Consequences of sinning
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It means that they are deceived by the deceitfulness of sin and that they do not have a renewed mind and that they are living by the flesh instead of by the spirit.
Romans 7:17-20 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
We deal with the flesh by this below :
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Usually religion has this backwards when they say "Stop doing the works of the flesh and you will be living by the spirit". It's the complete opposite in the kingdom of God that is within us.
The heavenly dynamic of transformation by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror is contrary to what religion has taught us.
Romans 7:17-20 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
We deal with the flesh by this below :
Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Usually religion has this backwards when they say "Stop doing the works of the flesh and you will be living by the spirit". It's the complete opposite in the kingdom of God that is within us.
The heavenly dynamic of transformation by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror is contrary to what religion has taught us.
G777 just flushed the whole Matthew 18 parable down the toilet.
I posted the parable in its entirety. Impossible to misinterpret. Therefore any interpretation that denies the unmistakeable outcome of that parable leads one to conclusion that such a person is a false teacher.
And you are happy with such a teaching, because it gives you a license to remain in your bondages.
But that won't save you on the day of judgement, when the revelation of God's righteous judgment becomes apparent to all.
Romans 2v5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent <unrepentant> heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
I posted the parable in its entirety. Impossible to misinterpret. Therefore any interpretation that denies the unmistakeable outcome of that parable leads one to conclusion that such a person is a false teacher.
And you are happy with such a teaching, because it gives you a license to remain in your bondages.
But that won't save you on the day of judgement, when the revelation of God's righteous judgment becomes apparent to all.
Romans 2v5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent <unrepentant> heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
I'm looking any day now for the Hypergrace Bible to hit the shelves.
Actually the Matthew 18 parable was showing the "Jewish" listeners of their need to forgive from their heart. It is still true today for unbelievers that don't have Christ in them.
Only a new heart where Christ dwells will give this. We don't achieve the righteousness of God by human effort. Only the true gospel message of the grace of God in Christ brings this to all of us.
Christ has reconciled all things to Himself and the world and the people are all in the kingdom of God and the unrighteous will be cast out by the angels just like Jesus said. The tares are in with the wheat.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
It's time for all of us to "repent and believe in the gospel" - just like Jesus said to do in Mark 1:15 to the Jews listening - especially the good living moral law keeping Pharisees who were relying on their own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness.
To these types - Jesus gave the law of Moses on steroids ( Moses 2.0 version where Jesus elevated the Law ) to expose their self-righteousness.
Only a new heart where Christ dwells will give this. We don't achieve the righteousness of God by human effort. Only the true gospel message of the grace of God in Christ brings this to all of us.
Christ has reconciled all things to Himself and the world and the people are all in the kingdom of God and the unrighteous will be cast out by the angels just like Jesus said. The tares are in with the wheat.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
It's time for all of us to "repent and believe in the gospel" - just like Jesus said to do in Mark 1:15 to the Jews listening - especially the good living moral law keeping Pharisees who were relying on their own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness.
To these types - Jesus gave the law of Moses on steroids ( Moses 2.0 version where Jesus elevated the Law ) to expose their self-righteousness.
I also love that Scripture. Shows Paul's heart for the things of God and for God's people.
And look at what Paul writes just a few verses after that:
2 timothy 4:16-18 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The Lord stood with Paul and strengthened him;
Paul was delivered out of the mouth of the lion;
The Lord shall deliver Paul from every evil work; and
The Lord will preserve Paul unto His heavenly kingdom.
Who preserves Paul unto His heavenly kingdom? Does Paul preserve himself? No. The Lord preserves ...
And look at what Paul writes just a few verses after that:
2 timothy 4:16-18 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The Lord stood with Paul and strengthened him;
Paul was delivered out of the mouth of the lion;
The Lord shall deliver Paul from every evil work; and
The Lord will preserve Paul unto His heavenly kingdom.
Who preserves Paul unto His heavenly kingdom? Does Paul preserve himself? No. The Lord preserves ...
Before Pentecost:
Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors.
After Pentecost:
Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Before Pentecost, Father please forgive us as we forgive others.
After Pentecost, we forgive much because we know that we have been forgiven much.
And for the record, forgiveness of others is important to us so that our hearts are free of bitterness. And also for the record, I do believe in going to Father if/when we stumble and agree with Him (confess) that what we did was not proper in His sight.
In 1 John 1:9, the word "confess" is the Greek word homologeo which means to say the same thing. So when we "confess" our sins, we agree with what Father tells us in His Word. We go to Him and agree with Him. We say the same thing as His Word concerning whatever caused us to stumble.
Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors.
After Pentecost:
Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Before Pentecost, Father please forgive us as we forgive others.
After Pentecost, we forgive much because we know that we have been forgiven much.
And for the record, forgiveness of others is important to us so that our hearts are free of bitterness. And also for the record, I do believe in going to Father if/when we stumble and agree with Him (confess) that what we did was not proper in His sight.
In 1 John 1:9, the word "confess" is the Greek word homologeo which means to say the same thing. So when we "confess" our sins, we agree with what Father tells us in His Word. We go to Him and agree with Him. We say the same thing as His Word concerning whatever caused us to stumble.
I have said this about 20x times but in order to help others reading the thread I will post again about works despite what some others are always trying to "twist" what is being said.
But I rejoice in this because it gives me another opportunity to preach Christ again......I love to proclaim what He has done for us in His great love and grace.
Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
But I rejoice in this because it gives me another opportunity to preach Christ again....
..I love to proclaim what He has done for us in His great love and grace.Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
Amen...this is one of the reasons why I don't interact with some of these types that continually say things that are not true. It's a waste of time and causes nothing but strife and division. I just ignore them and pray for them and leave them in the hands of the Lord. He will be faithful to all of us.
I have said this about 20x times but in order to help others reading the thread I will post again about works despite what some others are always trying to "twist" what is being said.
But I rejoice in this because it gives me another opportunity to preach Christ again......I love to proclaim what He has done for us in His great love and grace.
Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
But I rejoice in this because it gives me another opportunity to preach Christ again....
..I love to proclaim what He has done for us in His great love and grace.Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
You've copied & pasted it probably 50 times.
Romans 6.22 tells us we have been freed from SIN though right? I believe Romans 6 talks about being born again and not about being "saved" which I really do not think are the same things
Can a person accept forgiveness and deliverance at the cross and skip the tomb? We strand people at the cross by syaing everything for salvation is at the cross, but that is not true is it? Could the tomb be where the real victory comes from?
A person can mentally assent to forgiveness and deliverance at the cross, 100x and walk away from the cross each time. Until you put yourself on the cross with Christ and die with him you are just fooling people and yourself.
It is not until you are raised into newness of life with Christ that you gain power over SIN.
Deliverance from the powers of darkness and gaining forgiveness is not dying to yourself. It is simple mental assent that...
I am saved! I have forgiveness of my SIN!, I have been delivered from the powers of darkness! YAY for you and yes you do!
-but-
Are you a new creation at the cross or walking out of the tomb?
Everybody loves quoting and using Romans 6.23, but how many have really studied Romans 6.1-22?
Can a person accept forgiveness and deliverance at the cross and skip the tomb? We strand people at the cross by syaing everything for salvation is at the cross, but that is not true is it? Could the tomb be where the real victory comes from?
A person can mentally assent to forgiveness and deliverance at the cross, 100x and walk away from the cross each time. Until you put yourself on the cross with Christ and die with him you are just fooling people and yourself.
It is not until you are raised into newness of life with Christ that you gain power over SIN.
Deliverance from the powers of darkness and gaining forgiveness is not dying to yourself. It is simple mental assent that...
I am saved! I have forgiveness of my SIN!, I have been delivered from the powers of darkness! YAY for you and yes you do!
-but-
Are you a new creation at the cross or walking out of the tomb?
Everybody loves quoting and using Romans 6.23, but how many have really studied Romans 6.1-22?
You seem to be confusing ongoing sanctification with being born again.
Paul says the old man dies with Christ and is raised into newness of life, he also talks about putting off the old man and putting on the new man, he says all things are new for the old things have passed away
You continue to state we inherit eternal life through salvation and that it is an instant lock, because you get it at the cross. Jesus did not inherit eternal life until he was placed into the tomb. He says this in John 17.3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Knowing them is not simple say a prayer, easy believing mental assent. In fact, knowing them is not even considered part of salvation.
I agree...and it is in "knowing" that the old man has died on the cross and that we have been raised to newness of life in Christ where the power to be free from sin ( the noun ) comes into play. Rom. 6:1-22
The understanding that those that Christ is in have been circumcised from the body of flesh and the inner man - the new creation that is in Christ. This understanding has done more for me then any other teaching in the realm of living a holier life and recognizing the voice of the flesh which has the law of sin in it.
Being saved from sin is definitely included in the gospel message of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
So, often works-based belief systems try to dictate the fruit of the spirit and thus short circuit us believers from walking by the spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's " desires.
I firmly believe that this works-righteousness based belief system that the church has been teaching nullifies the very grace of God that is in Christ from operating like it was meant to do.
The preaching that we too have been crucified with Christ on the cross and that we too have been raised up with Him is paramount in growing up in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The understanding that those that Christ is in have been circumcised from the body of flesh and the inner man - the new creation that is in Christ. This understanding has done more for me then any other teaching in the realm of living a holier life and recognizing the voice of the flesh which has the law of sin in it.
Being saved from sin is definitely included in the gospel message of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
So, often works-based belief systems try to dictate the fruit of the spirit and thus short circuit us believers from walking by the spirit so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's " desires.
I firmly believe that this works-righteousness based belief system that the church has been teaching nullifies the very grace of God that is in Christ from operating like it was meant to do.
The preaching that we too have been crucified with Christ on the cross and that we too have been raised up with Him is paramount in growing up in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
