Whta is the Gospel!

[charisenexcelcis]

Regarding chruch history, the Penetecostal experience was common in the church and only fell out of favor after the Montanist heresy arose, centuries after the first Pentecost. It remained a rare but occasional experience among the monastics and the Armenians (the nation) and the Coptic Church. Also there is evidence that it was practiced by the Thomasines. It did not just disappear.

 

[phil36]

I think your confusing works of the Spirit, with a modern Theology that Pentecostals follow. I myself am not a cessationist.

It is a very good point that you make about heresy. out of wrong doctrine comes heresy, that's why you see it disappear really until modern times. Just like any heresy, they go along quite nice until it is shown it is a heresy, then it stops (but never fully). all the old heresy's are still with us one way or another.

Anyhow, later on I'll look through some reference books here and check your information. plus if you need a second experience, why not have a third, fourth, fifth, 20'th,100'th experience? that may sound silly to sum, but if as the pentecostals say you have a 'second' experience' why not have a third?

Another question, why do you need a second experience, when you have the Holy Spirit working in and through you already? the Power of God working in you, it makes you a new man, Jesus said if you have Faith you can move mountains... HE DID NOT SAY IF YOU HAVE A SECOND EXPERIENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ' you will be able to do these things?

There is nothing biblical about it. However, although this is a false doctrine, I believe those who are born again are in Christ no matter what denomination. although I personally do not accept that you can not believe in the Trinity and be saved, or if you did you would soon realise that the trinity is truth. and as far as I am aware pentecostals hold this except the oneness group, which definately follows a non trinitarian teaching and therefore not Christian..

Phil

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I think your confusing works of the Spirit, with a modern Theology that Pentecostals follow. I myself am not a cessationist.

It is a very good point that you make about heresy. out of wrong doctrine comes heresy, that's why you see it disappear really until modern times. Just like any heresy, they go along quite nice until it is shown it is a heresy, then it stops (but never fully). all the old heresy's are still with us one way or another.

Anyhow, later on I'll look through some reference books here and check your information. plus if you need a second experience, why not have a third, fourth, fifth, 20'th,100'th experience? that may sound silly to sum, but if as the pentecostals say you have a 'second' experience' why not have a third?

Another question, why do you need a second experience, when you have the Holy Spirit working in and through you already? the Power of God working in you, it makes you a new man, Jesus said if you have Faith you can move mountains... HE DID NOT SAY IF YOU HAVE A SECOND EXPERIENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ' you will be able to do these things?

There is nothing biblical about it. However, although this is a false doctrine, I believe those who are born again are in Christ no matter what denomination. although I personally do not accept that you can not believe in the Trinity and be saved, or if you did you would soon realise that the trinity is truth. and as far as I am aware pentecostals hold this except the oneness group, which definately follows a non trinitarian teaching and therefore not Christian..

Phil

You might want to look at the statements of faith put forth by the Assemblies of God, the Church of God in Christ, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, the Pentecostal Chruch of God, the Church of God, etc.
Remember that while our experiences are linear, they all radiate from the one covenant of salvation purchased on the cross. so whiule we may speak of things happening at this time or at that time, all the promises of God are fulfilled in one act, Jesus dying on the cross, and confirmed in one event, His resurrection. Even the second coming of Christ is merely an exptension of that.
One thing about the Oneness movement, they are a very small but vocal minority, a shame of putting subjective truth over objective truth of scripture.

 

[phil36]

Paul instructed us to not forbid the glossolia. He said that he experienced more than any other. There are different attitudes toward the experience, but unless we want to reject the teaching of Paul we must come to terms with the Pentecostal experience being present in the church. The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is now the second largest Christian tradition in the church, second only to the Roman Catholic Church. Charismatics are present in virtually every denomination in christiandom. We are not crazy, we are not heretics, and we are almost the only branch of christianity that is growing, and that in vast numbers.

You Are wrong Charisexcelcis, you are merging what Paul instructed and trying to say that this is the Pentecostal experience. You presupposition has marred an otherwise good post.

You are basically saying if you reject Pentecostalism you reject Paul's teaching. This is not true and a distortion on what Paul says.

Paul says not to forbid glossolalia as with other Gifts.. one man will have this, another will have that. not everyone will have tongues. there is a huge huge huge difference from what the Pentecostals would have you believe and also what you have written.

So we do not have to come to terms with your Pentecostal experience, for this is a distortion. Paul never ever, I will say that again, Paul never ever says we need the Pentecostal experience as the way you put it and the Pentecostalism.

When I read things like this I truly believe you do not understand what is going on in the first couple of chapters in Acts?

You have tried to write a post that on a quick read looks as if your are trying to be neutral, yet your post springboards on the back of modern Pentecostalism. I again say your axiom is biased. of course only if you where trying to be neutral.


Phil

 

[phil36]

You might want to look at the statements of faith put forth by the Assemblies of God, the Church of God in Christ, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, the Pentecostal Chruch of God, the Church of God, etc.
Remember that while our experiences are linear, they all radiate from the one covenant of salvation purchased on the cross. so whiule we may speak of things happening at this time or at that time, all the promises of God are fulfilled in one act, Jesus dying on the cross, and confirmed in one event, His resurrection. Even the second coming of Christ is merely an exptension of that.
One thing about the Oneness movement, they are a very small but vocal minority, a shame of putting subjective truth over objective truth of scripture.

I know what they believe and I never said they where not born again..

Now, I am not sure how to take this statement, for it mixes the cross with faulty doctrine? was that your intent, or bolstering your opinions.. and yet again we have plenty of pentecostals, babbling on with opinions and yet cannot show any biblical truth to all of this.

Remember I have not said they are not Born Again.. I think you need to get that into your head. as you seem to missing that point totally.

I think your point of all extending from the cross, is kind of pointless really, as that should be belived by all. However, where do you stop Charis? tell where do you stop? If I believe in Christs atoning work, and the parousia, and start using wrong doctrine is that ok.. For that is exactly what you are implyng Charis.

Another point, I know the oneness group is a minority, within the pentecostal group, infact most pentecostals do not want to associate with them.

So your point about subjective/objective truth does not hold. it is a shame that you are trying to say because they believe in the atoning work that this is a correct doctrine, when it plainly is not Scriptural. I would Scripture comes before mans truth...

anyhow we could argue all day, but I would like to see some scriptural proof, not just ranting opinions.

Phil

 

[charisenexcelcis]

You Are wrong Charisexcelcis, you are merging what Paul instructed and trying to say that this is the Pentecostal experience. You presupposition has marred an otherwise good post.

You are basically saying if you reject Pentecostalism you reject Paul's teaching. This is not true and a distortion on what Paul says.

Paul says not to forbid glossolalia as with other Gifts.. one man will have this, another will have that. not everyone will have tongues. there is a huge huge huge difference from what the Pentecostals would have you believe and also what you have written.

So we do not have to come to terms with your Pentecostal experience, for this is a distortion. Paul never ever, I will say that again, Paul never ever says we need the Pentecostal experience as the way you put it and the Pentecostalism.

When I read things like this I truly believe you do not understand what is going on in the first couple of chapters in Acts?

You have tried to write a post that on a quick read looks as if your are trying to be neutral, yet your post springboards on the back of modern Pentecostalism. I again say your axiom is biased. of course only if you where trying to be neutral.


Phil

I said that you cannot reject the Pentecostal experience, not that you must accept Pentecostal doctrine. I know that there are charismatics who are within your tradition. They believe as you do and practice the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If you truly believe that I am a heretic, then convict my by my beliefs, not by your presumptions. My reference to Paul's teaching is primarily a response to your contention that glossalia is simply disruptive. I have constantly stated that glossalia is not a requirement for salvation, nor is it a universal experience. I will go further to say that there are no "second class" Christians.
I believe that your Christian experience and tradition has much to offer me, enriching my own. I may never agree with everything that you say, but I believe that I can learn from you. The discussion of the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit is something that I believe enriches all of us. You may never agree with me, but I hope that what I say enriches your Christian walk.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I know what they believe and I never said they where not born again..

Now, I am not sure how to take this statement, for it mixes the cross with faulty doctrine? was that your intent, or bolstering your opinions.. and yet again we have plenty of pentecostals, babbling on with opinions and yet cannot show any biblical truth to all of this.

Remember I have not said they are not Born Again.. I think you need to get that into your head. as you seem to missing that point totally.

I think your point of all extending from the cross, is kind of pointless really, as that should be belived by all. However, where do you stop Charis? tell where do you stop? If I believe in Christs atoning work, and the parousia, and start using wrong doctrine is that ok.. For that is exactly what you are implyng Charis.

Another point, I know the oneness group is a minority, within the pentecostal group, infact most pentecostals do not want to associate with them.

So your point about subjective/objective truth does not hold. it is a shame that you are trying to say because they believe in the atoning work that this is a correct doctrine, when it plainly is not Scriptural. I would Scripture comes before mans truth...

anyhow we could argue all day, but I would like to see some scriptural proof, not just ranting opinions.

Phil

And I began there, with the statement that Paul said not to forbid glossalia, that he was glad to participate in it. Going off from that, why do you think glossalia was the first "gifting" that God poured out and was specifically used by Peter in his sermon as the fulfillment of the promise that the Holy spirit was to be poured out on all instead of the few?

 

[phil36]

I said that you cannot reject the Pentecostal experience, not that you must accept Pentecostal doctrine. I know that there are charismatics who are within your tradition. They believe as you do and practice the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If you truly believe that I am a heretic, then convict my by my beliefs, not by your presumptions. My reference to Paul's teaching is primarily a response to your contention that glossalia is simply disruptive. I have constantly stated that glossalia is not a requirement for salvation, nor is it a universal experience. I will go further to say that there are no "second class" Christians.
I believe that your Christian experience and tradition has much to offer me, enriching my own. I may never agree with everything that you say, but I believe that I can learn from you. The discussion of the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit is something that I believe enriches all of us. You may never agree with me, but I hope that what I say enriches your Christian walk.

I never said you where a heretic. I am saying alot of heretical teachings come from dodgy doctrine, I also have never said glossolalia is disruptive. I believe what Paul taught about the gifts. However, all else is not of Scripture. and I have also never said there are 'second class' Christians

You are right though we can learn alot from each other regarding different denominations. and personally I have learned alot, I just believe that the Holy Spirit has enriched me and worked an amazing work since my 'rebirth' and continues to do so.

I think we all learn from each other on here discussing what we believe what we don't, what is Scriptural, what isn't. But, one thing we are is Children of the Most High God

Phil

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I never said you where a heretic. I am saying alot of heretical teachings come from dodgy doctrine, I also have never said glossolalia is disruptive. I believe what Paul taught about the gifts. However, all else is not of Scripture. and I have also never said there are 'second class' Christians

You are right though we can learn alot from each other regarding different denominations. and personally I have learned alot, I just believe that the Holy Spirit has enriched me and worked an amazing work since my 'rebirth' and continues to do so.

I think we all learn from each other on here discussing what we believe what we don't, what is Scriptural, what isn't. But, one thing we are is Children of the Most High God

Phil

I apologize for misunderstanding then some of your stances. My comment regarding second class citizens is simply to emphasis that while I believe that the Pentecostal experience is enriching to any Christian, it is not a experience that makes them any more "saved". such a notion is silly and unBiblical. As for the "all else", what would you specify as not of Scripture?

 

[phil36]

And I began there, with the statement that Paul said not to forbid glossalia, that he was glad to participate in it. Going off from that, why do you think glossalia was the first "gifting" that God poured out and was specifically used by Peter in his sermon as the fulfillment of the promise that the Holy spirit was to be poured out on all instead of the few?

As I have asked a hundred times since this was brought up, why do you think Pentecost was special, why do you thing we do not see a re-occurence again in the later epistle, infact after the gentile inclusion into the vine.

Now you should know by now I am not against the gifts of the Spirit. Yet I do believe Pentecost was for a special reason as you should also now this.

From the top of my head, I think you are referring to the Joel prophecy?, are you saying that all men will have the Spirit poured out on them as this is what you have said Peter said! This is false, and you very well know it!

If you care to go through Acts starting at Chapter one, look at what is happening, ask yourself, why did pentecost happen? infact if you go back a few posts i have already pointed this olut, yet not one of you has answered them.. not one of you has provided scripture to back your claim, not one, and I was the first to ask for this ecidence and none of you can provide it, nor have any of you been able to say what was going on in acts, especially up until Acts 15.

So can you answer without opinions like everyone else.?

By the way one minute you say you know I believe in the gifts then in the next breath you try and make it look as if I deny what Paul taught.

Anyhow, Just to make it clear I am a Reformed Baptist with Charismatic leanings.. but I mean Charismatic with my seat belt firmly on!


phil

 

[phil36]

I will leave you all with a warning from Jesus Himself... this is to all who maybe think they are Prophets miracle workers etc.

I Never Knew You

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? prophesy in your name, and cast out demons'23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


Did you notice, these are people who think they are doing the work of the Lord, yet what does Jesus call them??????

 

[charisenexcelcis]

As I have asked a hundred times since this was brought up, why do you think Pentecost was special, why do you thing we do not see a re-occurence again in the later epistle, infact after the gentile inclusion into the vine.

Now you should know by now I am not against the gifts of the Spirit. Yet I do believe Pentecost was for a special reason as you should also now this.

From the top of my head, I think you are referring to the Joel prophecy?, are you saying that all men will have the Spirit poured out on them as this is what you have said Peter said! This is false, and you very well know it!

If you care to go through Acts starting at Chapter one, look at what is happening, ask yourself, why did pentecost happen? infact if you go back a few posts i have already pointed this olut, yet not one of you has answered them.. not one of you has provided scripture to back your claim, not one, and I was the first to ask for this ecidence and none of you can provide it, nor have any of you been able to say what was going on in acts, especially up until Acts 15.

So can you answer without opinions like everyone else.?

By the way one minute you say you know I believe in the gifts then in the next breath you try and make it look as if I deny what Paul taught.

Anyhow, Just to make it clear I am a Reformed Baptist with Charismatic leanings.. but I mean Charismatic with my seat belt firmly on!


phil

Acts 1:4-6. Jesus gave the command to wait in Jerusalem for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He goes on to describe how they will be given power to be witnesses throughout the world.
Acts 2:1-4 His promise is fulfilled. The church recieves the power to reach the world.
Acts 2:14-21. Peter points out this day as the fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, that the Sprit of God will be poured out on all Israel, not just the few prophets, but those of every social class.

On that Pentecost, Jesus' promise was fulfilled. Nothing more was needed regarding that. The church inequivocally recieved the power to reach the world. This is seen, I believe rightfully, as the creation of the church.
Now Peter points out that something else happened on that day. That a second prophecy was fulfilled, one that was not only corporate but individual, that the Spirit would be poured out. Now we know that Jesus breathed on the disciples before he left and that they recieved the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Sprit was already in them on the day of Pentecost. I believe that this was the presence of the Holy Spirit recieved at salvation. What then of this experience at Pentecost? Peter urges them to repent that they might recieve this gift of the Holy Spirit, promised to them and their children both near and far (verses 38-39). The concept of this being a promised gift recieved after the gift of salvation is what then we must understand.
So far then:
1. I believe that the experience on the day of Pentecost was something separate from the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in salvation.
2. I believe that on the day of Pentecost the church was given the power to reach the world, as promised and prophesied by Christ. I believe that in this the church recieved all the giftings that we speak of.
3. I believe that also on that day was the prophecy of Joel fulfilled that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on the many rather than the few. I believe, based on what Peter said about their children near and far that this was an ongoing prophecy that would be fulfilled continiously.
So, there's the start. What say thee?

 

[resurrection33]

Those are the books of the Gospel yes. But the actual message was the God came, Died for our sins, was buried and rose the third day.

I think there is more to it than that, isn't there?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I will leave you all with a warning from Jesus Himself... this is to all who maybe think they are Prophets miracle workers etc.

I Never Knew You

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? prophesy in your name, and cast out demons'23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


Did you notice, these are people who think they are doing the work of the Lord, yet what does Jesus call them??????

Just when I thought we had gotten to the point of having a nice exchange, you surprise me with your "final warning". As you wish. I hope someday that you will be able to get away from your preconceptions regarding Pentecostals.

 

[phil36]

Just when I thought we had gotten to the point of having a nice exchange, you surprise me with your "final warning". As you wish. I hope someday that you will be able to get away from your preconceptions regarding Pentecostals.

lol that wasn't aimed personally at you. it was a warning to all from Jesus Himself. When we talk of healings, works of the Spirit we should be very careful.

I have said that Pentecostals are saved, I don't know how many times I have to say that. but, look what the mess it has created... as I said before, heretical behaviour comes from bad doctrine.

We should heed Jesus' warnings seriously.

Phil

 

[rodiel]

Beloved, I that this is of no small matter to you so I will not take it lightly in response, and my prayer is that our God and savior Jesus Christ would grant us according to His grace hears to hear and eyes to see.
After giving thought through faith in Him who will hold no good thing from us, It seems through the evidence of the Spirit that you see and hear of the good news throughout the holy scriptures as spoken by the Holy Spirit some that others have already quoted and some like Gen.1:1-4; 2Cor.4:6; 2Cor.5:16-21; and 2Cor.6:1-2.
I pray that these would be of some comfort to you. your brother in the faith .

 

[MahogonySnail]

As someone who always gives good advice regarding church attendance, about instead of complaining about church, pitching in and helping to fix the problems... I do hope whenever a person speaks in tongues you are the first to raise your hand to give the interpretation..that you are doing your utmost to see that the women in your church are silent as Paul commanded, and that prophecy is being desired, sought after, as Paul said "seek to prophesy", and practiced for the edification of the Church...


If your church is not doing these things then it is no better, in fact probably worse than the average pentecostal church as no body is being edified through prophecy and your women are all talking and creating a disorderly church!



Anyway Paul in his travels made sure that believers had had the second experience of the Spirit:


Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

 

[pickles]

Hi Pickles.

Can you show me by Scripture, the different purposes of tongues? and Can you show explain the use of tongues after the first couple of Chapters in Acts, that have a definite purpose.

Thanks

Phil

Hi phil, the only place I have read of the types of tongues is in acts.
I only thought tongues was for the apostles as well when I was young. This is what I was taught.
Until I heard a child pray in tongues. I thought it was wrong and spoke to the parents about it. They told me it was a gift of the Holy Spirit and that it was given according to God's will.
They said to try and see if I could when I prayed thet night. I did and found I could pray in a language that was beautiful and I felt all came from my heart.
I wnt to bible study prayer meetings at their home , I was to shy to pray aloud myself but what I heard was heavenly music . There was often interpitation by some and I heard words spoken myself a few times. I also recieved understanding about things to come one time and all is coming true.
I cannot say if it is for all or just some, I do not think if one does not have the gift of tongues that they are not saved. I simply believe it is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I know when I pray in tongues that it is the honest prayer of the heart. I do test all as called to in scripture.
I wish I knew the scripture better as I know this is a debated issue.
I read that you have never seen an instant healing, I have, one of my children was born with a genetic issue that required surgery to correct. It is very common in my family. My child had all the symptoms and had been evaled at the hospital that day. The tests showed that the surgery would need to be done soon. That night I ask our prayer group to lay hands and pray for healing or the surgery to be done soon as the symptoms were wearing and weakening my child. After all layed hands and prayed for my infant child all symptoms stopped. When we took my child back in for additional tests the evidence of this was gone. The drs were confused and could not explain it. One said there must have been a shadow or some malfuntion of the imaging equipment.
This was a double mirical because we did not know at that time, but 4 yrs later when my child had simple toncil surgery we found out that my child had a rare reaction to the anistesia. It was a matter of minutes till death. My child survived, but we were told that if this had happened when an infant, my child would probably not survived.
I know the gifts of the Holy Spirit are questioned by some, all I know is that, that in scripture, when given in Jesus to God Our Father in faith, all is possible.
God bless, pickles

 

[cionski]

Before one would engage in the discussion about the "what is the gospel," one must first know how the biblical theme of the Scripture works. For example, the main priority of the drama of the Bible is not about how will a person be saved from eternal hell and ****ation but rather the main focus of the drama is about GOD establishing his kingdom of earth. If we will try to put this perspective in engaging the very definition of the Gospel, the discussion would make a lot more sense

 

[Consumed]

Before one would engage in the discussion about the "what is the gospel," one must first know how the biblical theme of the Scripture works. For example, the main priority of the drama of the Bible is not about how will a person be saved from eternal hell and ****ation but rather the main focus of the drama is about GOD establishing his kingdom of earth. If we will try to put this perspective in engaging the very definition of the Gospel, the discussion would make a lot more sense

amen, good news is gospel, a way was made back