Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113

I see you are back..great!


Name every commandment that we need "to do" in order to be saved. Earlier you posted Rev 19:7 which talked about those that do the commandments.

Name right now every commandment we must keep. Do not leave one out because according to your religion - our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell if they don't "do the commandments". So "knowing every thing we must do is a handy dandy thing to know."


Please tell the Christian world here every thing they must do in order to be saved. Don't leave one out because according to you - our eternal destination is at stake based on these "commandments we must do".

And in your religion our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell so you better tell us every commandment - don't leave any one out or we'll go to hell according to your religion.

I like to take religions for test runs to see what is really in them..Thanks.

This is only around the 5th time this has been asked. It can't be that hard seeing that our eternal destination is based on "doing all the commandments" as you state.
Matthew 19:16-22New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[SUP][a][/SUP] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[SUP][b][/SUP] No one is good but One, that is, God.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ [SUP]19 [/SUP]‘Honor your father and your mother,’[SUP][d][/SUP] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”[SUP][e][/SUP]

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.[SUP][f][/SUP] What do I still lack?”

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


Romans 3
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


[h=1]John 13:34-35New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [SUP]34 [/SUP]A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [SUP]35 [/SUP]By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
 
W

willybob

Guest
the 11th commandment : thou shallt do no works of obedience to serve the Lord thy God, :confused:
 
W

willybob

Guest
We already know you embrace falsehood....so no biggie that you would embrace her false statement....Hebrews states it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance....

Either we are secure in Christ or no one makes it as all fail and sin at some point....including you

do you hide yourself in a basement arguing for sin 24/7 ...
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Look, I have nothing against you personally....other than what you espouse and your complete disregard for the magnificent grace of God that out bounds ALL of our sin and the positioning of Grace that ALL believers find themselves in....

In the GRACE you ARE having BEEN SAVED OUT OF FAITH and that NOT of YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT of GOD and NOT of WORKS lest ANY MAN should boast....
Agreed.

But what do you have against DECLARING, that works are necessary?

I know you won't agree with this, but they ARE necessary for CONTINUED salvation.

If we don't do good works, we have DEAD FAITH.
James 2:17
James 2:20
Galatians 5:13-15
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Matthew 19:16-22New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[SUP][a][/SUP] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[SUP][b][/SUP] No one is good but One, that is, God.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ [SUP]19 [/SUP]‘Honor your father and your mother,’[SUP][d][/SUP] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”[SUP][e][/SUP]

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.[SUP][f][/SUP] What do I still lack?”

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


Romans 3
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


John 13:34-35New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]34 [/SUP]A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [SUP]35 [/SUP]By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

So I see you do not rightly divide the words of Jesus.

Do we tell people today in the New Covenant that they need to keep the law of Moses when they ask "What must I do to be saved?"

No of course not.

We tell them this in the New Covenant.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

My goodness..no wonder you believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell - you actually have very little understanding of what the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ really is. It's no wonder you teach a false doctrine of works for justification and salvation.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113

So I see you do not rightly divide the words of Jesus.

Do we tell people today in the New Covenant that they need to keep the law of Moses when they ask "What must I do to be saved?"

No of course not.

We tell them this in the New Covenant.

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

My goodness..no wonder you believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell - you actually have very little understanding of what the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ really is. It's no wonder you teach a false doctrine of works for justification and salvation.
Lol. Your question was which commandments, to which I replied with ONLY the words of Jesus.

And you say my theology is wrong?

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with Jesus.

NOT A SINGLE WORD ON THAT POST WAS MINE :) BUT THE LORD'S.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Romans 2
9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

*****

Sacrificial lamb for the sins of the people is part of the Law.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0

I see you are back..great!


Name every commandment that we need "to do" in order to be saved. Earlier you posted Rev 19:7 which talked about those that do the commandments.

Name right now every commandment we must keep. Do not leave one out because according to your religion - our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell if they don't "do the commandments". So "knowing every thing we must do is a handy dandy thing to know."


Please tell the Christian world here every thing they must do in order to be saved. Don't leave one out because according to you - our eternal destination is at stake based on these "commandments we must do".

And in your religion our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell so you better tell us every commandment - don't leave any one out or we'll go to hell according to your religion.

I like to take religions for test runs to see what is really in them..Thanks.

This is only around the 5th time this has been asked. It can't be that hard seeing that our eternal destination is based on "doing all the commandments" as you state.
Talk of hell again.
WHY?????????????

I don't understand this.

We must follow all the commandments.
But we don't.
So?

God never sent anyone to that dark place because they failed to follow every commandment. Moses made God angry but he's in heaven. God is a loving God. He sees our heart.

Every Christian here must do this:

They must be a part of the new and everlasting covenant.
It states that those who are IN CHRIST will be protected by Him. HE is their Law. The Law is in their heart. HE will help them to live a good life. Those that love Jesus also wish to please Him. AND, we must remain in the New Covenant. God will not force us to remain there if we do not want to be a part of it.

Does this mean they will be perfect?
No one is perfect. I don't think anyone here is saying this.

I do see a difference between saying this and saying that we should just give up since we are always going to sin.
I think it's this "giving up" attitude that some here do not like, myself included.

We're to do our best. The Holy Spirit will help us.
IF we sin, and we will, our sin will be forgiven. No problem.

1 John 1:5-10
1 John 2:1

John is saying that he is writing so that we may not sin.
BUT IF WE DO SIN, ..... this means John knows that eventually we will, although we should try not to...
THEN we have an advocate with the Father.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
Romans 2
9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

*****

Sacrificial lamb for the sins of the people is part of the Law.
Romans 2New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Righteous Judgment


2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.


  • We know from 1 Corinthians 5 v12-13 [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
  • How are we to reconcile Romans 2v1 and 1Corinthians 5v12-13 ?
  • The Corinthians discourse makes allowance for judging those within the Church, but not those on the outside.
  • But the judgement upon the church needs to be according to righteousness, and not hypocrisy.
  • This can be seen in the following scripture of Jesus’ words: Matthew 7v3-5 [SUP]3 [/SUP]And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
  • So Matthew 7v5 means that we are NOT to leave the speck in a brothers eye. We are in fact to help them. But helping them, when you yourself are steeped in sin with a plank in your own eye is the height of hypocrisy.
  • And that is how we reconcile Romans 2v1 and 1 Corinthians 5v12-13. The judgement is according to righteousness.
  • The Romans 2v1 above caters specifically for this person within the church who judges others (whether it be in the church or outside of the church); who himself/herself is also enslaved to that very sin.




[SUP]2 [/SUP]But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?


  • Who is this letter written to? It is written to the church in Rome, whom Paul calls to be saints; Romans 1v7a [SUP]7 [/SUP]To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
  • It is silly to assume that the above judgement is against those outside the church. The letter is not written to the outsiders but to those inside the church. It is equally silly to assume an outsider will stumble across these scriptures.
  • We have clear evidence according to scriptures that God will not excuse the hypocrisy of His church. Just like He would not excuse the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who instructed in one way, but did the exact opposite.



[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?


  • The above could just as easily been written as “Do you despise His Grace, not knowing that the Grace of God leads you to Repentance.
  • The component parts of God’s grace, of which goodness, forbearance, longsuffering are part – is MEANT to lead you to REPENTANCE.
  • How long will you tolerate your sins?
  • How long will it take you to change your mind about sin?
  • When will you use the free will which Christ purchased for you though the Cross and Resurrection to choose righteousness?


[SUP]5 [/SUP]But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,


  • Yet God says that his church has hardness and impenitent hearts
  • Impenitent means “unrepentant” - not feeling shame or regret about one's actions or attitudes.
  • Hardness – not allowing or adhering to correction.
  • And this attitude has a “payday”. For those in the church choosing this direction, there is a day of wrath.
  • In this day of wrath there will be a “Revelation of the Righteous Judgement of God”. What does this mean? It means that there are those in the church who have no-cooking clue as to this part of God’s nature. That He is a righteous God and will not condone willful sin and transgressions within the Church. He may be patient in forbearance (verse 4) not wanting any to perish, but there is a Day when the Judgement comes to the house of God.
  • Will you yet not repent? Will you still remain hardened? Church wake up. You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP]eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, [SUP]9 [/SUP]tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; [SUP]10 [/SUP]but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no partiality with God.


  • We all will be judged by our deeds.
  • For those here who are so fearful that “any” deed is “works” – you need to read these passages again carefully.
  • Eternal life is reserved for those who (1) continue patiently – keeping the faith (2) do good works (3) look forward to our inheritance and glorification. We see here that faith and good works are inexorably linked. As it is throughout scripture.
  • Hell is reserved for those who are (1) self-seeking (2) disobedient
  • This is as applicable to the Jew as it is to the Gentile (Greek). And we know that there are both Jews and Gentiles in the Church under the new covenant. God will not judge on this matter in one way for the Jew and in another way for the Gentile. You will receive according to what you do above.



[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law [SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; [SUP]14 [/SUP]for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) [SUP]16 [/SUP]in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


  • For those who received the law, they stand judged by this law. For those who did not receive the law, they are judged by their consciences (knowledge of good and evil).
  • For the law is written on the hearts of his people under the new covenant: Hebrews 8v10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
  • God puts the laws on the hearts and minds of both Jew and Gentile in the new covenant.
  • The doers of the law will be justified (v13). Maybe you need to read that again. The DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED. Paul and James are in agreement: James 2v [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
  • For those who claim a divorce between faith and the law, we can see Paul writing the following in Romans 3v31 [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
  • Our consciences (“con” = with; “science” = knowledge) will either accuse us or excuse us on the day of Judgement, whereby our secrets will be laid open for all to see and Christ will judge them.
  • Will you at this point decide to Repent? Church? Are you happy to test God’s patience as per Romans 2v4 and be ready to give an account to Him as per Romans 2v5? Adam and Eve’s conscience caused them to hide from God in the garden of Eden. Their eyes were opened and they became aware of their nakedness
  • How much more will your nakedness be exposed on the day of Judgement should you decide not to repent whilst it is called TODAY.

[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Indeed[SUP][b][/SUP] you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, [SUP]20 [/SUP]an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. [SUP]21 [/SUP]You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? [SUP]23 [/SUP]You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? [SUP]24 [/SUP]For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”[SUP][c][/SUP] as it is written.


  • Being a hearer of the law is to no avail, being a teacher of the law is to no avail --- unless you are a DOER of the LAW.
  • We are not justified by the law, we are justified by Faith. Believe on Jesus Christ. And Faith is made perfect by Works. James 2v22 [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
  • Works are the evidence of Faith. See the whole of Hebrews 11 – Faith is ACTION.
  • Do you, as is written in Romans 2v23, dishonour God through breaking the law? Never lose the context --- he is writing to the Church in Rome. And in this particular instance the Jews.

[SUP]
25 [/SUP]For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.


  • For a Jew, circumcision (a cutting off of the flesh, and symbolic of the separation of living according to the flesh ) only profits a Jew if they keep the law
  • For what would the symbolic cutting off mean if this Jew were to simply follow the desires of the flesh by breaking the law. It’s like reattaching the cut away flesh.


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?


  • So if an uncircumcised man keeps the law, and by implication this means not living by the flesh and thus upholding the law, then this is the same as being counted as circumcised. This man has understood that the symbolic (physical circumcision) is not more important than the real circumcision of the heart. A separation. A Sanctification. Holiness.


[SUP]27 [/SUP]And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?


  • Hypocrisy will be judged.

[SUP]
28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


  • Those who live by the Spirit will inherit eternal life
  • Those who live by the flesh (uncircumcised in heart) will not inherit eternal life.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Who is preaching that you should give up and not right to overcome sin, tear down spiritual strongholds?

This thread is how salvation is BY FAITH IN JESUS and NOT BY WORKS.

The foundation must be Jesus alone or you build upon shifting sand and not the Rock.

Why is that so hard to understand?
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Lol. Your question was which commandments, to which I replied with ONLY the words of Jesus.

And you say my theology is wrong?

You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with Jesus.

NOT A SINGLE WORD ON THAT POST WAS MINE :) BUT THE LORD'S.

The Lord also said to a guy to go show yourself to the priest when he was healed. Do we do that today?

Do we tell people today in the New Covenant to keep the law of Moses for salvation? Of course not. My goodness man- you really need to get a revelation of the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done on the cross and resurrection.

I really encourage you to ask the Lord about the gospel and to show you what He has done. He will be faithful to you to reveal Himself - He loves you deeply and He will never leave you nor forsake you.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Here is what Paul "really" said about being justified.

Acts 13:39 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 3:28 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Romans 5:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Galatians 3:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 5:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Titus 3:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




This one is really going to hurt the workers for salvation and creating and maintaining their own justification.


Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Romans 2New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Righteous Judgment


2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.


  • We know from 1 Corinthians 5 v12-13 [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
  • How are we to reconcile Romans 2v1 and 1Corinthians 5v12-13 ?
  • The Corinthians discourse makes allowance for judging those within the Church, but not those on the outside.
  • But the judgement upon the church needs to be according to righteousness, and not hypocrisy.
  • This can be seen in the following scripture of Jesus’ words: Matthew 7v3-5 [SUP]3 [/SUP]And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
  • So Matthew 7v5 means that we are NOT to leave the speck in a brothers eye. We are in fact to help them. But helping them, when you yourself are steeped in sin with a plank in your own eye is the height of hypocrisy.
  • And that is how we reconcile Romans 2v1 and 1 Corinthians 5v12-13. The judgement is according to righteousness.
  • The Romans 2v1 above caters specifically for this person within the church who judges others (whether it be in the church or outside of the church); who himself/herself is also enslaved to that very sin.




[SUP]2 [/SUP]But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?


  • Who is this letter written to? It is written to the church in Rome, whom Paul calls to be saints; Romans 1v7a [SUP]7 [/SUP]To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
  • It is silly to assume that the above judgement is against those outside the church. The letter is not written to the outsiders but to those inside the church. It is equally silly to assume an outsider will stumble across these scriptures.
  • We have clear evidence according to scriptures that God will not excuse the hypocrisy of His church. Just like He would not excuse the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who instructed in one way, but did the exact opposite.



[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?


  • The above could just as easily been written as “Do you despise His Grace, not knowing that the Grace of God leads you to Repentance.
  • The component parts of God’s grace, of which goodness, forbearance, longsuffering are part – is MEANT to lead you to REPENTANCE.
  • How long will you tolerate your sins?
  • How long will it take you to change your mind about sin?
  • When will you use the free will which Christ purchased for you though the Cross and Resurrection to choose righteousness?


[SUP]5 [/SUP]But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,


  • Yet God says that his church has hardness and impenitent hearts
  • Impenitent means “unrepentant” - not feeling shame or regret about one's actions or attitudes.
  • Hardness – not allowing or adhering to correction.
  • And this attitude has a “payday”. For those in the church choosing this direction, there is a day of wrath.
  • In this day of wrath there will be a “Revelation of the Righteous Judgement of God”. What does this mean? It means that there are those in the church who have no-cooking clue as to this part of God’s nature. That He is a righteous God and will not condone willful sin and transgressions within the Church. He may be patient in forbearance (verse 4) not wanting any to perish, but there is a Day when the Judgement comes to the house of God.
  • Will you yet not repent? Will you still remain hardened? Church wake up. You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP]eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, [SUP]9 [/SUP]tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; [SUP]10 [/SUP]but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no partiality with God.


  • We all will be judged by our deeds.
  • For those here who are so fearful that “any” deed is “works” – you need to read these passages again carefully.
  • Eternal life is reserved for those who (1) continue patiently – keeping the faith (2) do good works (3) look forward to our inheritance and glorification. We see here that faith and good works are inexorably linked. As it is throughout scripture.
  • Hell is reserved for those who are (1) self-seeking (2) disobedient
  • This is as applicable to the Jew as it is to the Gentile (Greek). And we know that there are both Jews and Gentiles in the Church under the new covenant. God will not judge on this matter in one way for the Jew and in another way for the Gentile. You will receive according to what you do above.



[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law [SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; [SUP]14 [/SUP]for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) [SUP]16 [/SUP]in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


  • For those who received the law, they stand judged by this law. For those who did not receive the law, they are judged by their consciences (knowledge of good and evil).
  • For the law is written on the hearts of his people under the new covenant: Hebrews 8v10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
  • God puts the laws on the hearts and minds of both Jew and Gentile in the new covenant.
  • The doers of the law will be justified (v13). Maybe you need to read that again. The DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED. Paul and James are in agreement: James 2v [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
  • For those who claim a divorce between faith and the law, we can see Paul writing the following in Romans 3v31 [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
  • Our consciences (“con” = with; “science” = knowledge) will either accuse us or excuse us on the day of Judgement, whereby our secrets will be laid open for all to see and Christ will judge them.
  • Will you at this point decide to Repent? Church? Are you happy to test God’s patience as per Romans 2v4 and be ready to give an account to Him as per Romans 2v5? Adam and Eve’s conscience caused them to hide from God in the garden of Eden. Their eyes were opened and they became aware of their nakedness
  • How much more will your nakedness be exposed on the day of Judgement should you decide not to repent whilst it is called TODAY.

[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Indeed[SUP][b][/SUP] you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, [SUP]20 [/SUP]an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. [SUP]21 [/SUP]You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? [SUP]23 [/SUP]You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? [SUP]24 [/SUP]For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”[SUP][c][/SUP] as it is written.


  • Being a hearer of the law is to no avail, being a teacher of the law is to no avail --- unless you are a DOER of the LAW.
  • We are not justified by the law, we are justified by Faith. Believe on Jesus Christ. And Faith is made perfect by Works. James 2v22 [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
  • Works are the evidence of Faith. See the whole of Hebrews 11 – Faith is ACTION.
  • Do you, as is written in Romans 2v23, dishonour God through breaking the law? Never lose the context --- he is writing to the Church in Rome. And in this particular instance the Jews.

[SUP]
25 [/SUP]For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.


  • For a Jew, circumcision (a cutting off of the flesh, and symbolic of the separation of living according to the flesh ) only profits a Jew if they keep the law
  • For what would the symbolic cutting off mean if this Jew were to simply follow the desires of the flesh by breaking the law. It’s like reattaching the cut away flesh.


[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?


  • So if an uncircumcised man keeps the law, and by implication this means not living by the flesh and thus upholding the law, then this is the same as being counted as circumcised. This man has understood that the symbolic (physical circumcision) is not more important than the real circumcision of the heart. A separation. A Sanctification. Holiness.


[SUP]27 [/SUP]And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?


  • Hypocrisy will be judged.

[SUP]
28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


  • Those who live by the Spirit will inherit eternal life
  • Those who live by the flesh (uncircumcised in heart) will not inherit eternal life.
All this does not change the fact that if you don't have the Rock, you will be thrown into Hell

If you have Christ as your foundation, you will be saved even by fire a,d all your doctrines but that one be wrong because God is able to save His people.

God will judge your works but that is not the basis of salvation only if your faith is in Jesus or in yourself and your abilities.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Well then we are in agreement,

God does demand we obey him but that does not mean we will be perfect, we will still sin, that's why we need grace,

obeying him will not save us, keep us saved, or maintain our salvation, but your right, God does want and even demand us to obey him

however, what does john say? Those born of God can't sin, because they were born of God. Those born of God do not need taught, because they know all things (concerning the gospel) who are unlike the sinner who has never seen or known God

again, those are the apostle johns words not mine, so what is the argument Fran?

We do do not love sin, it it against our nature, when we sin, it is not normal, it hurts, unlike before. Doing good is normal,and it is why we love to do good,

again, you do not know us Fran, your fighting what you have been tight,p about us like Peter does, not what is reality
Can't remember if I answerecd this...

You acknowledge that God does demand that we obey Him.

I believe we can all agree that no one is perfect.

God's grace falls on everyone, even the unsaved.

It's the Holy Spirit that is our helper, comforter and paraclete.

I never said you love sin.

It does, however, seem to be what you're saying when you fight against declaring that we must obey God. it makes it sound like you think we don't have to obey Him, and that is the definition of sin.

What do you think I've been taught?
I've learned about eternals security from those who believe it.
The two churches that have taught me much do not believe in eternal security.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
All this does not change the fact that if you don't have the Rock, you will be thrown into Hello

If you have Christ as your foundation, you will be saved even by fire a,d all your doctrines but that one be wrong because God is able to save His people.

God will judge your works but that is not the basis of salvation only if your faith is in Jesus or in yourself and your abilities.
I would hate to be thrown into Hello. How do I find this Eock?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well AMEN and Praise the Lord !!

There are two methods to express justification and sanctification.

Some churches teach Justification as the born again experience. Being declared just by God. We are now right with God.
Epesians 2:8

They then teach Progressive Justification as that continuing work that is in cooperation with God, to keep one saved throughout their life. God requires "works" from us, or whatever one would want to call them, and we must respond to God's requirements.

Instead some churches call this the Sanctification process. it is a life-long process and ends on the day we die.
This is why we say
We Were Saved
We Are Being Saved
We Will Be Saved

A bit of confusion is created because Paul used the term Justification to mean both justification and sanctification. The church later clarified these two terms by means of theological study.

I see no reason why any born-again believer who is trusting in Christ for their salvation, AND in their sanctification process, should have difficulty declaring same.
Your first two point contradicts each other

one say we are justices, then the second say we continue to justify

which is it, are we justified or not,

justify means any to be declaired innocent, you can. Not justify yourself, your either innocent, or guilty and need redeemed, you just admitted you were still a sinner, that would means you still need redeemed, because you are not innocent, you need to be justified by God.

sanctification is the process of being set apart, that is an ongoing process which we will never fully appreciate here on earth, and it is a work of God.

for by one sacrifice he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

in case you did not know, that was scripture, do you believe it? Or will you continue to try to justify yourself?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That is is the same as living by the flesh,,

if your saved by fleshly things (doing good works) your living by the flesh..

next
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I do believe we should encourage people to live godly lives a d obey God. However I don't believe that we should make that a requirement to salvation because the Bible does not.


If you have the Root (Jesus) he will cause you to have fruit (good works and a true confession of a saving faith). However without the root, the fruit is just fake plastic.

I believe people are saved when they receive Jesus through the Holy Spirit. However it seems some don't count them as saved until they display visible fruit?

What are those who accept Jesus but aren't displaying visible fruit called?

How would those who insist that you must have good works to be saved , treat those babes in Christ?

Would you force them to be put to work before they have been called by God? Would you guilt them into false confessions and Martha like tasks?

Or would you allow them to heal beside the cool streams of agape love flowing from a heart overflowing with joy from being in God's loving presence? Would you give the weary rest or add more burdens to their load?

Would you teach them of how God loves and view them or tell them they still aren't good enough to be a part of God's family?