Not By Works

[mailmandan]

After reading all this ...all I can say is...... Salvation is Gift ...Not a Reward

Amen! Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God. (AMPC)

 

[Meggido]

Amen...it is the GIFT of GOD, NOT of WORKS lest any man should BOAST........a GIFT cannot be earned or worked for......by it's very nature it is FREE

which also means it can be exchanged or returned by the receiver.....before we jump hear me out.

Exchanging or returning the free gift is not losing it, or working for it to keep it.

Romans 1.23 talks about exchanging the glory of God for something else. Exchanging the gift of salvation for a false doctrine happens all the time. This could be someone who just had mental assent for sure, but I have seen this happen to men I knew who were deep in the faith.

Returning the free gift is likewise not losing it or working to keep it, returning the gift means you walk away from him totally...God does not chase after people, Jesus did not go after the rich young ruler, he let him go.

Just my own .02 cents.....I do not believe one keeps or loses salvation. I do believe that free choice is part of the overall process and if we have free choice to join into relationship with him, we also have free choice to walk away from him....

There is no works involved in keeping or losing or in either scenario. The free choice is yours...

 

[Grace777x70]

Faith and Obedience are forever linked. When you understand that, you truly understand your scriptures posted above.

True obedience is believing in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and not a works-based false doctrine. It's called "being obedient to the faith ".

Nice dodging of what Paul was actually saying about being justified in all the scriptures that were given out.

Name every commandment that we need "to do" in order to be saved. Earlier you posted Rev 19:7 which talked about those that do the commandments.

Name right now every commandment we must keep. Do not leave one out because according to your religion - our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell if they don't "do the commandments". So "knowing every thing we must do is a handy dandy thing to know."


Please tell the Christian world here every thing they must do in order to be saved. Don't leave one out because according to you - our eternal destination is at stake based on these "commandments we must do".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. James said the following:

James 2
[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

james said faith minus works is dead, in that way, we are also justified by works.

james did not contradict Paul, again, you can. OT save yourself by 1 work, but you can prove you have a dead faith by not doing 1 work,, end of storu

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The person who "liked" your post. "Workers for" ---- sound familiar?

He never judged people that believe in works alone, now your a slanderer, he judged works of any type for salvation . So you want t repent, or continue to destroy your credibility

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And then have a look at the context of what James was saying in the rest of the James 2 passage. And see how "konked" it gets by trying to substitute your interpretation. Lol

So faith plus how many wof rise did James say we must do? Waiting patiently for you to figure that out with James own words.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Harmonise this.

1 John 3v7
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

all of gods children practice righteousness. Why do you think they would not? Do you deny the power of God, shame on you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If that was descriptive, then there would be no need to take heed that anyone deceives them. Not so? It would not be possible to be deceived, since the impossibility of not doing righteously wouldn't exist.

So the words here betray your assertions above.

So so when John said a person born of God does not sin, he was mistaken.

wow you cut the cake

 

[UnderGrace]

Sorry I cannot agree, not if a person has been justified by God because...

We cannot choose to undo the decree of the Judge so the free will/ volition argument is moot. (Romans 5)

That works are needed to maintain justification is moot, since no one is declared half innocent.

We are declared innocent by the work of Christ not our own.

We come to God on His terms (that is believing completely that we cannot save ourselves and Jesus did it all). He gives us the gift of salvation.

He then declares us justified;
• It is a righteousness that comes from God
• It is an objective, completed righteousness
• It is a righteousness accomplished outside of and apart from man/woman
• It is a gift
• It is given apart from works
• It is imputed
• It is given to the ungodly
• It is received by faith based on the work of Jesus
• It is the Person (Jesus) and obedience of Christ in His work of atonement
• It is given as a result of union with Christ

which also means it can be exchanged or returned by the receiver.....before we jump hear me out.

Exchanging or returning the free gift is not losing it, or working for it to keep it.

Romans 1.23 talks about exchanging the glory of God for something else. Exchanging the gift of salvation for a false doctrine happens all the time. This could be someone who just had mental assent for sure, but I have seen this happen to men I knew who were deep in the faith.

Returning the free gift is likewise not losing it or working to keep it, returning the gift means you walk away from him totally...God does not chase after people, Jesus did not go after the rich young ruler, he let him go.

Just my own .02 cents.....I do not believe one keeps or loses salvation. I do believe that free choice is part of the overall process and if we have free choice to join into relationship with him, we also have free choice to walk away from him....

There is no works involved in keeping or losing or in either scenario. The free choice is yours...

 

[Meggido]

Sorry I cannot agree, not if a person has been justified by God because...

We cannot choose to undo the decree of the Judge so the free will/ volition argument is moot. (Romans 5)

That works are needed to maintain justification is moot, since no one is declared half innocent.

We are declared innocent by the work of Christ not our own.

We come to God on His terms (that is believing completely that we cannot save ourselves and Jesus did it all). He gives us the gift of salvation.

He then declares us justified;
• It is a righteousness that comes from God
• It is an objective, completed righteousness
• It is a righteousness accomplished outside of and apart from man/woman
• It is a gift
• It is given apart from works
• It is imputed
• It is given to the ungodly
• It is received by faith based on the work of Jesus
• It is the Person (Jesus) and obedience of Christ in His work of atonement
• It is given as a result of union with Christ

Stop tuning my words around, I never said works was involved in keeping or losing salvation and you are suggesting I did.

I never said free will, you did, I said free choice that is much different than free will

Yes it is received by faith.... personal faith, not God or Jesus's faith....personal faith. Many might disagree with that but I will not go to war to prove anything.

Have you ever returned a gift? ever? I do not need a another tie, I do not like the way the tie looks on me....I am giving the tie back with nothing expected in return...

How can you call God a covenant God until it comes to him keeping you in relationship. God wants relationship but he is not goign t chase after it, is he?

 

[UnderGrace]

Not turning your words around.

When a person has accepted the payment of the debt (all sins past, present and future) by someone else (Jesus), a person cannot choose to owe a debt again if the debt has been paid.

The judge makes the decree you are innocent, there is no debt owing, someone else has made the full payment and you have accepted the full payment.

You cannot choose to make yourself self guilty again or owe the same debt again when you have been declared innocent of all debts. That is illogical.

Justification is a legal standing before God, it is not about our choice it is about His declaration.

Stop tuning my words around, I never said works was involved in keeping or losing salvation and you are suggesting I did.

I never said free will, you did, I said free choice that is much different than free will

Yes it is received by faith.... personal faith, not God or Jesus's faith....personal faith. Many might disagree with that but I will not go to war to prove anything.

Have you ever returned a gift? ever? I do not need a another tie, I do not like the way the tie looks on me....I am giving the tie back with nothing expected in return...

How can you call God a covenant God until it comes to him keeping you in relationship. God wants relationship but he is not goign t chase after it, is he?

 

[Meggido]

Not turning your words around.

When a person has accepted the payment of the debt (all sins past, present and future) by someone else (Jesus), a person cannot choose to owe a debt again if the debt has been paid.

The judge makes the decree you are innocent, there is no debt owing, someone else has made the full payment and you have accepted the full payment.

You cannot choose to make yourself self guilty again or owe the same debt again when you have been declared innocent of all debts. That is illogical.

Justification is a legal standing before God, it is not about our choice it is about His declaration.

We see it differently, but thank you for being civil and cordial. I agree with what you said here about Justification, but we are talking past that.

You seem to be suggesting election and predestination and that there is no free individual chose in coming to God. If that is the case, then that is where we are different. God is and always will be a covenant God and will not take you hostage once he elects you as his own. If he did he would be unjust to his own laws.

 

[UnderGrace]

I absolutely believe we have a choice to make when the gift and the debt owing is explained to us, we can choose to accept or deny, believe or not believe.

God accepts our choice and that is that.
We have to accept the fact that this is a convenant that is not among equals, but God and man.

Noah choose to enter the ark and God sealed the door shut.

We see it differently, but thank you for being civil and cordial. I agree with what you said here about Justification, but we are talking past that.

You seem to be suggesting election and predestination and that there is no free individual chose in coming to God. If that is the case, then that is where we are different. God is and always will be a covenant God and will not take you hostage once he elects you as his own. If he did he would be unjust to his own laws.

 

[UnderGrace]

Sin was received via Adam as a gift, we did nothing to earn it and we cannot out will or out choose our sin nature.

The New Adam gives us a New gift, and again we cannot out will or out earn the gift once we receive it, absolutely it is His work we cannot undo His work.

It had to been done this way as God's perfect plan, otherwise the New Adam (Jesus) would not have been able to undo the first gift of sin via the first Adam.

We see it differently, but thank you for being civil and cordial. I agree with what you said here about Justification, but we are talking past that.

You seem to be suggesting election and predestination and that there is no free individual chose in coming to God. If that is the case, then that is where we are different. God is and always will be a covenant God and will not take you hostage once he elects you as his own. If he did he would be unjust to his own laws.

 

[stonesoffire]

So we are spirit men and women. So what was Moses and Elijah and Jesus?
What about Paul and the apostles?

Is this the idea we are now eternal spirit beings who can never die, little gods
with creative power, to bring things into existance exnihilo?

To those who believe it, I say create something then and walk on water.
It is one thing to claim you have transcended mortality another to prove it
is real. I have heard people claim they can control the weather this way.

You misunderstand. OT, the power was upon. Paul, and all in the body of Christ...both within and without.

Little gods? I don't say that Peter. But, words do have creative power. You can encourage or tear down someone with your words. And we speak faith don't we? It's not silent.

 

[PeterJens]

You misunderstand. OT, the power was upon. Paul, and all in the body of Christ...both within and without.

Little gods? I don't say that Peter. But, words do have creative power. You can encourage or tear down someone with your words. And we speak faith don't we? It's not silent.

I miss-understand which point?
There is a difference between the OT and the NT. It appears to be the indwellling Holy Spirit
Before Christ came the Holy Spirit fell occasionally on people, but never indwelt them.

After the cross, the Holy Spirit had communion in the believer. It was this anointing which the
disciples took as the sign He was blessing gentiles in the same way He blessed Jews.

Being made into a new creation appears to be a transformation of our hearts and souls, but not
something that comes from outside but something that happens internally. We become the temple
of the Holy Spirit, pure, Holy, undefiled. The inner conflict is how we cleanse and stay in a state
of purity.

 

[FranC]

Hey Fran, First let me say that sometimes we get so wrapped up with the passion of our thoughts, and the desire to have the other person see it our way, that we forget that primarily we are called to love one another. Without that, as 1 Corinthians 13 tells us, EVERYTHING else is worthless. So I do love you Fran, and am certain others here do as well.

I don't think you're post here is terribly off the mark. We DO get a new heart. We don't have our lost heart fixed. And that's really the point. Following Christ is natural for His children. It's who we are. We don't have to force it. It's innate in the new creation we have become.

An apple tree will naturally bear apples. It does not have to work at what it does naturally.

It's so important that we realize that OUR FRUITS (of the Holy Spirit) result in good works, and that good works NEVER result in bearing fruit. Getting that backwards, I believe, is what is at the heart of those who want to receive the fruits by doing their work.

The reason I mentioned the Bible translation, is because the verse you emphasized had a clearly different meaning than every other translation I could find, Here it is again:

"UNLESS YOU DO EVEN BETTER THAN THE PHARISSES IN THE MATTER OF LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, YOU WILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ENTERNG THE KINGDOM.
Mathew 5:20"

Can you tell me what translation that is from? Be blessed, and have a great day.

Hi PennEd

What do you mean I'm not too far off?
You mean I MUST agree with you???
NO. I agree with what my bible tells me and it does not teach me eternal securiy.

As far as loving one another, I, and those who think eternal security is an incorrect doctrine DO show love for Others.
Oddly enough, those that believe in eternal security do NOT show love. I've been told on numerous occasions that I'm going to hell. That's another question I have --- why does this Group ALWAYS speak about hell? Maybe they're worried they're going there and so must make up this false doctrine of eternal security??

I do agree with everything you've said above.
Here's the difference between you and me:

I'm not AFRAID to say that God DEMANDS that we follow HIS commandments.
YOU, otoh, cannot simply state this but must beat around the bush ---- I don't really understand why.

DOES GOD OR DOESN'T GOD REQUIRE US TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS?

It's a yes or no answer.


As far as Mathew 5:20
You'll note that there are no quotation marks or mention of the version.
This means that I went through verse by verse with my own words to explain my understanding to the person I was posting t.

As I said, I use either the NASB or the NIV, I also have the KJV, the NKJV, the Living Bible, and Others.

Here's my Whole post again --- you'll see what I mean.
I just want to add that it's nice to talk about scripture -- not call each other names and say one Group is the plentious Group and going to hell. This is terrible on a Christian site where we are to love each other.

My original post with Mathew 5:20:

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Hello PennEd

Doing OK. Could be better. Could be worse. My best wishes to you and yours also.

I'm rather shocked at how scripture is not understood.

Let's start at Mathew 5:20, as you wish.

Jesus was saying how He did not come to abolish the Law.
He says that he came to fulfill the Law. Fulfill means to make complete. I'm sure you now this.
Mathew 5:17

So, how is the Law made complete?
By moving it from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26

Or, as someone here has stated, from the external to the internal.


Not the smalles stroke or letter will pass from the Law. IOW, we are not to trivialize the Law - it's as important as it has ALWAYS been. God did NOT give the commadments and then decided to take them away.

God is the same Yesterday, today and Tomorrow.
Hebrews 13:8

Whoever ANNULS one of the LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS, and also teaches Others to do the same, will e called the least in the Kingdom
Mathew 5:19a


But who hold these commandments and teachings in high regard, will find Honor in the Kingdom.
Mathew 5:19b


UNLESS YOU DO EVEN BETTER THAN THE PHARISSES IN THE MATTER OF LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, YOU WILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ENTERNG THE KINGDOM.
Mathew 5:20


verse 20 is saying that we MUST DO BETTER than the Pharisees.
We MUST move the commandments from our mind to our hearts.

Then Jesus goes on to show us HOW we are to do this.

Now lust goes beyong physical action, but becomes a HEART action or matter.
Mathew 5:27-28


Is this difficult to understand?

Please take the time to read Mathew again and understand it in context, as you yourself have said.
Jesus did NOT make following the commandments easier, He made it MORE DIFFICULT.

Someone else on this thread had the same idea as you.
It's incorrect if the bible is read at face value and not made to say what WE might want it to say.

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You'll notice that the Whole post uses my own words.

 

[FranC]

Don't you think we should know every one of these commandments? What would you tell someone after posting a scripture saying that they need to do the commandments?

Don't you think it's important to know every one because if you don't "do" one - in some people's religion God sends His beloved children to hell.

Grace,
This thread zips along too fast for me.

But stop saying really SILLY things. I'm surprised at you!!

First of all, ALL MEN know the natural Law. And I know you know what that is.
For those reading along, it's what MAN NATURALLY knows is wrong.

We all know murdering another human is wrong --- we do not have to be taught this.


As far as how to learn all the commandments:

First of all, anybody interested in Learning the Christian faith will be reading their bible and will know all the instructions Jesus left us with. Just read Mathew and John. And ALL the other letters as well.

Second of all, Jesus left us with the two GREAT COMMANDMENTS.
Love God
Love your neighbor as yourself.

THIS TWO COMMANDMENTS COVER ALL THE REST.

You and Mailmandan do show the love of God.
Others here DO NOT.

For starters they could start obeying the TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS.


So, let's stop arguing and fighting with persons whose heart tells them to obey God.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS.
WE ALL MUST OBEY GOD.

Mathew 5:45

 

[PeterJens]

The ten commandments are not difficult to remember and recite.
Not sure how this can be compared to a dictionary.
Love God with no other gods before him
Do not make a graven image
Do not take the Lords name in vain
Keep the sabbath
Honour your parents
Do not murder
Do commit adultery
Do not steal
Do not bear false witness
Do not covet.


Are there any principles here that are not difficult to keep?
Have we not repented of sins involved in these things?

we can keep all these, and still be seen as a sinner.


of course, number 1, (if we are honest) should stop us in our tracks. as if we think about it, we can not even keep this one perfecty

I was thinking about the above statement.
Love God, have no other Gods before Him.
The proposition here is we can never do this.

Yet Moses, a large part of Israel, the prophets, the apostles all did exactly that without sinning.
So I would suggest this is an example of hyper-legalism.

Hyper legalism says you are disqualified because an argument can be constructed to show you do
not love God because x, not you love God and show it by y.

It is the spirit of being judgmental and pedantic which is driven by a desire not to love an accept
despite flaws or problems, but to reject and show people as failures.

Listen to satan arguing with God about Job.

"Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
Job 1:9-11

God is not pedantic, but looks at the truth in a persons life.
Security if God is not based on pedantically passing an exam, it is about love, a real desire
in ones heart to walk in love and righteousness.

Samson and Delilah. Samson was true to God but loved Delilah even though she betrayed
him. Now you could say Samson was not in Gods hand, a blessing or walking correctly.
Yet God blessed him and gave him victory over the Philistines.

So the hyper-legalists know they cannot keep their version of the law, but love and acceptance
through the cross works differently than their OCD version of conforming.

God accepts and blesses flawed individuals, but they have love and obedience for Him.
It is obvious people find this reality hard to grasp, and only if they create a lawless version of the
faith do they begin to understand the cross and grace.

It makes sense the law means nitpicking, failure, insecurity and rejection.
Eternal security means safety, acceptance and knowledge of being home.

But for me this is a distortion founded on a lack of appreciation of what love and evil are and how
free will and choice comes into play.

These faith positions are more about us, and our perception of what God accepts and rejects rather
than our ability to listen to Him and see the examples He has given us.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

Don't you think we should know every one of these commandments? What would you tell someone after posting a scripture saying that they need to do the commandments?

Don't you think it's important to know every one because if you don't "do" one - in some people's religion God sends His beloved children to hell.

Works-based religions all deal in fear and manipulation of the scriptures and in effect are nullifying the grace of God in Christ that is needed for His fruit to bear in our lives like it was meant to.



This is an important thing to have answered because works-based salvationists tell people "to do the commandments" or else according to their religion God our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell.

Name every commandment that we must do to obtain and maintain eternal life. Don't make them nebulous ( which means as in a cloud of haziness and vague ).

Because if our eternal destination is based on what "we do" - then we need to know what every one of those commandments are. That's a handy dandy piece of information to have.

( In reality - 1 John 3:23 - tells us exactly what they are in the New Covenant )