Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[phil36]

I am not speaking theology, or is this God working, or is this free will speaking, I am saying
we need to walk with Jesus from the heart.

It strikes me some people do not believe this, to the extent, they are fearful of what is within.

I have lived with people with defended hearts, and equated this with being human and not
shutting Jesus out, so simply freezing at a particular point in life.

I have walked into families where an important member has died, yet the relationships appear
to still be as if the person is still there. So having an open heart and letting hurts and incidents
move us on, is not a religious issue or observation, it is a life issue, how we work as people.

Jesus is our deepest friend and should affect us to our core, is our foundation to who we are
in Christ. This is His amazing Grace, His gift of love.

All I am called to do, is to say Jesus as the vine, is our life blood, yet it sounds like this is not
everyones cry. So among the religious language and ideas, I call out, how you let Gods word
dwell within you matters, it defines what you will become. Believe and have faith and trust in
His leading.

Pelagianism would be people can be moral outside of communion with God, which I would never
accept. I could theorise, but it does not work.

But suggesting this makes me wonder why an open heart is something you do not like?

I am not against an open heart towards God and His truth..I am not sure how you understand it as you never quite explain, nor use scripture to show how you see this as truthful!.

No one has suggested that we do not walk with Jesus from the heart..why do you flip the conversation? we were discussing how one gets that 'heart' in the first place? (Your above post has flipped the conversation rather than answering).

 

[gb9]

I am not against an open heart towards God and His truth..I am not sure how you understand it as you never quite explain, nor use scripture to show how you see this as truthful!.

No one has suggested that we do not walk with Jesus from the heart..why do you flip the conversation? we were discussing how one gets that 'heart' in the first place? (Your above post has flipped the conversation rather than answering).

as I told you a while back, peterjens does not answer questions, he just lectures us on how righteous he his, and how we should be like him.

folks with a faulty theology do want a q and a conversation, because their system would quickly get picked apart.

 

[PeterJens]

I am not against an open heart towards God and His truth..I am not sure how you understand it as you never quite explain, nor use scripture to show how you see this as truthful!.

No one has suggested that we do not walk with Jesus from the heart..why do you flip the conversation? we were discussing how one gets that 'heart' in the first place? (Your above post has flipped the conversation rather than answering).

We all are born with hearts. We do not get "hearts".
We are born again through faith in Christ. I did not realise this was an issue for you.

And speaking from the heart appears impossible for some, so yes that is a problem.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
Matt 18:35

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

This flow from the heart is both a gift and a choice.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Acts 2:37

I was surprised how many do not speak from the heart or recognise Jesus changes
us fundamentally within. I am constantly told I am not being honest, which is odd
because I am just testifying what I know and believe.

And I am sharing about what is important to me. I did not realise you define what
I mention, lol.

You sound like you do not believe I am saved or you agree with what I am expressing.
Why is that?

 

[phil36]

We all are born with hearts. We do not get "hearts".
We are born again through faith in Christ. I did not realise this was an issue for you.

And speaking from the heart appears impossible for some, so yes that is a problem.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
Matt 18:35

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

This flow from the heart is both a gift and a choice.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Acts 2:37

I was surprised how many do not speak from the heart or recognise Jesus changes
us fundamentally within. I am constantly told I am not being honest, which is odd
because I am just testifying what I know and believe.

And I am sharing about what is important to me. I did not realise you define what
I mention, lol.

You sound like you do not believe I am saved or you agree with what I am expressing.
Why is that?

Hi Peter,

You miss the point. Yes we all have 'hearts' but our nature is sinful from the beginning, that's why our 'hearts have to be renewed (John 3:1-12; Titus 3:5).

Let's stick to the topic Peter, rather than going on a tangent so you don't have to answer. What we have been discussing is 'How one get's a good heart'. You seem to think that man has a good heart before the Holy Spirit renews it?

Here is the scripture you quote:

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Acts 2:37

How do you understand this in light of what the whole counsel of God says? You don't have to go far just read the verses I have posted above. I'll post below for you:

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Clearly scripture shows that mans heart is desperately evil and not 'open' as you claim (after all it is just a claim as you provide no scriptural evidence).

The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. (Genesis 6:5; cf, Genesis 8:21)

When we understand this:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


We Understand the scripture you quote:

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
Matt 18:35

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

In our sinful state we will never have a heart that will love God with all our might and soul, that's humanities problem. Read again what Paul's says in the Ephesians quote above. You say that the 'flow' from the heart is a gift, that is only true if you have the gift of 'Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone.'

So to got back to your first statement:

We all are born with hearts. We do not get "hearts".

No one is saying that humans do not have a 'heart' (whatever you mean by that) or because they have not got a heart they get a transplant. But what the bible says, is that we are RENEWED, that is a renewed heart.

This next statement makes no sense:

And speaking from the heart appears impossible for some, so yes that is a problem.

I thought you agreed that everyone has a heart? so who are ' some [people]' ? Are you referring to non believers or are you referring to believers?

 

[PeterJens]

.
What we have been discussing is 'How one get's a good heart'. You seem to think that man has a good heart before the Holy Spirit renews it?

As believers in Christ we are born again, we are born from on high.
Our hearts are what is the core of who we are.

We have a heart that is lost, empty, without God. It leads us to sin, it is not
good, it self justifies and denies its need of the Lord, so is by definition evil.

We do not understand how we become conscious, so why should we understand
how we are born from on high. It is a gift of God, we are called, chosen, elected.

Now our hearts are renewed in faith in Christ, so amen.

Now it appears you are not aware of a dislocation that happens for many people.
How they appear to behave and feel is all invented to appear one way when within
they are feeling and behaving very differently.

Some get so lost, that they can even come to faith, but it does not touch who they
are, it is a series of events that happen because it seems the next thing to do, but
inside other things are going on.

Imagine life is on two levels. How you react inside and what you show on the outside.
The further apart they are the more disfunctional one is.

Jesus calls us to be the same on the inside and the outside.
People who can do this speak from the heart, those who cannot speak from what they
think is acceptable.

Do you understand this spiritual reality? The pharisees did everything for show, nothing
was real within, only evil desires, greed and self indulgence.

 

[zone]

As believers in Christ we are born again, we are born from on high.
Our hearts are what is the core of who we are.

We have a heart that is lost, empty, without God. It leads us to sin, it is not
good, it self justifies and denies its need of the Lord, so is by definition evil.

We do not understand how we become conscious, so why should we understand
how we are born from on high. It is a gift of God, we are called, chosen, elected.

Now our hearts are renewed in faith in Christ, so amen.

Now it appears you are not aware of a dislocation that happens for many people.
How they appear to behave and feel is all invented to appear one way when within
they are feeling and behaving very differently.

Some get so lost, that they can even come to faith, but it does not touch who they
are, it is a series of events that happen because it seems the next thing to do, but
inside other things are going on.

Imagine life is on two levels. How you react inside and what you show on the outside.
The further apart they are the more disfunctional one is.

Jesus calls us to be the same on the inside and the outside.
People who can do this speak from the heart, those who cannot speak from what they
think is acceptable.

Do you understand this spiritual reality? The pharisees did everything for show, nothing
was real within, only evil desires, greed and self indulgence.

do you believe God grants sinners grace as they work out their salvation?
iow, can believers sin (penitent believers) and be delivered from that sin?

 

[phil36]

As believers in Christ we are born again, we are born from on high.
Our hearts are what is the core of who we are.

We have a heart that is lost, empty, without God. It leads us to sin, it is not
good, it self justifies and denies its need of the Lord, so is by definition evil.

We do not understand how we become conscious, so why should we understand
how we are born from on high. It is a gift of God, we are called, chosen, elected.

Now our hearts are renewed in faith in Christ, so amen.

Now it appears you are not aware of a dislocation that happens for many people.
How they appear to behave and feel is all invented to appear one way when within
they are feeling and behaving very differently.

Some get so lost, that they can even come to faith, but it does not touch who they
are, it is a series of events that happen because it seems the next thing to do, but
inside other things are going on.

Imagine life is on two levels. How you react inside and what you show on the outside.
The further apart they are the more disfunctional one is.

Jesus calls us to be the same on the inside and the outside.
People who can do this speak from the heart, those who cannot speak from what they
think is acceptable.

Do you understand this spiritual reality? The pharisees did everything for show, nothing
was real within, only evil desires, greed and self indulgence.

Hi Peter,

You are still skirting around the issue an using language as a camouflage. So to get to the 'heart' of the issue (pardon the pun).

What do you mean by 'Heart'

 

[PeterJens]

do you believe God grants sinners grace as they work out their salvation?
iow, can believers sin (penitent believers) and be delivered from that sin?

Faith works righteousness in the believer, so Gods grace is to not count the sin against them.
If the sin is not resolved it destroys the faith and they fall away.

The test is when believers are confronted with their failure, will they rebel and stay in a broken
condition, to repent, confess and accept healing from Christ.

David and Bathsheba. David has sinned, but tried to hide, but when confronted, repented of
his behaviour. Peter denied Christ yet his faith stayed strong.

The Lord appears to be declaring our sanctification is the walk of purification, but through trials
we have a real choice, to walk or to walk away. We are in one sense always walking deeper,
and capable of getting much wrong, but the Lord takes us on.

So it is the relationship which is salvation, communion, but it can be tested, and stretched.
Marriages are no different, where explosions and miss-understanding happens, but the
relationship continues, sometimes through tears and hard times, sometimes through joy and
good times. We are a changing picture moving towards Christ, where we are maturing to His
image.

 

[FranC]

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Are We Justified by Faith and Works?​

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By David J. Stewart​

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"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." —James 2:24​

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No! Many people misunderstand the words of James the Apostle because they don't know their Bible well. I don't think I've received even one letter of debate from a Catholic who didn't bring up the words of James, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). James goes on to say in verse 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." At first glance, it sure does seem like the Bible is requiring works for salvation; BUT, as you will see, nothing could be further from the TRUTH!
Carefully notice James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the ROOT of Abraham's faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham's faith. We read in Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This occurred in Genesis 15:6, which is when Abraham was born again. Paul said in Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works. Romans 4:5 declares, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Yet, James declares in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown at least old enough to speak clearly to his father (Genesis 22:7). James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person's life to show it. BUT, James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved--they aren't! Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."
Also, notice carefully James' words, "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). With God we are justified by FAITH; BUT with men we are justified by WORKS. The reason is simply because mankind cannot see out heart; but God can. We read in 1st Samuel 16:7, "...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." James said, "shew me" your faith and I'll "shew you" my faith. Every believer possessing the Holy Spirit of God should be a new creature in the Lord, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." This is what James was looking for.
So don't let any Catholic fool you into believing that you must have good works to go to Heaven, you don't. Looking at the Old Testament by itself, I would never have any reason to think that Lot was a Christian. Yet, we read in 2nd Peter 2:6-7, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked." Did you read that ... "just Lot"? James was simply teaching that there should be some good works in a Christian's life to back up his testimony. However, this doesn't mean conclusively that a professed Christian without any good works is not saved. We certainly have a right to question their salvation; BUT, we cannot say for certain because we cannot see their heart. King David killed an innocent man (Uriah) to hide an unwanted pregnancy from an affair with the man's wife (Bathsheba). Would you have thought David was a Christian at that moment? Of course not! But David was a Christian, who had sinned horribly.
The Book of James should be a challenge to every believer to "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). And the Book of Romans should be a challenge to every believer to be aggressive in winning lost souls to Christ, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..." Most importantly is that we NOT confuse the ROOT of our faith, with the FRUIT of our faith--because ADDING works to faith is a sure road to Hell.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." —Romans 4:5
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Kevan,
I had asked you to please post scripture for eternal security.
The above is what you posted.
If I want to read stuff from Google, that's where I would go - but I don't even do that.

Could you please tell me, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, where in the bible Jesus said that if we believe in Him, we have ETERNAL SECURITY, forever even if the belief stops.

I'd appreciate it.

Fran

 

[FranC]

You must first understand that the salvation God gives through grace is not just a renovation on an old building. God completely makes new the old sinful soul. God makes alive to Him the soul that was dead in trespass and sin. God does not just start us on a path that leads to salvation God takes us all the way to eternal life in Him.

Man is powerless to undo the curse of sin and the resulting death. God is fully able to save and to seal forever the souls that seeks Him to save them. Where sin did abound grace did much more abound unto eternal life.

For a Christian to fall back into sin is a great shame. Christ bore our shame upon Himself at the cross of Calvary. Even our shame is under the blood.

Lucifer knows he cannot drag your soul into eternal condemnation after you have received Christ. Lucifer knows that if he attacks a believer some will suffer loss of their testimony for Christ. Even when we are tempted and fail Christ is right there to pick us back up and brush away the hurt that we will be brought safely into the fold. This is what the Great Shepherd does for the flock.

We all do well to invest more effort in believing Gods word and less time in being critical of Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You're talking about sin.
I'm talking about abandonment.

Is there a difference between sinnng and
ABANDONING God??

If we sin, God picks us up and does all those things you speak of above.
If we abandon Him and no longer have FAITH in Him, are still saved since it's FAITH that saves us?

Fran

 

[FranC]

You've said this before.
They seem to have said this and they seem to have said that.
But you have no sound Scripture to back it up.
You are placing your beliefs on your feelings and not on God's word.

I don't believe I ever answered this. Here are some verses for you regarding both Jesus and the Apostles exhorting us to live a Godly life. If we're forever saved after initial belief, why would these verses even be necessary??

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

1 Peter 2:11English Standard Version (ESV) /

11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.


Romans 12:2 ESV /

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


1 Timothy 4:7 ESV /

Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;


2 Timothy 3:16 ESV /

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,


Ephesians 4:1 ESV /

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,


Romans 12:1 ESV /

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.


1 John 2:15-16 ESV /

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world.


Romans 16:17-20 ESV /

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

1 John 2:1-29 ESV /

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: ...

AND JESUS HIMSELF SAID:


Luke 6:46 ESV /

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?


Luke 6:40 ESV /

He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.

Luke 6:49New International Version (NIV)

49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”


Matthew 5:17-20New International Version (NIV)

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

THERE ARE PLENTY MORE.

If it was not important to persevere in our faith in Jesus, both He and the Apostles and Writers would not have made such an important point of it.

Fran

 

[FranC]

Book, chapter and verses in context (two witnesses) that equate to being in Christ's hands as doing works or THINGS for him......that is not supported by context.....and to be frank Fran.....the bolded above is exactly why false teaching is a prevalent as the rocks in my drive way.....

THE only thing it shows is POSSESSION......JUST LIKE I HAVE THIS PEN IN MY HANDS.......it is IN MY POSSESSION.....

decontroversal...

Using the concept that we are the hands and feet of God is my way of explaining how we do "works" for Him.
I don't consider them works, I just try to do what Jesus said to do, mostly in Mathew 5 and 25.

Fail constantly. This is not loss of salvation. This might be where all the misunderstanding is, from what I could gather.
I'm not here to tell anyone what to believe. Those here seem to be mature Christians and they could believe what they like. I worry for new Christians. I worry that this eternal salvation idea will just lead to an incorrect belief in what God would want of us/them.

I don't believe Jesus, God, the 2nd person, came down here to earth Just so we could "believe in Him." I think there's a far Greater reason: To be our propitiation for sin and to show us how to live a life God would be happy with.

One cannot believe that he could come to be saved and have faith in the Lord, and then continue his life as usual.
Jesus said to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. He NEVER said "just believe in Me and you'll be OK." I myself would just LOVE to see that verse! It's not there! It would end all the controversy.

And you speak of POSSESSION. I don't know what you mean by that.
Could you explain?

Sorry this is so late.
Fran

 

[FranC]

You guys can't agree on salvation because you aren't rightly dividing the word of truth. Salvation in the dispensation of Grace isn't contingent on our performance. Only in Israel's gospel did they have to continue in good works to be saved. In our dispensation, our justification and sanctification comes immediately after we believe and trust the truth. After that, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Sealed unto the day of redemption.

I love when people used James as their proof text to prove works salvation. The interesting thing about James is, that it's not written to us lol. Read the first verse in the book haha. James 1.1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

So when did you become part of the 12 Tribes of Israel? Are you a Hebrew? I hope not, because when you become a member of the body of Christ, you lose your identity and become a NEW creature. Neither Jew nor Gentile.

Works salvation people want to earn their own righteousness because they don't think Christ's cross work is good enough to save them. That's why they try to perfect their flesh after salvation. The bible has a verse for them. (actually it has many)

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

They love to try to perfect their flesh...

Hi RTP

You're putting forth an incorrect picture of what "works salvation" people believe.
I insist that the position of those like me, MUST be understood.

Forget about who's rightly dividing the word of God. I have more on this for you later on since I watched that tape you linked for me.

I'm not trying to gain my own righteousness. If this worked in the Old Covenant, why would we need the New Covenant?
Apparently trying to keep the Law ourselves DOES NOT WORK.

Galatians is saying that the Law cannot save us. Only FAITH can save us. Ephesians 2:8 WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH.

OK.. But what did Jesus mean when He said to be perfect? Did He really mean perfect? Did He mean that we should do our best? Did He mean to be like our Father in heaven, since HE made us in HIS image?

Or do you not believe Jesus?
Mathew 5:48 (it means to be holy, as our Father in heaven is holy. What does holy mean??)

Fran

 

[FranC]

The bible gives us an exact definition of what faith is. SO there has to be no subjective truth to the matter. It's objective because of the text tells us exactly what faith is. Lets read:

Hebrews 11.1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So you can have your own "personal" view of what faith is. Just as the bible has it's own interpretation of what faith is. I will takes Christ's interpretation of what faith is, over any mans and mainline tradition.

So lets read Rom 8.24. It has more to say on the matter of this hope, faith, evidence of things not seen.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Gal 3.11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I could go on and on and on with pages of how Paul's message is not Peter's message. Peter preached a different gospel than Paul. This is the beginning of understanding the bible correctly. Rightly dividing the word of truth.

RTP

Do you know what faith is?
What do you think I think it is? Seems like you know what I think and believe.

Do you know that the word "faith" implies MOVEMENT. If you have faith that an elevator will take you to the 5th floor, you will ENTER that elevator. Faith ALWAYS implies MOVEMENT.

You quote Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the substance of things hoped for. What do you think is hoped for? Can we say that Jesus is the EVIDENCE of things ot seen?

Then you go to Romans 8:24

This speaks to the hope for the future. Hope in a glorified body for us and glorified nature also.

Romans 8 is speaking to how we, and all of nature, have succumbed to the sin nature which has been instilled into everything from the fall of man in Genesis.

When we come to Jesus, we are made children of God and are no longer under the BONDAGE of SIN. Does this mean that we could sin? May it never be! Romans 6:1-2
Here's the difference:
Slaves MUST obey the Law (and cannot)
Friends WANT to obey the Law (and are helped by the Holy Spirit)

So what is HOPED FOR in Romans 8:24 is the release of the sin nature from both us and nature. It's speaking to a future time when all will be freed. The title of Romans 8 in my bible is: DELIVERANCE. Deliverance from he sin nature.

What do YOU think our hope is?
If we can SEE it, we do not need hope. We cannot see the new man and the new earth when all will be delivered.
Try reading Romans from 8:24-27

All that salvation brings is still in the future - what is coming is far better than anything we could imagine.

Fran

 

[FranC]

Peter's message didn't know anything about Paul's message. They have no relation. Paul says his message was only revealed to him by direct revelation from Christ. I have gone over the issue's in Acts 10, 13, and 18. All of them with various people over the years. Here is some of the issues addressed.
Acts 8:14-17 poses a real problem if you think the church, the Body of Christ, began with the appearance of the Holy Ghost outpouring at Pentecost. The problem disappears when a mid-Acts Pauline perspective is used which rightly divides Acts 8 from the present dispensation of grace.

Spirit ≠ Body

The main argument for the subject of the mystery, the Body of Christ, beginning at Pentecost is 1 Cor 12:13.

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” – 1 Cor 12:13
Spirit baptism identifies us as the one body. The argument goes that this Spirit baptism occurred at Pentecost; therefore, so did the start of the body. This remains the most common objection to Pauline right division.

The first problem is in turning two different baptisms into one. Whereas 1 Cor 12:13 is a baptism performed by the Spirit into the body of Christ, the baptism at Pentecost differed in that Christ did the baptizing, and that into the power of the Sprit (Matt 3:11).

The second problem is in thinking that wherever the Spirit is present he must be doing the same thing. We could call this the same-Spirit-same-ministry approach. This does not accurately depict the work of the Spirit throughout the Bible which changes depending on the dispensation. A failure to recognize that the same Spirit could have different ministries has fertilized the growth of charismatic Pentecostalism. This is not the subject of the present article.

The concern at the present is a third problem found in Acts 8:14-17 with the Pentecostal Spirit identifying the mystery Body.

To Be or Not to Be

In Acts 8 Philip the great evangelist preaches the word in Samaria and many believe and receive him with his signs and wonders. They were even water baptized (which gives false comfort to those who make that a matter of importance, Acts 8:12). However, it is not until many days later when Peter and John came from Jerusalem that any believing Samaritan received the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:14-16).
“For as yet he [the Holy Ghost] was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” – Acts 8:16

Instead of getting sidetracked about the formula in which they were baptized notice that these were men and women believing Jesus was the Christ, who had repented, and were water baptized by Philip, but they had not received the Holy Ghost.
Here is the problem: were these people in the Body of Christ or not?

The Problem Stated Clearly

If they were in the Body, then this means a person’s identity with the Body is unrelated to the presence of the Spirit. This would undermine the original position that the Spirit identifies the Body at Pentecost.

If they were not, then this means believing the gospel, even when water baptism occurs, does not identify them as members of the church, the Body of Christ. (This should cause many Baptists to blow a fuse who water baptize for church membership.)
This second option is worse than the first in that it concludes that it is possible to believe the gospel while lacking a complete position in Christ through the Spirit.

This is the beginning of the second blessing teaching that instructs believers to wait, will, and work for the second blessing of Spirit empowerment that comes sometimes years after their belief in the gospel (often accompanied by tongue talking, so it is said).

All second blessing teachers confuse the gospel of grace by adding works and making believers incomplete in Christ, but it is derived from the pattern and problem in Acts 8:14-17.
The problem persists only when it is maintained that the church of today began at Pentecost.

The Mid-Acts Solution

The problem should make clear the reality that the church, the Body of Christ, could not have begun before Acts 9. Paul says that all that believe his gospel are sealed with the Holy Spirit who baptizes them into Christ.

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” – Eph 1:13

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” – 1 Corinthians 12:13

Paul did not say this, nor was true for the Samaritans in Acts 8.

Knowing that the gospel of the kingdom with signs and powers to Samaria was not the gospel of the grace of God rescues the gospel from the holiness second blessing heresy. Knowing that the mystery church of Christ’s body was not present in Acts 8 allows these believers in the gospel of Jesus’ name to receive the word of prophecy for a time without the prophesied power of the Holy Ghost. If the church, the Body of Christ, did not begin until it was first dispensed and described to the apostle Paul then the Acts 8 problem goes away.

Why the Delay

The mid-Acts position also clears up why there was a delay for these Samaritans in receiving the Spirit: they required acknowledgment by the authoritative kingdom apostles to receive what Jerusalem was not. This kingdom authority does not concern the church which does not answer to Jerusalem.

The presence of Peter and John in Samaria shows that the glory of the Lord’s kingdom had departed from Jerusalem, since they were instructed to stay in Jerusalem by the Lord (Luke 24:47; Acts 8:1). Samaritans were receiving what should have been received by the priests and scribes. Samaritans were still Israelites (not Gentiles) and what was happening here was according to prophecy not mystery. Nevertheless, the kingdom could not be ushered in by the hands of Samaritans without a converted Jerusalem.

The kingdom come had been postponed, and the Holy Ghost was demonstrating this by His presence among the Samaritans blessed by Peter and John but long rejected by those in the temple. The gospel for the church today had not yet been revealed.
Not only does this resolve the problem with Acts 8, but it explains why Paul is saved. Since Acts 8 represents the Spirit’s departure from the prophetic purpose, in the next chapter the Lord creates a new apostle and sends him to all men with a mystery. The mystery concerns a new creature, a one body church identified with Jesus Christ by the Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17 poses a real problem if you think the church body of 1 Cor 12:13 began at Pentecost. There is only one consistent solution: mid-Acts Pauline right division.

Hi RTP
I can understand why you like Acts. Your man, Pastor Richard Jordan, made up a Whole doctrine from it. It's pretty interesting, actually. I'm Always amazed at how a person could come up with such fanciful ideas.

I only want to know if you're aware of the fact that Jesus appeared to Paul, fine, but then Paul disappeared into the desert (out of large "cities") for about 3 years and studied everything about Jesus.

This included speaking to Peter and the other Apostles that were available to him.

Paul came up with the doctrine in the bible. But I wouldn't put aside Peter and James, for instance. They LIVED WITH JESUS for over 3 years. Do you think they didn't know what Jesus believed? Why did He spend so much time teaching them? Maybe so they could pass on what they know?

In any case, if ANYONE is to be believed, it is our LORD.

Jesus is first.
The Apostles are second.
The Church is third.

And by Church, I mean a mainline Church. Not one that makes up it's own rules and regulations for Christendom. Jesus has already done that.

Fran

 

[FranC]

Know your audience. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles. He says it all throughout his epistles lol.

RTP
I'm going to answer to your post 101 and 109 at another time. I was sick and am very far behind.
You're right that Peter preached to the Jew and Paul preached to the gentile, but do you believe that BOTH of their preaching is not for us?

Do you believe that the Jew is not part of the Body and therefore lives under separate rules? This would seem to be the case from the video I watched: The Biggest mistake the Church Ever Made.

I'll tell you right now what I think of it, however.

it reminds me of when John Calvin came onto the scene. He read the N.T. and came up with the TULIP beliefs. These have led to the modern day belief of not only Calvinism in its entirety, but also this eternal security we Always seem to be debating.

Christianity did NOT START with Pastor Richard Jordan. He's very good but he's way off on his theology. Could it be that HE is right, and every other theologian is wrong??

It reminds me of the JW. They go around preaching with their very own bible. Now, some of my bibles do have the word dispensation, instead of stewardship. What does dispensation mean anyway? you could go to any dictionary and you'll find that it means: Management OR Stewardship.

Paul was speaking as to the MANAGEMENT of the New Covenant. He wasn't speaking about new rules for a new Body.
God is the same Yesterday, today, and Tomorrow. HE DOES NOT CHANGE. Hebrews 13:8

Jesus coming did away with much of the OT Laws, He abolished the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law, but He did not abolish the Moral Law. Everything Jesus said is for EVERYONE who wants to belong to the Kingdom of God.

Jesus came to be atonement for our sins, but also to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth. The Kingdom begins here.
Mathew 5 speaks to how we are to change internally.

There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing is to be ADDED to the bible. Revelation 22:18.

This is how Mormonism and Islam got started. One person, making up his own doctrine.

Fran

 

[FranC]

The bolded above.....wrong!

I wanted to know what happened between the time of Jesus' ascension and the writing of the bible in the 300's.

You had stated that you CARE NOTHING for the early Church Fathers.

You're telling me I'm wrong. But you don't say WHY??

When do YOU think the bible was canonized and put together and written as a Whole an entire book??

WHO or WHAT kept the Christian faith going till the arrival of the bible??

Fran

 

[FranC]

2 Timothy 1:12, For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Hey John 146,
You're right.

AS LONG AS YOU COMMIT yourself to HIM, you are saved, just like Paul said up above.

If you are NO LONGER COMMITED, are you still saved??

(what is being committed is the soul, of course)

Check out 2 Timothy 4:7-8
Paul has reached the end of his life, and tells Timothy he has fought the good fight. What fight? I thought we're just automatically saved? Paul says he h as kept the faith and will receive a crown of righteousness from the RIGHTEOUS JUDGE.

We like to forget that God is full of grace and love, but that He is also righteous and just.

Fran

 

[FranC]

Rom 16.25, Eph 3.3-7, 1 Cor 2.6-8, Col 1.25-26, Eph 3.9-10, Gal 1.11-12 and many many more!

I just checked out Romans 16:25.

1. Who is more important: The one who is able to establish? Jesus
Or the one who preaches the establishment? Paul

2. It's speaking about the scriptures of THE PROPHETS, according to the COMMANDMENT OF ETERNAL GOD.

3. Romans 16:26 "leading to OBEDIENCE OF FAITH".
What is obedience of faith?

It means we obey through faith and love and not the Law. But we still obey.

See Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

Paul is preaching in Romans that we are no longer slaves to the Law. But we have become friends and children of God.
He is NOT saying that we are no longer to obey the Law.

Obedience to the Law
Obedience through Faith

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

There is absolutely no scripture in the NT that says a person loses their salvation in Christ once they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

This OSAS and losing one's salvation debates are both man-made. Jesus and the apostles always talked about "life."

Anytime we think that our performance has anything to do with being with the Lord for eternity is legalistic and actually nullifies the very grace needed to experience His quality of life in this earth.

Personally I have not found one scripture that says that the believer who has Christ joined as one spirit in their spirit - ever gets kicked out of Christ. I see lot's of warning scriptures about walking by the flesh and that people will lose out on the life of Christ being experienced on this earth.

People believe with the heart and once that happens - we are joined as one spirit with the Lord and sealed by the Holy Spirit. People can say things if they have their minds all screwed up but that doesn't change their hearts where Jesus dwells.

God looks on the heart - man looks at the outward appearances.

People so often do not understand the "why" of the gospel and thus really miss out on the security that is ours in the Lord. This whole discussion about OSAS and losing one's salvation is never talked about in the NT. It is a man-made thing.

Jesus and the apostles always talked about "life" and experiencing that life both on this earth and for eternity.


We need to preach and teach the grace and love of God in Christ towards us so that we can have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him.