempt to go to a synagogue in Nazareth.

ST. MARK 7:18 whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile them,
What comes out of a person is what defiles them.

but that seems like a direction to me... I try to live by that

Indeed how Jesus lived is how we, as Christians, live. And how Jesus lived was in complete dependence upon God the Father, doing nothing of His own initiative. Repeatedly He explained the source of what He did.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself; ...the Father shows the Son all things that He Himself is doing" (John 5:19,20).

"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge..." (John 5:30).

"I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself has given Me...what to say, and what to speak" (John 12:49).

"The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (John 14:10).

As a man Jesus was totally dependent upon God the Father and receptive to the activity that His indwelling Father desired to express through Him. In the same way that He lived in dependence upon God the Father, we now live in total dependency upon Jesus who indwells us.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

 

[MacBestus]

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation.

Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it in Jesus our Lord. Now we live by Him in and through us.

I believe that the Law is a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of "knowing good" is on the same tree as in the "knowing of evil". This is the Law.

The Law was brought into the hearts of all people because of Adam's sin. Even those that knew not the Law of Moses - still had the Law in them. The mystery of iniquity is in the blood of all people born ( except for our Lord of course )

Romans 2:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

We were not made to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - from the law - that is for God alone - but we are to eat from the tree of Life which is Christ Himself.

Do you see the Torah as eliminated. Completely fulfilled. Partially fulfilled. Or obsolete?

 

[Grace777x70]

The only "laws" that real Christians have today because we are "dead to the Law of Moses" are these below.

1) the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. - Romans 8:2

2) the law of love - Romans 13:8, 10 : Gal 5:14

3) the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith Gal. 3:12 ) - Romans 3:27 and Gal. 3:11, 23

4) the law of liberty in Christ Jesus - James 1:25; 2:12

5) the law of Christ - Himself - 1 Cor. 9:21 ; Gal. 6:2


We live by the law of the spirit of life in Christ now which manifests itself in the law of love!..this transcends all laws.

To some "rule-keepers" - they see this living by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus as being dubious and un-trust worthy. ( They would never come out and say this - but it seems this is in their minds )

But herein lies the rub.....if there are no rules..what is to stop us from going crazy and sinning all we want?....when someone preaches the true gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation - that is what people are hearing.....

Can we really trust the Holy Spirit in us???...can we really trust the life of Christ in us to live a life totally dependent on Christ alone in is?....if we cannot trust this law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus , then we will say we need rules to keep us in check.

This leads people back to the law of Moses for life and living and it is deserting Christ as Paul says in Galatians 1:6.

This is not the true Christian life. It is a flesh trip that substitutes the life of Christ in us for outward behavior to satisfy a need that only Christ Himself can fulfill in us.

 

[MacBestus]

it looks to me like the passage is about tithing.

you may turn your tithe into silver and
'go to the place which יהוה your Elohim chooses.'



' We are to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year for festivals. If we cannot make it. Once every three years will do.'

I haven't read this...
which part of Torah are you looking at?

Good morning Dan.

When we read Scripture we must remember the words of

Isaiah 28.:*9**Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

*10**For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

We are to remember his unchanging nature. We are look at Torah as a whole. A Life style. His ways. He does not contradict himself. And he expects us to have reason, not be automatons.

All parts of Torah teach all other parts. Just as all Torah teaches Messiah and Messiah taught Torah.

That being said... Giving to YHWH os divided into two parts. Sacrifice and Tithe. They are often mentioned together as separate yet joined concept. As we might today say 'bread and butter' or 'salt and pepper' distinct on their own yet connected as a whole concept together as well.

Such as Malachi 3:8**Will a man rob Elohim? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Among other verses. The festivals which YHWH gave us are also a sort of offering. Much like tithes which are commanded yet bless us. Or sacrifices which are voluntary yet bless us. Our commanded feasts. Are also a blessing to us and part of this exchange between us and our Creator. They all follow the same framework.

If we can only make it once every three years for our Tithe, then the same holds true for our other physical exchanges. It would not make sense any other way.

 

[MacBestus]

The only "laws" that real Christians have today because we are "dead to the Law of Moses" are these below.

1) the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. - Romans 8:2

2) the law of love - Romans 13:8, 10 : Gal 5:14

3) the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith Gal. 3:12 ) - Romans 3:27 and Gal. 3:11, 23

4) the law of liberty in Christ Jesus - James 1:25; 2:12

5) the law of Christ - Himself - 1 Cor. 9:21 ; Gal. 6:2


We live by the law of the spirit of life in Christ now which manifests itself in the law of love!..this transcends all laws.

To some "rule-keepers" - they see this living by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus as being dubious and un-trust worthy. ( They would never come out and say this - but it seems this is in their minds )

But herein lies the rub.....if there are no rules..what is to stop us from going crazy and sinning all we want?....when someone preaches the true gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation - that is what people are hearing.....

Can we really trust the Holy Spirit in us???...can we really trust the life of Christ in us to live a life totally dependent on Christ alone in is?....if we cannot trust this law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus , then we will say we need rules to keep us in check.

This leads people back to the law of Moses for life and living and it is deserting Christ as Paul says in Galatians 1:6.

This is not the true Christian life. It is a flesh trip that substitutes the life of Christ in us for outward behavior to satisfy a need that only Christ Himself can fulfill in us.

This explains much about why you are on the path that you are on. How do you get around Yahshua saying the law was in place until fully fulfilled (which it has not been.) Do you think Paul overrules Messiah?

 

[Grace777x70]

I think the Law has done it's job for the Christian and brought us to Christ. Thank you Jesus!

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

 

[MacBestus]

I think the Law has done it's job for the Christian and brought us to Christ. Thank you Jesus!

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

The law is still leading folks to messiah. I personally know people who were athiest/agnostic that are on fire for Messiah and were attracted to fellowship by Torah Keeping,or curiosity in it.

But you didnt really answer the question. Do you think YahShua was wrong? (When he said the law stands until completely fulfilled)

 

[Grace777x70]

The law is still in effect for the unrighteous. We in Christ are the righteous. The law is not for the righteous.

1 Timothy 1:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers


The 10 commandments were called the ministry of condemnation and of death by Paul. We can trust the life of Christ in us to live godly in this world.

The grace of God "teaches" now in the New Covenant how to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly, righteous and godly in this present age - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12

The 10 commandments are called the "letter that kills" and the "ministry of death" - The New Covenant is called the "ministry of the Spirit" that brings Life.

The 10 commandments were called "the ministry of condemnation" - the New Covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness." This is Christ's righteousness given to us that believe.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

The law of Moses including the 10 commandments are like an x-ray machine - they show up things that are wrong but the x-ray machine has no power to "fix it".

The law of Moses just reveals what is wrong and the purpose is to lead us to Christ Himself for life and living, righteousness and salvation.

It's the same here for Christ Himself and His life in our new hearts is the only thing that can "fix us" with a transformed live.

The "just shall live by faith" - the law of Moses is NOT of faith.

Having these long discussions on the law of Moses is unprofitable and enough has been said for those young in the Lord to rely on the gospel of the grace of Christ for life and living, righteousness and salvation.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Preach and teach the grace of God as it is the only truth that teaches us how to deny ungodliness and to live righteously in this world. Titus 2:11-12

We can trust the life of the Lord which is in us for living now. We can trust the Holy Spirit inside of us. He will be faithful to us.

 

[MacBestus]

The law is still in effect for the unrighteous. We in Christ are the righteous. The law is not for the righteous.

1 Timothy 1:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers


The 10 commandments were called the ministry of condemnation and of death by Paul. We can trust the life of Christ in us to live godly in this world.

The grace of God "teaches" now in the New Covenant how to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly, righteous and godly in this present age - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12

The 10 commandments are called the "letter that kills" and the "ministry of death" - The New Covenant is called the "ministry of the Spirit" that brings Life.

The 10 commandments were called "the ministry of condemnation" - the New Covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness." This is Christ's righteousness given to us that believe.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

The law of Moses including the 10 commandments are like an x-ray machine - they show up things that are wrong but the x-ray machine has no power to "fix it".

The law of Moses just reveals what is wrong and the purpose is to lead us to Christ Himself for life and living, righteousness and salvation.

It's the same here for Christ Himself and His life in our new hearts is the only thing that can "fix us" with a transformed live.

The "just shall live by faith" - the law of Moses is NOT of faith.

Having these long discussions on the law of Moses is unprofitable and enough has been said for those young in the Lord to rely on the gospel of the grace of Christ for life and living, righteousness and salvation.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Preach and teach the grace of God as it is the only truth that teaches us how to deny ungodliness and to live righteously in this world. Titus 2:11-12

We can trust the life of the Lord which is in us for living now. We can trust the Holy Spirit inside of us. He will be faithful to us.

Brother, You said :

"The law is still in effect for the unrighteous. We in Christ are the righteous. The law is not for the righteous.

1 Timothy 1:8-9 (NASB)*
8*But we know that the Law is good,*if one uses it lawfully,*

9*realizing the fact that*law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers*"

Do you not see Eden repeated here?

Respectfully and with love I offer this in Reply.

Romans 3:10**As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

*11**There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after Elohim.

Mark 10;18**And Yahushua said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is,*יהוה.

*19**Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Luke 18:19**And Yahushua said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is,*יהוה.

*20**Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.


So Yahshua AND Paul identify us as UNRIGHTEOUS. Messiah says no man is righteous.

There is another biblical Entity that says what you say though it is in Genesis 3:5 5**For Elohim doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be like Elohim, knowing good and evil.

Now reread the verses you quoted.

1 Timothy 1:8-9 (NASB)*
8*But we know that the Law is good,*if one uses it lawfully,*

9*realizing the fact that*law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers*"

The law is for the lawless. The Torahless. Those who reject the keeping of Torah

 

[Blik]

The law is still in effect for the unrighteous. We in Christ are the righteous. The law is not for the righteous.

1 Timothy 1:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers


The 10 commandments were called the ministry of condemnation and of death by Paul. We can trust the life of Christ in us to live godly in this world.

The grace of God "teaches" now in the New Covenant how to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly, righteous and godly in this present age - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12

The 10 commandments are called the "letter that kills" and the "ministry of death" - The New Covenant is called the "ministry of the Spirit" that brings Life.

The 10 commandments were called "the ministry of condemnation" - the New Covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness." This is Christ's righteousness given to us that believe.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

The law of Moses including the 10 commandments are like an x-ray machine - they show up things that are wrong but the x-ray machine has no power to "fix it".

The law of Moses just reveals what is wrong and the purpose is to lead us to Christ Himself for life and living, righteousness and salvation.

It's the same here for Christ Himself and His life in our new hearts is the only thing that can "fix us" with a transformed live.

The "just shall live by faith" - the law of Moses is NOT of faith.

Having these long discussions on the law of Moses is unprofitable and enough has been said for those young in the Lord to rely on the gospel of the grace of Christ for life and living, righteousness and salvation.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Preach and teach the grace of God as it is the only truth that teaches us how to deny ungodliness and to live righteously in this world. Titus 2:11-12

We can trust the life of the Lord which is in us for living now. We can trust the Holy Spirit inside of us. He will be faithful to us.

Paul tried so to teach us the principles of the Lord, and when gentiles took over they mixed it up so based on their training of life they couldn't shake. They were trained in philosophy, superstition, myths, idolatry. When the Hebrews headed the Christian church, even with how often they were mixed up they had a base of scripture training instead. So we have people just like early gentiles who read the NT without any idea of the OT it is based on.

Just as you are doing, they say God doesn't matter, Christ is new. They say there is a new covenant and it is for the gentiles. They have no idea of what the NT is referring to, with no knowledge of the principles laid down by Christ who is God and told to us in the OT.

Scripture tells us the new covenant was given to Israel, not the gentiles. Got made no covenant with gentiles since the one at Noah's time. We are encouraged to be adopted into Israel. We need to be very grateful that Peter and Paul opened the way for our adoption, to be included in the gospel.

Because it is and always has been only God's grace that gives us salvation, not something we achieve on our own, they say don't listen to what God has to say about how we are to live. They say we are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they haven't a clue about how the Holy Spirit operated on Mt Sinai or what that has to do with us today. For example, they know flames were a factor on MT Sinai and flames were a factor at Pentecost, but no idea of how they work together.

To say God's way is not for us is sinful. We are to listen. To say that when scripture mentions faith it has a meaning completely apart from what we do is sinful. It is not God's way.

Tit 2:11-12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (12( teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.
























Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[Grace777x70]

Mosaic Law-keepers make the exact same mistake as the Jews did in Paul's day. They are depending on "their law-keeping" for righteousness and thus do not know about the righteousness of God in Christ.

Romans 10:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

Christ is our righteousness and as long as people rely on the law of Moses for life and living - there is a veil over their minds to see Christ.

I can give you guys what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want to.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

 

[Grandpa]

The law is for the lawless. The Torahless. Those who reject the keeping of Torah

Christians don't reject the keeping of the Law. Just working at it in our own understanding and strength is rejected after we come to Christ.

The law is for everyone to show them the futility of their own carnal work at a spiritual law.

Hebrews 7:15-19
[FONT=&quot]15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Galatians 3:23-25
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

Paul tried so to teach us the principles of the Lord, and when gentiles took over they mixed it up so based on their training of life they couldn't shake. They were trained in philosophy, superstition, myths, idolatry. When the Hebrews headed the Christian church, even with how often they were mixed up they had a base of scripture training instead. So we have people just like early gentiles who read the NT without any idea of the OT it is based on.

Just as you are doing, they say God doesn't matter, Christ is new. They say there is a new covenant and it is for the gentiles. They have no idea of what the NT is referring to, with no knowledge of the principles laid down by Christ who is God and told to us in the OT.

Scripture tells us the new covenant was given to Israel, not the gentiles. Got made no covenant with gentiles since the one at Noah's time. We are encouraged to be adopted into Israel. We need to be very grateful that Peter and Paul opened the way for our adoption, to be included in the gospel.

Because it is and always has been only God's grace that gives us salvation, not something we achieve on our own, they say don't listen to what God has to say about how we are to live. They say we are guided by the Holy Spirit, but they haven't a clue about how the Holy Spirit operated on Mt Sinai or what that has to do with us today. For example, they know flames were a factor on MT Sinai and flames were a factor at Pentecost, but no idea of how they work together.

To say God's way is not for us is sinful. We are to listen. To say that when scripture mentions faith it has a meaning completely apart from what we do is sinful. It is not God's way.

Tit 2:11-12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (12( teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.

Acts 15:5-10
[FONT=&quot]5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/FONT]

 

[Dan_473]

LOL....some pun intended no doubt..

yeah, originally I wrote


'I didn't realize there were that many
'untils' until
you pointed them out'

but I thought it might be confusing, or people might think I was joking.

 

[Grace777x70]

Acts 15:5-10
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The above in brown is exactly what the Judaizers of today are attempting to do. These are the extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots people of which not all Roots people are of the same belief as these sect ones are.

Keeping the law of Moses does not purify one's heart. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ does. The righteous shall live by faith - faith in Christ alone.

We can trust the Holy Spirit will reveal Christ to those reading this thread and not to be deceived by their attempts to get us Christians to desert our Lord for our own "keeping of the law of Moses".

We are not going to desert Him who is our life. Col. 3:3

 

[FreeNChrist]

You are getting the way God created our world and the additions that the rabbis made all mixed up.

Christ is God, and God would not tell us one thing today and tomorrow change it. God is eternal.

There were no rabbis until the people of Judah were sent to Babylon and the temple destroyed. The synagogues and rabbis were created then, without the Lord telling them to do this. The rabbis started interpreting scripture, adding to it in their interpretations. Pharisees said these interpretations were the same as scripture, Christ said they were not.

The rites the Lord gave the Hebrews was not the law although people in bible times called it law.

It is up to us to learn all this and keep this straight. God is our God, not an idea to be disobeyed. God told us what is law. Law is always part of the basic law of love like the ten commandments are.

Sorry, but that is just nonsense. You has been shown the biblical truth, you ignore it at your own peril.

 

[Dan_473]

Indeed how Jesus lived is how we, as Christians, live. And how Jesus lived was in complete dependence upon God the Father, doing nothing of His own initiative. Repeatedly He explained the source of what He did.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself; ...the Father shows the Son all things that He Himself is doing" (John 5:19,20).

"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge..." (John 5:30).

"I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself has given Me...what to say, and what to speak" (John 12:49).

"The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works" (John 14:10).

As a man Jesus was totally dependent upon God the Father and receptive to the activity that His indwelling Father desired to express through Him. In the same way that He lived in dependence upon God the Father, we now live in total dependency upon Jesus who indwells us.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

yes,
GALATIANS 5:16 But I say,
walk by the Spirit,
and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

how Jesus lived is he walked by the Spirit




I'm pondering this idea, that as humans we think intuitively that by not gratifying the desires of the flesh, we will then be walking by the spirit... I'm thinking that idea is wrong... it has to start with God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

yes,
GALATIANS 5:16 But I say,
walk by the Spirit,
and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

how Jesus lived is he walked by the Spirit

I'm pondering this idea, that as humans we think intuitively that by not gratifying the desires of the flesh, we will then be walking by the spirit... I'm thinking that idea is wrong... it has to start with God.

LOL. You're right, it's not right. But that's what folks do, they reverse Gal. 5:16 making it say, "do not carry out the desires of the flesh, and then you will be walking by the Spirit". Thereby turning the truth into a lie.

You've received some good insight.