Not By Works
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E
Well then we are in agreement,
God does demand we obey him but that does not mean we will be perfect, we will still sin, that's why we need grace,
obeying him will not save us, keep us saved, or maintain our salvation, but your right, God does want and even demand us to obey him
however, what does john say? Those born of God can't sin, because they were born of God. Those born of God do not need taught, because they know all things (concerning the gospel) who are unlike the sinner who has never seen or known God
again, those are the apostle johns words not mine, so what is the argument Fran?
We do do not love sin, it it against our nature, when we sin, it is not normal, it hurts, unlike before. Doing good is normal,and it is why we love to do good,
again, you do not know us Fran, your fighting what you have been tight,p about us like Peter does, not what is reality
P
'Justified' is being used by Paul according to one definition of the word and James is using it according to another definition of the word. Being legally justified before God happens solely on the basis of having faith in God's forgiveness. That's what Paul is talking about. But that's not the only definition of 'justified'. Being justified also means being shown to be righteous. That's what James is talking about. You must be justified according to both definitions in order to be saved on the Last Day.
Paul also speaks of the two ways to be justified. In fact, in Galatians 5:6 he says that the faith that justifies is the faith that loves. He's saying that the faith that makes you legally righteous before God (all by itself) is also the faith that will then be seen in love towards others.
Galatians 5:6 NIV
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
The problem I see is Christians thinking their dead faith is the faith that Paul says justifies, and they take false comfort in it thinking that kind of faith is going to save them. If you possess the faith that justifies it will be seen in what you do. If your faith has not changed you into a person growing up into the fruit of the Spirit you have a dead faith that can not save you. Thus the truth that a man is justified BOTH by faith and by works. Justification by faith makes you righteous in God's sight legally speaking. Justification by works shows you to have that declaration of legal righteousness. One without the other is not a genuine salvation experience.
Paul also speaks of the two ways to be justified. In fact, in Galatians 5:6 he says that the faith that justifies is the faith that loves. He's saying that the faith that makes you legally righteous before God (all by itself) is also the faith that will then be seen in love towards others.
Galatians 5:6 NIV
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
The problem I see is Christians thinking their dead faith is the faith that Paul says justifies, and they take false comfort in it thinking that kind of faith is going to save them. If you possess the faith that justifies it will be seen in what you do. If your faith has not changed you into a person growing up into the fruit of the Spirit you have a dead faith that can not save you. Thus the truth that a man is justified BOTH by faith and by works. Justification by faith makes you righteous in God's sight legally speaking. Justification by works shows you to have that declaration of legal righteousness. One without the other is not a genuine salvation experience.
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A
We are saved by faith FOR works.
NOT BY faith AND works.
Faith is Jesus is the root.
Works are the fruit.
Mixing the two gives you a false gospel because you take your trust and faith from Jesus and place it upon your own actions, which fosters pride and self confidence.
Instead of seeing how good works comes from Jesus liv8my within you, which allows you to stay humble and give glory to God.
We learn to forgive others even our enemies because God forgave us even when we did not deserve it. His daily mercy and grace is all that keeps us on the right path.
All God's born again children have a period of no visible fruitfulness because they are healing and inwardly growing. However that doesn't mean they are not saved. God sees the heart and people underestimate the power of prayer.
Some people may never grow beyond milk but most will be lead to the meat.
Before someone gets huffy, I will give an example of someone who may never go beyond milk: a mentally ill person who only seeks to praise God.
They may never do "good works" that meet some Pharisees standards but they can pray and praise God.
Every child of God has spiritual gifts and a ministry within the body of Christ. However God will prepare them in His time. Moses was 80 before he was called. Jesus didn't start his public ministry until he was 30. Noah was 500.
Before Saul of tartus meeting with Jesus he captured Christians to be killed.
God can change folks and use them for His purpose.
The requirement for salvation is by Faith not works.
After folks are saved BY GOD, He will train them and give them their ministry and show them how they can function as part of the body of Christ.
This happens after salvation, not before.nor is good works the cause of anyone being saved.
NOT BY faith AND works.
Faith is Jesus is the root.
Works are the fruit.
Mixing the two gives you a false gospel because you take your trust and faith from Jesus and place it upon your own actions, which fosters pride and self confidence.
Instead of seeing how good works comes from Jesus liv8my within you, which allows you to stay humble and give glory to God.
We learn to forgive others even our enemies because God forgave us even when we did not deserve it. His daily mercy and grace is all that keeps us on the right path.
All God's born again children have a period of no visible fruitfulness because they are healing and inwardly growing. However that doesn't mean they are not saved. God sees the heart and people underestimate the power of prayer.
Some people may never grow beyond milk but most will be lead to the meat.
Before someone gets huffy, I will give an example of someone who may never go beyond milk: a mentally ill person who only seeks to praise God.
They may never do "good works" that meet some Pharisees standards but they can pray and praise God.
Every child of God has spiritual gifts and a ministry within the body of Christ. However God will prepare them in His time. Moses was 80 before he was called. Jesus didn't start his public ministry until he was 30. Noah was 500.
Before Saul of tartus meeting with Jesus he captured Christians to be killed.
God can change folks and use them for His purpose.
The requirement for salvation is by Faith not works.
After folks are saved BY GOD, He will train them and give them their ministry and show them how they can function as part of the body of Christ.
This happens after salvation, not before.nor is good works the cause of anyone being saved.
Here's a summary teaching of Romans 2
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152897-romans-2-lets-get-into.html
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152897-romans-2-lets-get-into.html
Well AMEN and Praise the Lord !!
There are two methods to express justification and sanctification.
Some churches teach Justification as the born again experience. Being declared just by God. We are now right with God.
Epesians 2:8
They then teach Progressive Justification as that continuing work that is in cooperation with God, to keep one saved throughout their life. God requires "works" from us, or whatever one would want to call them, and we must respond to God's requirements.
Instead some churches call this the Sanctification process. it is a life-long process and ends on the day we die.
This is why we say
We Were Saved
We Are Being Saved
We Will Be Saved
A bit of confusion is created because Paul used the term Justification to mean both justification and sanctification. The church later clarified these two terms by means of theological study.
I see no reason why any born-again believer who is trusting in Christ for their salvation, AND in their sanctification process, should have difficulty declaring same.
There are two methods to express justification and sanctification.
Some churches teach Justification as the born again experience. Being declared just by God. We are now right with God.
Epesians 2:8
They then teach Progressive Justification as that continuing work that is in cooperation with God, to keep one saved throughout their life. God requires "works" from us, or whatever one would want to call them, and we must respond to God's requirements.
Instead some churches call this the Sanctification process. it is a life-long process and ends on the day we die.
This is why we say
We Were Saved
We Are Being Saved
We Will Be Saved
A bit of confusion is created because Paul used the term Justification to mean both justification and sanctification. The church later clarified these two terms by means of theological study.
I see no reason why any born-again believer who is trusting in Christ for their salvation, AND in their sanctification process, should have difficulty declaring same.
A
I see you are back..great!
Name every commandment that we need "to do" in order to be saved. Earlier you posted Rev 19:7 which talked about those that do the commandments.
Name right now every commandment we must keep. Do not leave one out because according to your religion - our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell if they don't "do the commandments". So "knowing every thing we must do is a handy dandy thing to know."
Please tell the Christian world here every thing they must do in order to be saved. Don't leave one out because according to you - our eternal destination is at stake based on these "commandments we must do".
And in your religion our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell so you better tell us every commandment - don't leave any one out or we'll go to hell according to your religion.
I like to take religions for test runs to see what is really in them..Thanks.
This is only around the 5th time this has been asked. It can't be that hard seeing that our eternal destination is based on "doing all the commandments" as you state.
Everyone confuses Justification and Salvation.
Continued Justification (being in right standing with a Holy God) leads to your Salvation (on the Day of the Lord).
Sanctification is the living out by faith what the Lord's will is. Some would call this the walk of faith (Romans 4v12). This includes obedience and the fruit of obedience is the Fruit of the Spirit and good works. Without Sanctification (Holiness), nobody will see the Lord.
Continued Justification (being in right standing with a Holy God) leads to your Salvation (on the Day of the Lord).
Sanctification is the living out by faith what the Lord's will is. Some would call this the walk of faith (Romans 4v12). This includes obedience and the fruit of obedience is the Fruit of the Spirit and good works. Without Sanctification (Holiness), nobody will see the Lord.
Look, I have nothing against you personally....other than what you espouse and your complete disregard for the magnificent grace of God that out bounds ALL of our sin and the positioning of Grace that ALL believers find themselves in....
In the GRACE you ARE having BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH and that NOT of YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT of GOD and NOT of WORKS lest ANY MAN should boast....
In the GRACE you ARE having BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH and that NOT of YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT of GOD and NOT of WORKS lest ANY MAN should boast....
Falling from the faith (as can be seen in the linked thread here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152309-falling-away-faith-its-possible.html) means that if you fail to believe in Jesus Christ, who once redeemed you, then you are no longer justified before the Lord. Because Justification is first predicated on Faith.
Saved, justified and sanctified positionally ALL come with the initial faith that acknowledges the work of Christ on the Cross....ALL three are connected and you cannot have any one without the other 2.......
Saved by faith renders one justified before GOD and sanctified positonally in Christ as a child of God<---the bible teaches this and not the foolishness listed above in post 13433
Saved by faith renders one justified before GOD and sanctified positonally in Christ as a child of God<---the bible teaches this and not the foolishness listed above in post 13433
Continued justification???
It is Christ that justifies - we don't justify ourselves. That is a works-righteousness false gospel. No wonder people believe our loving Father throws His children in hell. My goodness - what a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
Romans 8:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Romans 4:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
This "continued justification" false doctrine violate the gospel message. In "it" - the gospel - the righteousness of God is revealed.
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
It is Christ that justifies - we don't justify ourselves. That is a works-righteousness false gospel. No wonder people believe our loving Father throws His children in hell. My goodness - what a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
Romans 8:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Romans 4:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
This "continued justification" false doctrine violate the gospel message. In "it" - the gospel - the righteousness of God is revealed.
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
That is complete religious nonsense and it is a false doctrine of the devil as the readers will see when they read "all" the posts in that thread.
Our loving Father does not send His beloved children to hell. That is a doctrine of demons and it is an anti-Christ belief system based on their own self-righteousness that denies the righteousness and work of Christ.
Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Our loving Father does not send His beloved children to hell. That is a doctrine of demons and it is an anti-Christ belief system based on their own self-righteousness that denies the righteousness and work of Christ.
Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
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