Seducing spirits and doctrines of demons?

[sevenseas]

Yeah only certain ones are using the term heretic. I find it rather hysterical, that I told them several times, ok so you posted a vid, that is not how I form opinions and they posted another, and another one. Like somehow I will buckle and concede that they are right.

well the videos are for 'shock value' but as adults, it is far better to engage the brains God gave us and examine the facts

even so, there will differences of opinions but there are certain things that are undeniable regarding the Christian faith

to deny those things, such as salvation through Christ only ~ is actually considered heresy

another teaching I will present that is taught by MacArthur, is that the blood of Christ does not save us, He states it was Jesus death when the Bible is clear that the BLOOD of Christ atones for our sins

there is quite a list of things that are not sound

thing is, people ought to be able to discuss without loosing their ability to be a witness for Christ

name calling and telling those who do not agree with the doctrines of Lordship Salvation that they are bound for hell is not a Christian witness. that behavior falls OUTSIDE the response we should give

after all, do we represent ourselves or Someone far greater in whom we say we have salvation?

I'm sorry, but self control is evidence of maturity and respect for others. even the world knows that

I really do not even have the desire to argue, but I do have the desire to present the facts as they can be found in MacArthur's books, website, church and preaching events.

 

[ForthAngel]

first of all, no one called MacArthur a heretic that I am aware of. he has some skewed teaching which I'm documenting below.

it should also be noted that MacArthur is a 5 point Calvinist. that alone will result in differences in belief but does not create heresy. heresy would include not believing in the Trinity or stating Jesus is not God or there are other ways to be saved apart from what God states (in scripture). If someone is going to say they are a Christian and they reject the absolute core beliefs of what Christians agree a Christian is, then that is what is referred to as heresy.

1) MacArthur teaches that salvation is based on the life a believer lives. This is in direct contrast to scripture and known as Lordship Salvation. (there was another thread started some time back in which a Steve Lawson was posted. He is another Lordship Salvation proponent) The Bible plainly teaches that salvation is not based on how we live but on the finished work of Christ as per Romans 5:15, 6:23 and many other portions. You either believe Christ is the perfect atonement for sins or you do not and if you do not, then you are in CONTRADICTION to the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS , lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Lordship Salvation teaches that you must REPENT as a separate act PRIOR to accepting Christ and if you do not, then you are not truly saved. Thing is, the word repent in scripture does not mean to be sorry for your sins and pour ashes on your head. What it does mean, is to CHANGE YOUR MIND. So, if you are living a sinful life without Christ, you see your need for a Savior; the issue of sin is dealt with throughout a believer's life and if we do not wish to make God a liar, we agree with HIM, that we cannot offer a sinless life in propitiation for our own sins, but we are entirely dependent on the GRACE of God, which is FREE and cannot be improved upon by our efforts.

p4t presented both op's so unless he states otherwise, isn't it assured he is in fact a devotee of Lordship Salvation?

now I already presented an excellent article that points out the error(s) with Lordship Salvation in the thread on Lawson's preaching and I am linking to it in this post as well

we have had numerous posts with videos presented as 'evidence' of demonic distractions (not getting into it because I don't agree with the behavior anyway and I am pointing out the imbalance of swinging the pendulum the other way which is, I would hope a fair objection to the one sided presentations of certain members of this forum, not excluding the vitriol contained in so many of their posts and the less then objective responses, such as ignoring what people actually post and twisting what is said in order to make it seem those of us who do not adhere to their 'teachers' are well on our way to hell and not truly saved (which if one takes the time to study it, is the declaration of all true Lordship adherents to anyone who does not agree with their doctrine of Lordship Salvation)

HERE IS THE ARTICLE and if you do not take the time to read it, stop presenting videos, at no cost to you other than the time it takes to copy a web address and insert into the appropriate form provided by this forum, and tell us that we are not saved, are occupied by demons or have contributed to behavior unbecoming a follower of Christ and declared it the work of the Holy Spirit.

counter the article and counter why you think Lordship Salvation is correct without adding personal insult. prove yourselves as actually caring about others by holding intelligent conversation and posting more than a 'you are wrong and here is another video'

I will also post lessor known of MacArthur's teachings such as children cannot be saved as I have time

pretty sure you have enough to chew on with this one

Lordship salvation is biblical. You are twisting a bit of what is being taught about it though. MacArthur, as you stated, is a five point Calvinist which are the biblical doctrines of grace. You quoted one of the passages that the five points are based on. He, as many of us are, is opposed to "easy believeism", that is, a mere mental assent toward the Gospel. True salvation brings about submission to Christ in all things, i.e. submission to his lordship. This is in opposition to "easy believism", where one may admit to believe the Gospel and in God, but their lives and inward person is unaffected and they continue in wanton sin and rebellion, never actually submitting to Christ. Most conflate the change of the inward person and the works it produces with salvation itself and do this in error because it is not what is being taught by Lordship Salvation.

Salvation itself is a work of God in the person and nothing the person does whether good or bad affects God's gift of grace and faith. Upon being born again and believing the Gospel, the person will turn from his sin toward God, having a godly sorrow over the sins they have and will undoubtedly continue to commit. However, the Holy Spirit now indwelling the believer will always lead them to Christ in all things and will work to sanctify the person over the course of their life. Those who make a choice to believe in Christ, yet are unaffected and do not submit to Christ are showing signs of mental assent without true conversion. Even the demons believe, and shudder after all.

Also, I never said you said MacArthur was teaching heresy, but some here have and those were the ones I was asking to show proof. Lordship Salvation is biblical and not heresy. The doctrines of grace presented in TULIP are biblical and not heresy. The five solas are not heresy. There is too much in the article to address in one post, but hopefully my overview of Lordship salvation is adequate.

As far as babies and children, this is something Calvinists don't always agree on because the bible doesn't say much about it. I had a post in another thread about my beliefs and I dunno if I agree with MacArthur or not. We dunno the mind of God, but if we go off scripture itself, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Does God hold children and babies who haven't developed enough to be able to reason accountable in this regard? I dunno. Given Jesus' attitude toward children, I would like to believe he saves them, but at the same time, if they were not predestined to salvation anyway and salvation was never forthcoming as they grew older, then God is within his right to do as he wills. The same logic can be applied to those who never get a chance to hear the Gospel. Is God being unfair by not giving them the same chance, or is the bible telling truth when it says we are conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, and all are guilty? Personally, I'll go with what the bible says.

As far as the videos, anyone with any biblical knowledge or an ounce of discernment will come to the conclusion that what is being presented is demonic in nature and in no way reflects godly or Christ-like behavior. In fact, quite the contrary. The videos and exposure to false doctrines are meant to serve as a warning to those being drawn in by undoubtedly heretical teachings that spit in the face of scripture and defy the Gospel at every turn, even to the point of attacking the character of Christ (blasphemy) and the Holy Spirit (unforgivable blasphemy). If you won't stand against it, at least don't impede those who have a love for God and the truth and stay out of their way.

 

[Grace777x70]

I found a balanced view on this subject. He talks about good intentions and the fact that the term "lordship salvation" is a good one - the rubber meets the road when we define what that means.

This video is only 3 minutes long. He says there are 2 kinds of "lordship salvation" one a Calvinists view and then there is the Armenian one too.

He does say at the end that it's a sad system.

It appears that it actually denies the work of Christ and becomes a works-based religion because of the way it is sometimes stated by some people that push this doctrine.

Jesus is Lord and Savior - there is no partitioning Him out.


[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]

Here is a thread on it if people are interested in it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137878-lordship-salvation-false-teaching.html

 

[Meggido]

Lordship salvation is biblical. You are twisting a bit of what is being taught about it though. MacArthur, as you stated, is a five point Calvinist which are the biblical doctrines of grace. You quoted one of the passages that the five points are based on. He, as many of us are, is opposed to "easy believeism", that is, a mere mental assent toward the Gospel. True salvation brings about submission to Christ in all things, i.e. submission to his lordship. This is in opposition to "easy believism", where one may admit to believe the Gospel and in God, but their lives and inward person is unaffected and they continue in wanton sin and rebellion, never actually submitting to Christ. Most conflate the change of the inward person and the works it produces with salvation itself and do this in error because it is not what is being taught by Lordship Salvation.

Salvation itself is a work of God in the person and nothing the person does whether good or bad affects God's gift of grace and faith. Upon being born again and believing the Gospel, the person will turn from his sin toward God, having a godly sorrow over the sins they have and will undoubtedly continue to commit. However, the Holy Spirit now indwelling the believer will always lead them to Christ in all things and will work to sanctify the person over the course of their life. Those who make a choice to believe in Christ, yet are unaffected and do not submit to Christ are showing signs of mental assent without true conversion. Even the demons believe, and shudder after all.

Also, I never said you said MacArthur was teaching heresy, but some here have and those were the ones I was asking to show proof. Lordship Salvation is biblical and not heresy. The doctrines of grace presented in TULIP are biblical and not heresy. The five solas are not heresy. There is too much in the article to address in one post, but hopefully my overview of Lordship salvation is adequate.

As far as babies and children, this is something Calvinists don't always agree on because the bible doesn't say much about it. I had a post in another thread about my beliefs and I dunno if I agree with MacArthur or not. We dunno the mind of God, but if we go off scripture itself, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Does God hold children and babies who haven't developed enough to be able to reason accountable in this regard? I dunno. Given Jesus' attitude toward children, I would like to believe he saves them, but at the same time, if they were not predestined to salvation anyway and salvation was never forthcoming as they grew older, then God is within his right to do as he wills. The same logic can be applied to those who never get a chance to hear the Gospel. Is God being unfair by not giving them the same chance, or is the bible telling truth when it says we are conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, and all are guilty? Personally, I'll go with what the bible says.

As far as the videos, anyone with any biblical knowledge or an ounce of discernment will come to the conclusion that what is being presented is demonic in nature and in no way reflects godly or Christ-like behavior. In fact, quite the contrary. The videos and exposure to false doctrines are meant to serve as a warning to those being drawn in by undoubtedly heretical teachings that spit in the face of scripture and defy the Gospel at every turn, even to the point of attacking the character of Christ (blasphemy) and the Holy Spirit (unforgivable blasphemy). If you won't stand against it, at least don't impede those who have a love for God and the truth and stay out of their way.

I think I will stretch the legs and then go sit at the grown up table for awhile.

 

[sevenseas]

Lordship salvation is biblical. You are twisting a bit of what is being taught about it though. MacArthur, as you stated, is a five point Calvinist which are the biblical doctrines of grace. You quoted one of the passages that the five points are based on. He, as many of us are, is opposed to "easy believeism", that is, a mere mental assent toward the Gospel. True salvation brings about submission to Christ in all things, i.e. submission to his lordship. This is in opposition to "easy believism", where one may admit to believe the Gospel and in God, but their lives and inward person is unaffected and they continue in wanton sin and rebellion, never actually submitting to Christ. Most conflate the change of the inward person and the works it produces with salvation itself and do this in error because it is not what is being taught by Lordship Salvation.

Salvation itself is a work of God in the person and nothing the person does whether good or bad affects God's gift of grace and faith. Upon being born again and believing the Gospel, the person will turn from his sin toward God, having a godly sorrow over the sins they have and will undoubtedly continue to commit. However, the Holy Spirit now indwelling the believer will always lead them to Christ in all things and will work to sanctify the person over the course of their life. Those who make a choice to believe in Christ, yet are unaffected and do not submit to Christ are showing signs of mental assent without true conversion. Even the demons believe, and shudder after all.

Also, I never said you said MacArthur was teaching heresy, but some here have and those were the ones I was asking to show proof. Lordship Salvation is biblical and not heresy. The doctrines of grace presented in TULIP are biblical and not heresy. The five solas are not heresy. There is too much in the article to address in one post, but hopefully my overview of Lordship salvation is adequate.

As far as babies and children, this is something Calvinists don't always agree on because the bible doesn't say much about it. I had a post in another thread about my beliefs and I dunno if I agree with MacArthur or not. We dunno the mind of God, but if we go off scripture itself, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Does God hold children and babies who haven't developed enough to be able to reason accountable in this regard? I dunno. Given Jesus' attitude toward children, I would like to believe he saves them, but at the same time, if they were not predestined to salvation anyway and salvation was never forthcoming as they grew older, then God is within his right to do as he wills. The same logic can be applied to those who never get a chance to hear the Gospel. Is God being unfair by not giving them the same chance, or is the bible telling truth when it says we are conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, and all are guilty? Personally, I'll go with what the bible says.

As far as the videos, anyone with any biblical knowledge or an ounce of discernment will come to the conclusion that what is being presented is demonic in nature and in no way reflects godly or Christ-like behavior. In fact, quite the contrary. The videos and exposure to false doctrines are meant to serve as a warning to those being drawn in by undoubtedly heretical teachings that spit in the face of scripture and defy the Gospel at every turn, even to the point of attacking the character of Christ (blasphemy) and the Holy Spirit (unforgivable blasphemy). If you won't stand against it, at least don't impede those who have a love for God and the truth and stay out of their way.

thanks for the reply. let me just address a couple of things and I will get back to a detailed response when I have time. life goes on off the boards as well.

with regards to Lordship Salvation, that will be an automatic disagreement for many as has been stated. As that is so, it is the equivalent of me saying you have to speak in tongues to be saved (which I do not see in scripture and I do not see Lordship salvation, that is salvation PLUS in scripture either)

do you see what I am saying here? if a person says 'it is this way' (whatever it is) and no other way, then automatically it creates a class of believers who, according to the first class, are NOT saved. That, is very problematical and we better all make sure we are able to give an answer that illustrates we believe according to scripture. so, the discussion on that matter is unavoidable; but I do not think the accusations of people having fake salvation according to LS salvationists , is other than the teaching of those who believe that doctrine.

this business of mere mental assent is, pardon me here but let me be honest, total GARBAGE. unless we believe as MacArthur tells us to believe according to his interpretation, we have only MENTAL assent? this will bring me to my next point regarding the salvation of children, but that is for another post and another day I think. I see you have touched on that further on in your post, but I would prefer to deal with objections to MacArthur's teachings on a point by point basis

Also, I never said you said MacArthur was teaching heresy, but some here have and those were the ones I was asking to show proof. Lordship Salvation is biblical and not heresy. The doctrines of grace presented in TULIP are biblical and not heresy. The five solas are not heresy. There is too much in the article to address in one post, but hopefully my overview of Lordship salvation is adequate.

that's fine. I know you didn't. I have not said Lordship salvation is heresy and I am slow to tender that conclusion but I do believe it is ADDING to salvation and therefore in error. I believe intent will be a factor in how the Lord judges as He looks on the heart and we do not get to judge hearts and that goes both ways ~ both sides of the belief regarding LS.

I'm not a Calvinist either, so I cannot agree with you on that one either. But is that some kind of new disagreement in the history of Christianity?

with regards to the video. my advice to anyone caught up in practicing those things would be to run,, not walk, to the nearest exit.

I hope I don't have to say that again. To extend even more credibility to that statement, I am neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic and frankly don't care for labels. Labels define and as we are to grow in Christ, I would not care to be labelled something I outgrew or changed my belief on 15 years ago as per the video of Joyce Meyer. She has changed over the years and is to be commended for that, not called a heretic because she taught what she was taught and has since learned it is not so.

again, will respond in more detail regarding LS but not tonight and then I will continue with the other things I see as error

thanks

 

[Laish]

This is equally applied to people like John MacArthur who will also give an account to Jesus one day for syaing , yeah that Holy Spirit, I put him in such a tight box, he never moved in my ministry, look what I did Jesus, I was defending your faith...I did good, right?

Okkkkkkk
and your point is ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[samuel23]

Hi Seven: How can anyone argue whether it is the death of Jesus that saves us or the blood of Jesus that saves us? We are saved by the sacrifice of Christ and that involved His death and the shedding of His blood. I do not think that the bible separates those two things.

 

[willybob]

any doctrine that doesn't conform one to godliness and holiness is a doctrine of devils..

 

[sevenseas]

Hi Seven: How can anyone argue whether it is the death of Jesus that saves us or the blood of Jesus that saves us? We are saved by the sacrifice of Christ and that involved His death and the shedding of His blood. I do not think that the bible separates those two things.

Matthew 26:27-28
And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:12-14
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 13:11-12
For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me

Revelation 7:14
I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[sevenseas]

any doctrine that doesn't conform one to godliness and holiness is a doctrine of devils..

sounds great

please explain how that works

thank you

 

[ForthAngel]

thanks for the reply. let me just address a couple of things and I will get back to a detailed response when I have time. life goes on off the boards as well.

with regards to Lordship Salvation, that will be an automatic disagreement for many as has been stated. As that is so, it is the equivalent of me saying you have to speak in tongues to be saved (which I do not see in scripture and I do not see Lordship salvation, that is salvation PLUS in scripture either)

These two concepts are really far apart... I don't understand why people go so hard against Jesus as their Lord. Do you not submit to him as your Lord and Savior? If someone denies that Jesus is Lord, are they not in fact rejecting the Gospel? Lordship salvation doesn't add anything to the Gospel or salvation, it expands on the nature of a regenerated born again man and simply states that they will ultimately submit to Jesus as their Lord and King. Do you deny this is a Christian belief? Who is Jesus to you if not your Lord? What is the alternative? I'd be wary of anyone who says they are a Christian yet denies Christ as their Lord. It makes absolutely no sense. Is it more like "Thanks, Jesus, for saving me but I'ma go do my own thing now bruh"? Just trying to understand where you are coming from on this. Obviously you think that some work is involved, but the doctrines of grace outlined in Calvinistic and reformed theology all vehemently deny that accusation as would any proponent of Lordship salvation.

do you see what I am saying here?

I'm trying, but no, I really don't.

if a person says 'it is this way' (whatever it is) and no other way, then automatically it creates a class of believers who, according to the first class, are NOT saved. That, is very problematical and we better all make sure we are able to give an answer that illustrates we believe according to scripture. so, the discussion on that matter is unavoidable; but I do not think the accusations of people having fake salvation according to LS salvationists , is other than the teaching of those who believe that doctrine.

Um.... It's not about "classes of Christians", it's about real and fake. Submitting to Christ in trust and obedience IS the saving faith required for salvation, no? Acknowledging his existence with no trust, faith, or submitting to him is not an active saving faith. Again, even the demons believe and shudder. Submission to Christ is the logical next step in saving faith. What's the alternative? Use him as a get out of hell free card and then go do your own thing apart from him? Again, makes no sense. There is nothing extrabiblical about this teaching. Jesus said his sheep know his voice and they will follow him, and we do.

this business of mere mental assent is, pardon me here but let me be honest, total GARBAGE.

Nope. See plenty of this in every church in the world. We call them Sunday Christians. Church is a social club and they show no real signs of conversion. They may amen a lot, speak some Christianese, and know a few verses they heard last Sunday, but they have in no way devoted themselves to Christ in faith and obedience.

unless we believe as MacArthur tells us to believe according to his interpretation, we have only MENTAL assent? this will bring me to my next point regarding the salvation of children, but that is for another post and another day I think. I see you have touched on that further on in your post, but I would prefer to deal with objections to MacArthur's teachings on a point by point basis

Unless you believe as the bible tells you to believe***

No real interpretation needed when it comes to a Christian submitting to Christ as Lord, just some common (maybe not so common anymore) sense.

that's fine. I know you didn't. I have not said Lordship salvation is heresy and I am slow to tender that conclusion but I do believe it is ADDING to salvation and therefore in error. I believe intent will be a factor in how the Lord judges as He looks on the heart and we do not get to judge hearts and that goes both ways ~ both sides of the belief regarding LS.

Thanks for being polite in your response so far (I am trying to do so as well), but again, I think you are misunderstanding Lordship Salvation. IMO, it's simply a way of describing a true saving faith in Christ. It's only logical that one submits to Christ as their Lord. If not, what's the point? Easy believism is not saving faith. It's a security blanket with no real affect on the person inwardly. The grace of God is a powerful thing and those who put their faith in him will give all to follow him because he is their LORD and KING.

I'm not a Calvinist either, so I cannot agree with you on that one either. But is that some kind of new disagreement in the history of Christianity?

Don't think so. God's sovereignty has been undermined by tons of people and goes back to the Pharisees and probably well before that. The only thing Calvin and the reformers did in their time was go back to the bible to see what it had to say on the matter.

with regards to the video. my advice to anyone caught up in practicing those things would be to run,, not walk, to the nearest exit.

I'm glad that at the very least we can agree on this.

I hope I don't have to say that again. To extend even more credibility to that statement, I am neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic and frankly don't care for labels. Labels define and as we are to grow in Christ, I would not care to be labelled something I outgrew or changed my belief on 15 years ago as per the video of Joyce Meyer. She has changed over the years and is to be commended for that, not called a heretic because she taught what she was taught and has since learned it is not so.

She has never repented of her heresy and blasphemy against Christ as far as I know. If she has, she should do more to make it known and do everything in her power to right it. Can't see her doing that, but if someone can prove me wrong, I would love that, sincerely.

again, will respond in more detail regarding LS but not tonight and then I will continue with the other things I see as error

thanks

Thanks for your reply.

 

[ForthAngel]

Nice short clip with Paul Washer:

[video=youtube;DRjGuAp-ic4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRjGuAp-ic4[/video]

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

2 Thessalonians 2
2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am NOT saying there is no such thing as heresy as has been slanderously said - but true heresy must be based on Christ Himself and that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone and that His blood has taken away our sins. In Him alone we have redemption through His blood - the forgiveness of sins.

Good, then what do you say about Joyce Meyer's heresies???

Jesus ceased to be God (no longer deity/lost his divine essence)
Jesus suffered at the hands of demons in hell
The atonement didn't take place on the cross
Believe all this or you aren't saved
Jesus was the first born again man
People are little gods (in the divine/deity sense) - not in this clip but is something she teaches in line with all WoF teachers
Christians are sinless (if not, Jesus died in vain according to her)

 

[SovereignGrace]

...and don't forget the Pharisees were correct when the crucified Jesus.

Has that FACT ever crossed your mind.

You see,LEGALLY,they HAD TO crucify Jesus.

Your motives,and "rightness" comes with a little twist huh?

Kudos! Finally you see the sovereign will of a sovereign God at work in His creation. Hallelujah! Your eyes have been opened to this truth!!

Soli Deo Gloria!!!

 

[Stephen63]

I found a balanced view on this subject. He talks about good intentions and the fact that the term "lordship salvation" is a good one - the rubber meets the road when we define what that means.

This video is only 3 minutes long. He says there are 2 kinds of "lordship salvation" one a Calvinists view and then there is the Armenian one too.

He does say at the end that it's a sad system.

It appears that it actually denies the work of Christ and becomes a works-based religion because of the way it is sometimes stated by some people that push this doctrine.

Jesus is Lord and Savior - there is no partitioning Him out.


[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]

Here is a thread on it if people are interested in it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137878-lordship-salvation-false-teaching.html

You rule out commentaries by well-known theologians, & believe internet videos by uneducated unknowns?

That's messed up.

 

[preacher4truth]

You rule out commentaries by well-known theologians, & believe internet videos by uneducated unknowns?

That's messed up.

Yep. There is also another video of Bob Wilkin giving the official Free Grace Theology stance of Grace Evangelical Society. Basically it is believe, live like the devil, no evidence of conversion = heaven. No wonder they like his videos and the likes of Joseph Prince.

 

[sevenseas]

These two concepts are really far apart... I don't understand why people go so hard against Jesus as their Lord. Do you not submit to him as your Lord and Savior? If someone denies that Jesus is Lord, are they not in fact rejecting the Gospel? Lordship salvation doesn't add anything to the Gospel or salvation, it expands on the nature of a regenerated born again man and simply states that they will ultimately submit to Jesus as their Lord and King. Do you deny this is a Christian belief? Who is Jesus to you if not your Lord? What is the alternative? I'd be wary of anyone who says they are a Christian yet denies Christ as their Lord. It makes absolutely no sense. Is it more like "Thanks, Jesus, for saving me but I'ma go do my own thing now bruh"? Just trying to understand where you are coming from on this. Obviously you think that some work is involved, but the doctrines of grace outlined in Calvinistic and reformed theology all vehemently deny that accusation as would any proponent of Lordship salvation.

hi Forth

I do want to respond to all of your post, but let me just address this portion for now cause I do not have time for the proper answer on all the rest of it that your post deserves (and I truly do appreciate the time you are taking to respond)


I know and believe and actually love the fact that Jesus is my Lord. Where we differ is in believing that you are not saved unless you incorporate that fact into your salvation.

The mistake being made by LS is stating that unless we 'submit' to Christ as Lord we are not saved.

He becomes our Lord, because He IS Lord when we are saved. We cannot make Him what He already is.

One day, EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. that means EVERYONE.

so He IS Lord. however, He is a kind, gentle and loving Lord who understands our frailties and He does not whop us over the head when we sin ~ even deliberately. The day everyone calls Him Lord though, will be a different day. They will have no choice but to bow and admit that Jesus Christ is Lord

Jesus is Lord and He is MY Lord. He is also my Savior, my Friend and the Lamb of God and worthy of all my worship, trust, loyalty, love and just anything that I can give that is worth anything of my life.

since you asked and I have answered, I hope you can accept what I wrote.

will hopefully get back later.

thanks again

ps...doesn't Jesus say that if we deny Him He will deny us? I take that seriously

yes. Jesus IS Lord and He is my Lord. please do not confuse me with any other person in the boards even if I agree with them from time to time. my answer is my answer and I cannot help what anyone else writes or thinks

 

[Meggido]

Hi Seven: How can anyone argue whether it is the death of Jesus that saves us or the blood of Jesus that saves us? We are saved by the sacrifice of Christ and that involved His death and the shedding of His blood. I do not think that the bible separates those two things.

What was the purpose of his death and what was the purpose of his shed blood?

So what is more important, his death or the shedding of his blood?

 

[Stephen63]

What was the purpose of his death and what was the purpose of his shed blood?

So what is more important, his death or the shedding of his blood?

Both.

Without the shedding of blood, there's no remission of sins. That shedding requires death.

Heb 9:15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Both.

 

[Meggido]

Both.

Without the shedding of blood, there's no remission of sins. That shedding requires death.

Heb 9:15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Both.

Thank you,

The shedding of blood is for forgiveness of sin and redemption from the powers of darkness.

Jesus said in John 17.3:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 10.9-10:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I see no such thing that the blood or death of Jesus gives eternal life to anyone. I see the blood and death gives us forgiveness for SIN and purchased us from the powers of darkness and justifies, reconciles us back to Father.

Now Samuel may be using the term "saved" to mean everything above and that is still misleading, although understood, but if he is using to define eternal life, he is wrong. The shed blood and death of Jesus do not give you eternal life. When someone says the blood saves them, we get into deception if they define "save/s" as eternal life.

I think the real thing is how we use/define the term Save or Saves