Hey Blain: I keep trying, when I suppose I should just realize that certain folks are going to believe something false because they want to. I was like that with my step-dad, right up to the end, so much so that my brother said, Sam, you have to realize that if he wants to go to hell that you cannot stop him. Well I tried right up to the last minute. It grieves me to see Christians following a false return of Christ, it is not my opinion that pre-trib is false, I know that pre-trib is not only false but dangerous and God will hold those in account who teach it. However I cannot stop anyone from believing in it if they want to. I do believe that some day beyond this life folks that read my post or that I have talked to about the false pre-trib rapture will look back and say, I sure wish I had paid attention to what he said.
THE DECEIVED CHRISTIAN
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Even if the pretrib rapture is a lie where did Jesus say that believing in the pretrib rapture would cost them their salvation? What makes a person saved? I mean if the timing of when we believed he would return was what determined if we make it heaven or hell then God's grace and love must be pretty limited. we are saved by faith in him not faith in when he returns.
And yes sometimes no matter what you do or how hard you try you cannot change peoples minds but that is something God knows all to well, sometimes you just have to know when to shake the dust off your feet and walk away. Also after reading your story I thought i would tell you that i think you could write some Christian short stories, you have talent as a writer and could use that to help teach and encourage others
And yes sometimes no matter what you do or how hard you try you cannot change peoples minds but that is something God knows all to well, sometimes you just have to know when to shake the dust off your feet and walk away. Also after reading your story I thought i would tell you that i think you could write some Christian short stories, you have talent as a writer and could use that to help teach and encourage others
After reading through this thread I am left wondering. Who are we to evangelize. Other Christians whose beliefs are different than ours concerning eschatology , or some other doctrine? Or are we to tell the good news of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ to unbelievers. Where is our mission? Is it evangelizing the pews? Or are we to take to the streets and find new brothers and sisters in Christ.
The talk about Satan being joyful over who believes one doctrine over another in a Christian congregation is misdirected.
Satan is joyful that we are arguing about timing instead of doing the work of our faith and telling all who we meet about Jesus .
just my two cents .
Blessings
Bill
The talk about Satan being joyful over who believes one doctrine over another in a Christian congregation is misdirected.
Satan is joyful that we are arguing about timing instead of doing the work of our faith and telling all who we meet about Jesus .
just my two cents .
Blessings
Bill
You should see the WARNINGS the Lord put in His Word for... Christians!
Here's a few to mull over...or not depending on whether you have been deceived or not:
[FONT="]1 Timothy 4:1,2[/FONT]
[FONT="]Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;[/FONT]
[FONT="]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron
("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)
1 Timothy 6:3-5[/FONT]
[FONT="]If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;[/FONT]
[FONT="]He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2 Timothy 4:3,4[/FONT]
[FONT="]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;[/FONT]
[FONT="]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 2:1-3[/FONT]
[FONT="]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT="]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.[/FONT]
[FONT="]And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Jude 1:4[/FONT]
[FONT="]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, abnegate, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)
Jude 1:17-21[/FONT]
[FONT="]Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;[/FONT]
[FONT="]How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.[/FONT]
[FONT="]These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]
[FONT="]But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)
Acts 20:27-30[/FONT]
[FONT="]For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]
[FONT="]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/FONT]
Here's a few to mull over...or not depending on whether you have been deceived or not:
[FONT="]1 Timothy 4:1,2[/FONT]
[FONT="]Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;[/FONT]
[FONT="]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron
("depart from the faith" is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place)
1 Timothy 6:3-5[/FONT]
[FONT="]If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;[/FONT]
[FONT="]He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
2 Timothy 4:3,4[/FONT]
[FONT="]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;[/FONT]
[FONT="]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 2:1-3[/FONT]
[FONT="]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/FONT]
[FONT="]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.[/FONT]
[FONT="]And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Jude 1:4[/FONT]
[FONT="]For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, abnegate, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)
Jude 1:17-21[/FONT]
[FONT="]Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;[/FONT]
[FONT="]How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.[/FONT]
[FONT="]These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit[/FONT][FONT="].[/FONT]
[FONT="]But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,[/FONT]
[FONT="]Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)
Acts 20:27-30[/FONT]
[FONT="]For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]
[FONT="]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.[/FONT]
The reasoning is that when many find out their escape clause was a lie, they will question what else about God can they not trust? And having lost trust they will lose faith. The question isn't whether you believe one way or another determines salvation, it doesn't; the question is how many because of the loss of trust and faith will go apostate?
This reasoning is flawed: the people in this scenario who lose their faith didn't have it in the finished work of Christ, but in a particular view of end times. Such faith is weak and worthless. People who don't continue walking in the truth haven't "lost faith"; they have rejected Christ. There is a massive difference.
Here's what the Spirit says to those calling doctrine of the devil, I'd like to see these attributes from all the people posting these types of threads. It really is a turn off, plus you guys won't teach I've asked lots of questions that have been ignore by you guys. Getting all hot and bothered over a secondary doctrine is a waste of time. But you probably believe your faith is what bring you God's grace.
"Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,"
"Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,"
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
When the pre-trib resurrection does not happen it will overthrow the faith of many,and they will follow the course of the world,and their Peace and safety agenda,and their false interpretation of religion,based on spiritual evolution,as the way to solve their problems on earth,and the way to a spiritual benefit,and be the time the world will not endure the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,looking at the Bible that it was not talking of a personal God,and they will honor the God of forces,the power of nature as their God.
God said when they say Peace and safety,the saints will not be deceived by it for they will know it is not the operation of God,and that it will lead to disaster,and God will go against them,and defeat them,and when they say Peace and safety,this temptation shall try all them that dwell on earth,but Jesus will deliver those in the truth from that temptation.
When they say Peace and safety,that is when the 7 years will begin,and the Bible says that the saints will be on earth,for the elect will not be deceived by it,so they have to be on earth.Anybody that understands when they say Peace and safety,should know there is no pre-trib resurrection,and Jesus said that He will deliver the elect from that temptation,and Paul said the elect will not be deceived by it.
So the people that understand when they say Peace and safety,what does that say about them,and the people that believe in a pre-trib resurrection,what does that say about them.
People do not understand that the tribulation is for the saints,not the world,and some think that the wrath of God will be in the 7 years period,but this is not true.
The first three and one half years the world can still repent of their sins,and salvation is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and represent God,Jesus,and the truth,and the wrath of God would not be upon them yet.
In the middle of the 7 years period all who do not love God,and took the mark of the beast,repentance,and salvation is no longer available to them,so God can take His children to be with Him.
But God allows the beast to make war against the saints,and he shall destroy the holy and mighty people,and they shall be given in to his hands for the last three and one half years,and when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people,then the saints will be gathered unto Christ,and then the wrath of God poured upon the world,and God will punish the world for their sins and iniquities against Him,then they will attack Israel.
The beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and ask the greatest historian if that could ever happen in the first century,and that person would say,get out of my face with that silly nonsense,for I do not entertain silly questions,for would you ask a scientist to tell how many atoms there are in the universe,so move along little doggy.
The beast has power to rule for three and one half years,which God is allowing him to rule,and have his way,for three and one half years,so the wrath of God would not be upon the world,for how would the beast have power to rule,and have his way,for three and one half years,if God was pouring His wrath on the world.
And also if the wrath of God was being poured out on the world,would not one think,if the wrath of God is poured out on them for 7 years,why is God taking so long to defeat them,did He get weaker somehow,and He is not in to slowly torturing someone,so why would it take so long to defeat them.Why would God take 7 years pouring out wrath on them,for what purpose if the saints are off the earth,and the world cannot be saved.
God is love,and God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and will allow the beast and the world to go against the saints,and at the end of the three and one half years those saints that remain shall be gathered unto Christ,and them the beast and the world will go against Israel as the last step to rid the world of all that is called God,or is worshipped,and go against God,by saying there is no personal God,and will not regard any god,and everyone that holds the testimony that Jesus is Lord and Savior,and even terribly defeat the religion of Islam because of their belief in a personal God before they go against the Christians,and when they get to Israel as the last step to rid the world of all that is called God,and those that hold the testimony that Jesus is Lord is when God's fury will come up in His face,and He will defeat the world,and save Israel.
Preaching a pre-trib resurrection is going to overthrow the faith of many,and they will go by an occult interpretation of the Bible,and the unified religious system's standard format is the occult.
People that say God would not allow the saints to go through the tribulation,does not make sense,for if that was the case no saint would of ever been persecuted in the whole history of the Church,for the tribulation is not worse in pain,and suffering,for persecution is persecution,but it is on a bigger scale,for it is the world persecuting the Christians.
Jesus said it will be the worse persecution in history,and He directed it towards the saints,which some people say that it was the first century,but how can that be the worse persecution ever in the tiny little area,with not that many people as Christians yet.
The Roman Catholic Church when they embraced Christianity did a lot more persecution than that tiny bit of persecution in the first century,for how many could actually be persecuted back then,especially when the majority of Israel did not accept Christ,which is why God allowed the overthrow of Jerusalem.
Preach the pre-trib and be ashamed,for God is love,and will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,so the saints have to go through the 7 years period,as God allows them to go against all that is of Him,before He puts the world down,with Israel being the last step they take to rid the world of all that is of God,and that is when they will be stopped,and they will have no excuse come judgement day,for God gave them plenty of time to get right with Him,the 6 trumpets being 6 warnings to the world to turn to God,but they did not heed them,but kept trying to solve their problems,so God allowed the beast to deceive them.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
When the pre-trib resurrection does not happen it will overthrow the faith of many,and they will follow the course of the world,and their Peace and safety agenda,and their false interpretation of religion,based on spiritual evolution,as the way to solve their problems on earth,and the way to a spiritual benefit,and be the time the world will not endure the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,looking at the Bible that it was not talking of a personal God,and they will honor the God of forces,the power of nature as their God.
God said when they say Peace and safety,the saints will not be deceived by it for they will know it is not the operation of God,and that it will lead to disaster,and God will go against them,and defeat them,and when they say Peace and safety,this temptation shall try all them that dwell on earth,but Jesus will deliver those in the truth from that temptation.
When they say Peace and safety,that is when the 7 years will begin,and the Bible says that the saints will be on earth,for the elect will not be deceived by it,so they have to be on earth.Anybody that understands when they say Peace and safety,should know there is no pre-trib resurrection,and Jesus said that He will deliver the elect from that temptation,and Paul said the elect will not be deceived by it.
So the people that understand when they say Peace and safety,what does that say about them,and the people that believe in a pre-trib resurrection,what does that say about them.
People do not understand that the tribulation is for the saints,not the world,and some think that the wrath of God will be in the 7 years period,but this is not true.
The first three and one half years the world can still repent of their sins,and salvation is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and represent God,Jesus,and the truth,and the wrath of God would not be upon them yet.
In the middle of the 7 years period all who do not love God,and took the mark of the beast,repentance,and salvation is no longer available to them,so God can take His children to be with Him.
But God allows the beast to make war against the saints,and he shall destroy the holy and mighty people,and they shall be given in to his hands for the last three and one half years,and when he shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people,then the saints will be gathered unto Christ,and then the wrath of God poured upon the world,and God will punish the world for their sins and iniquities against Him,then they will attack Israel.
The beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and ask the greatest historian if that could ever happen in the first century,and that person would say,get out of my face with that silly nonsense,for I do not entertain silly questions,for would you ask a scientist to tell how many atoms there are in the universe,so move along little doggy.
The beast has power to rule for three and one half years,which God is allowing him to rule,and have his way,for three and one half years,so the wrath of God would not be upon the world,for how would the beast have power to rule,and have his way,for three and one half years,if God was pouring His wrath on the world.
And also if the wrath of God was being poured out on the world,would not one think,if the wrath of God is poured out on them for 7 years,why is God taking so long to defeat them,did He get weaker somehow,and He is not in to slowly torturing someone,so why would it take so long to defeat them.Why would God take 7 years pouring out wrath on them,for what purpose if the saints are off the earth,and the world cannot be saved.
God is love,and God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and will allow the beast and the world to go against the saints,and at the end of the three and one half years those saints that remain shall be gathered unto Christ,and them the beast and the world will go against Israel as the last step to rid the world of all that is called God,or is worshipped,and go against God,by saying there is no personal God,and will not regard any god,and everyone that holds the testimony that Jesus is Lord and Savior,and even terribly defeat the religion of Islam because of their belief in a personal God before they go against the Christians,and when they get to Israel as the last step to rid the world of all that is called God,and those that hold the testimony that Jesus is Lord is when God's fury will come up in His face,and He will defeat the world,and save Israel.
Preaching a pre-trib resurrection is going to overthrow the faith of many,and they will go by an occult interpretation of the Bible,and the unified religious system's standard format is the occult.
People that say God would not allow the saints to go through the tribulation,does not make sense,for if that was the case no saint would of ever been persecuted in the whole history of the Church,for the tribulation is not worse in pain,and suffering,for persecution is persecution,but it is on a bigger scale,for it is the world persecuting the Christians.
Jesus said it will be the worse persecution in history,and He directed it towards the saints,which some people say that it was the first century,but how can that be the worse persecution ever in the tiny little area,with not that many people as Christians yet.
The Roman Catholic Church when they embraced Christianity did a lot more persecution than that tiny bit of persecution in the first century,for how many could actually be persecuted back then,especially when the majority of Israel did not accept Christ,which is why God allowed the overthrow of Jerusalem.
Preach the pre-trib and be ashamed,for God is love,and will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,so the saints have to go through the 7 years period,as God allows them to go against all that is of Him,before He puts the world down,with Israel being the last step they take to rid the world of all that is of God,and that is when they will be stopped,and they will have no excuse come judgement day,for God gave them plenty of time to get right with Him,the 6 trumpets being 6 warnings to the world to turn to God,but they did not heed them,but kept trying to solve their problems,so God allowed the beast to deceive them.
Johnny,you have never been taught about the post-trib rapture? here it is, read Matt 24 and Mark 13, that is Jesus describing the rapture of the church after the tribulation. Read 2Thess 2, that is Paul telling us that we cannot be raptured until AFTER the appearance of the Antichrist(the Antichrist reigns during the tribulation). Now go to the Rev 6 where the tribulation is described and then go to Rev 7 where the church is now in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation. On the pre-trib side there is nothing, just folks manipulating the scriptures and making things up. Also, you might look up "pre-tribulation rapture" in the encyclopedia and it will tell you who made it up and why...have a good study.
Hi Laish: I used to think the same way until I really got into the study of Christ return and realized that Satan had deceived most of the church into accepting a false pre-tribulation rapture that is designed to cause a great falling away from the faith when Christ does not return as expected and Christians find themselves in the tribulation running for their lives and wondering why God did not keep His word. Jesus taught a POST-tribulation rapture of the church, Paul taught the church could not be gather until AFTER the revealing of the Antichrist. John has the church in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation.
I suppose I will go to my grave wondering about this one, how can solid Christian teachers that seem to me to be really walking with God, miss the falseness of the pre-trib rapture teaching? First of all, most who believe in the false pre-trib rapture teaching are just following the crowd, they are supposing it to be true because so many others are teaching it. Then you have those who make a practice of twisting just about everything in the bible so it is no wonder that they twist the scriptures so they can believe an escape from the tribulation. I clearly understand all that, however I do not understand how someone like Adrian Rogers could be so deceived over such an important biblical teaching as the return of Christ. I found nothing wrong with his teachings except the false pre-trib rapture, it seems reasonable to me that a man who is so truthful and insightful with scripture must surely walk close to God. And since he walked that close to God then it seems reasonable that he would recognize by the Spirit and common sense when he had crossed the line from truth into error. I am writing this because I do not believe Adrian Rogers would had ever purposely lead people astray, so therefore he had to have actually been deceived by Satan. Folks, Satan is the deceiver, if he was deceived by teaching the false pre-trib rapture, and he was, then he had to have been deceived by Satan. Same with David Jeremiah, Charles Stanly, and many others. Apart from the issue itself(false pre-trib rapture) there is this incredible deception by Satan over most of the leadership in the church today. It is one thing to deceive the manipulators, and the unlearned, that always happens, however to deceive born again bible teachers who have a record of walking with God is astounding to me. My point is, if Satan can deceive men and women like that, over the issue of Christ return(an important issue), then what will be the next big deception? Maybe that we should all expect Jesus to arrive in Jerusalem with all the TV cameras on Him(actually heard a well known Preacher teach that). Wake up folks, we are living in a time of great deception. Note, don't anyone waste space in this forum to tell me pre-trib is true, because I know it is false, not my opinion, I absolutely know that it is false.