Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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E
Have you ever read romans 11?? He is not addressing induviduals, he is adressing the natural branches (israel) vs unnatural branches (gentiles)
He said they are blind in part.
He said they were cut off
He said they will repent and all be saved at the end.
No induvidual people are being spoken of in chapter 11.. Period.
He said they are blind in part.
He said they were cut off
He said they will repent and all be saved at the end.
No induvidual people are being spoken of in chapter 11.. Period.
No I mean like this.....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Commentaries mean nothing to me......just another man's regurgitated view........just saying and not mouthing! I have never been much for them.....I can see men standing before God saying....well that is what the commentary said.....I would rather do a word study and base my belief on what the verbiage, context and definitions of the words are combined with verb tense and prayer......
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Originally Posted by dcontroversal
You would think I could make an honest statement to you while trying to engage you in a decent order without you making a mouthy comment......
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Originally Posted by dcontroversal
A
I don't get the debate....
God wants you to forgive others as He has forgiven you.
If you don't,you will be chastened and disciplined if you are one of His children.
If you aren't you will continue to walk away from God in pride and anger.
You don't lose salvation. You lose fellowship with God until you repent and are restored.
God will make things happen in your life to cause repentance and godly sorrow, which is different that earthly sorrows.
If someone continues to rebel God will take them out of this world so that His name will not be tarnished. Whether God judges that person to heaven or hell, I don't know.
All I know is that none of us wants to be in the hands of our Father when we have done wrong and are unrepentant.
I might be a mean mom but if my kids did something bad and then laughed about it, instead of being repent...I would show them it wasn't funny to pinch or hit their siblings or make someone fall.
Kids weren't allowed out of timeout until they could do 3 things.
1. Tell me why they were in trouble
2. Be repentant
3. Tell what they should have done instead to achieve their goals.
One minute in time out for every year of life.
I would set a timer, go check on them and reset the timmer of they were playing or not sitting and quietly thinking about their actions. Reset timer again until they could articulate their repentance. When they were young (2 or 3 years old) I would help them come up with alternative to snatching, throwing a tantrum, talking back, etc.)
I am probably boring folks but my point is that God is wiser and disciplined us so that we might become godly people able to walk with Him and bless others with the blessings He has given us.
God doesn't discipline us in order to punish but His goal is to teach. he is motivated by love and we should be motivated by love if we rebuke or correct anyone. We should also remember to love and forgive ourselves also, because God loves and forgives us.
God wants you to forgive others as He has forgiven you.
If you don't,you will be chastened and disciplined if you are one of His children.
If you aren't you will continue to walk away from God in pride and anger.
You don't lose salvation. You lose fellowship with God until you repent and are restored.
God will make things happen in your life to cause repentance and godly sorrow, which is different that earthly sorrows.
If someone continues to rebel God will take them out of this world so that His name will not be tarnished. Whether God judges that person to heaven or hell, I don't know.
All I know is that none of us wants to be in the hands of our Father when we have done wrong and are unrepentant.
I might be a mean mom but if my kids did something bad and then laughed about it, instead of being repent...I would show them it wasn't funny to pinch or hit their siblings or make someone fall.
Kids weren't allowed out of timeout until they could do 3 things.
1. Tell me why they were in trouble
2. Be repentant
3. Tell what they should have done instead to achieve their goals.
One minute in time out for every year of life.
I would set a timer, go check on them and reset the timmer of they were playing or not sitting and quietly thinking about their actions. Reset timer again until they could articulate their repentance. When they were young (2 or 3 years old) I would help them come up with alternative to snatching, throwing a tantrum, talking back, etc.)
I am probably boring folks but my point is that God is wiser and disciplined us so that we might become godly people able to walk with Him and bless others with the blessings He has given us.
God doesn't discipline us in order to punish but His goal is to teach. he is motivated by love and we should be motivated by love if we rebuke or correct anyone. We should also remember to love and forgive ourselves also, because God loves and forgives us.
Sorry.....study the Daughter of Babylon<--The HINDERMOST of the NATIONS, the LADY of the KINGDOMS that mounts her defenses to the utmost heavens and who it is that attacks HER and where the ATTACK comes from.....and the description of the attack......
it all starts in Syria.......who is in Syria and who is on what side in Syria????????
it all starts in Syria.......who is in Syria and who is on what side in Syria????????
==========================================================
EG,
ROM. 4:3.6.*this first quote is from GEN. 15:6*
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
and this quote is from the first part of PS. 32.*
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness
without works,...
so, Paul brings forth (2)witnesses as is 'required in the Law'...
so the answer is 'yes', that once 'righteousness' has been imputed in a person's life, as long as he walks
in the 'foot-steps of Faith', he is accounted as 'sinless', and therefore he CAN inherit the
Kingdom of God...the whole point is, 'even though he still 'sins' sometimes, he is evidently
accounted in God's eyes as 'sinless' - this principle applies to anyone who has been truly
called, chosen, and elected, and BELIEVES every Word of God..
ROM. 4:8.
Blessed is the man to whom The Lord will not impute sin.
GEN. 12:4.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him:
and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
GEN. 21:5.
And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
so now we have how many years between Abraham's 'calling' and the 'offering' -
most scholars estimate about (29)years...
ROM. 4:15 through 22, this is the account of Abraham 'walking in Faith'...
so, if he died on the spot at any point of these scriptures, his 'inheritance would be sure'...
EG,
ROM. 4:3.6.*this first quote is from GEN. 15:6*
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
and this quote is from the first part of PS. 32.*
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness
without works,...
so, Paul brings forth (2)witnesses as is 'required in the Law'...
so the answer is 'yes', that once 'righteousness' has been imputed in a person's life, as long as he walks
in the 'foot-steps of Faith', he is accounted as 'sinless', and therefore he CAN inherit the
Kingdom of God...the whole point is, 'even though he still 'sins' sometimes, he is evidently
accounted in God's eyes as 'sinless' - this principle applies to anyone who has been truly
called, chosen, and elected, and BELIEVES every Word of God..
ROM. 4:8.
Blessed is the man to whom The Lord will not impute sin.
GEN. 12:4.
So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him:
and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
GEN. 21:5.
And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
so now we have how many years between Abraham's 'calling' and the 'offering' -
most scholars estimate about (29)years...
ROM. 4:15 through 22, this is the account of Abraham 'walking in Faith'...
so, if he died on the spot at any point of these scriptures, his 'inheritance would be sure'...
Let's post some more commentaries that agree with me.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For if God spared not the natural branches,.... That is, executed his righteous judgments, inflicted due punishment upon the Jews, unchurched them, and stripped them of those privileges they enjoyed in a church state; who were the natural descendants of Abraham; were naturally, and as born into the world, in a national church state and in that national covenant God made with that people; to whom belonged a national adoption, in which sense they were the sons of God, his firstborn; they were chosen by him as a special and peculiar people, to very great favours and privileges; they were Christ's own, he came of them according to the flesh, and was particularly sent unto them, and ministered among them; wherefore, if, at last, God did not spare this people, though he had for a long time done it, but stirred up all his wrath against them, they disbelieving his Son, rejecting and despising the Messiah, and salvation by him, this should awaken the fear, care, and caution of the Gentiles in a church state, lest if they behave not well, he should deal in like manner with them:take heed lest he also spare not thee; for whatever was done to the Jews in former or latter times, are written for the instruction and admonition of Gentiles; and the use they are to make thereof is, to be careful and cautious, lest by imbibing principles derogatory from the grace of God and glory of Christ, or by an unbecoming walk and conversation they provoke the Lord to unchurch them as he has done the Jews before them; and which they may the rather fear, since the Jews were the natural branches, and they formerly strangers and aliens.
Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:21. As far as comparisons can be made at all in such things, the Jews had been more securely invested in the kingdom than the Gentiles. They were, in the language of the figure, not artificially grafted, but native branches, on the tree of God’s people; yet even that did not prevent Him from cutting off those who did not believe. And if He did not spare them, He will not spare Gentiles either, if in pride they fall from faith. On εἰ … οὐκ ἐφείσατο see Winer, 599 f. The true reading of the last word is φείσεται (not φείσηται), but Weiss would retain μήπως (see crit. note) even with this future, and supply the missing link of thought from φοβοῦ: one may fear that he will not, etc. The ironical reserve of this (though the future makes the thing to be feared as certain as possible) is quite Pauline, and the μήπως ([7] [8] [9] [10]) may be genuine.
Barnes notes
For if God ... - If God did not refrain from rejecting the Jews who became unbelievers, assuredly he will not refrain from rejecting you in the same circumstances. It may be supposed that he will be quite as ready to reject the ingrafted branches, as to cast off those which belonged to the parent stock. The situation of the Gentiles is not such as to give them any security over the condition of the rejected Jew.
Pulpit Commentary Homiletics
II. But this very position was fraught with danger. "Glory not;" "Thou standest by thy faith." The danger of false pride was not an imaginary one; Gentiles probably did glory over the Jews. Nay, do they not glory still over these "unbelievers"? Do they not sometimes persecute them even to death? But how false was the pride! They were only grafted branches, borne by the ancient root of Israel. And yet they deported themselves with such consequence, and affected to despise their neighbour branches, as well as those that had been broken off. Another danger was involved in this: false, uncharitable pride was perilously near to a damnable unbelief; it was indeed that unbelief begun. Why had these branches been broken from the ancient tree? "Because of their unbelief." Was not the same excision impending over unbelief still? Instead, then, of pride, let them cherish a holy fear, and walk humbly with their God. For most surely, if God spared not the natural branches, neither would he spare them.
It's not my fault commentaries over 100 years old agree with me.
Those that know the truth agree.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For if God spared not the natural branches,.... That is, executed his righteous judgments, inflicted due punishment upon the Jews, unchurched them, and stripped them of those privileges they enjoyed in a church state; who were the natural descendants of Abraham; were naturally, and as born into the world, in a national church state and in that national covenant God made with that people; to whom belonged a national adoption, in which sense they were the sons of God, his firstborn; they were chosen by him as a special and peculiar people, to very great favours and privileges; they were Christ's own, he came of them according to the flesh, and was particularly sent unto them, and ministered among them; wherefore, if, at last, God did not spare this people, though he had for a long time done it, but stirred up all his wrath against them, they disbelieving his Son, rejecting and despising the Messiah, and salvation by him, this should awaken the fear, care, and caution of the Gentiles in a church state, lest if they behave not well, he should deal in like manner with them:take heed lest he also spare not thee; for whatever was done to the Jews in former or latter times, are written for the instruction and admonition of Gentiles; and the use they are to make thereof is, to be careful and cautious, lest by imbibing principles derogatory from the grace of God and glory of Christ, or by an unbecoming walk and conversation they provoke the Lord to unchurch them as he has done the Jews before them; and which they may the rather fear, since the Jews were the natural branches, and they formerly strangers and aliens.
Expositor's Greek Testament
Romans 11:21. As far as comparisons can be made at all in such things, the Jews had been more securely invested in the kingdom than the Gentiles. They were, in the language of the figure, not artificially grafted, but native branches, on the tree of God’s people; yet even that did not prevent Him from cutting off those who did not believe. And if He did not spare them, He will not spare Gentiles either, if in pride they fall from faith. On εἰ … οὐκ ἐφείσατο see Winer, 599 f. The true reading of the last word is φείσεται (not φείσηται), but Weiss would retain μήπως (see crit. note) even with this future, and supply the missing link of thought from φοβοῦ: one may fear that he will not, etc. The ironical reserve of this (though the future makes the thing to be feared as certain as possible) is quite Pauline, and the μήπως ([7] [8] [9] [10]) may be genuine.
Barnes notes
For if God ... - If God did not refrain from rejecting the Jews who became unbelievers, assuredly he will not refrain from rejecting you in the same circumstances. It may be supposed that he will be quite as ready to reject the ingrafted branches, as to cast off those which belonged to the parent stock. The situation of the Gentiles is not such as to give them any security over the condition of the rejected Jew.
Pulpit Commentary Homiletics
II. But this very position was fraught with danger. "Glory not;" "Thou standest by thy faith." The danger of false pride was not an imaginary one; Gentiles probably did glory over the Jews. Nay, do they not glory still over these "unbelievers"? Do they not sometimes persecute them even to death? But how false was the pride! They were only grafted branches, borne by the ancient root of Israel. And yet they deported themselves with such consequence, and affected to despise their neighbour branches, as well as those that had been broken off. Another danger was involved in this: false, uncharitable pride was perilously near to a damnable unbelief; it was indeed that unbelief begun. Why had these branches been broken from the ancient tree? "Because of their unbelief." Was not the same excision impending over unbelief still? Instead, then, of pride, let them cherish a holy fear, and walk humbly with their God. For most surely, if God spared not the natural branches, neither would he spare them.
It's not my fault commentaries over 100 years old agree with me.
Those that know the truth agree.
If Abraham had not offered up his son Isaac then his faith was not that strong to begin with. He was already counted as being righteousness before God. What saved Abraham is the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for his sins. You are not saved by your works but rather works are a manifestation of one's salvation. If Abraham declined to sacrifice his son Isaac then God would have appointed another to take his place if this symbolic act of sacrifice was crucial for God's plan and narrative.
Who said I loved trump pal? And as far as salvation....it was a gift freely given in Christ...so, who is really TRYING to take the cake.......??
Now.....let me set you straight on my view of the U.S. and Trump......
The U.S. is a Gentile world power...it has never been a Christian country, but has had Christians in it. As far as Trump goes....my view is he is probably the best for the economy and some general freedoms.......the big fear I have with him is that he has the guts and gumption to lead us into a World War with Russia....
You really presume to know a lot about me.....I find it interesting that you can make the calls you make about me personally without knowing one real fact about me.......so.........at the end of the day the above diatribe directed at me....misses the mark and continues to prove that you like to take the cake......
Now.....let me set you straight on my view of the U.S. and Trump......
The U.S. is a Gentile world power...it has never been a Christian country, but has had Christians in it. As far as Trump goes....my view is he is probably the best for the economy and some general freedoms.......the big fear I have with him is that he has the guts and gumption to lead us into a World War with Russia....
You really presume to know a lot about me.....I find it interesting that you can make the calls you make about me personally without knowing one real fact about me.......so.........at the end of the day the above diatribe directed at me....misses the mark and continues to prove that you like to take the cake......
When Trump was on the ticket, it was amazing how many wanted him and Hillary was
the devil. It seemed like most of the americans here on cc loved him so much, and the liberals
were the most evil group in the world.
I think the above shows where your loyalties lie.
This is not difficult to get for most people. And I do not have great insight, just good
observational skills.
A
I don't see how the commentaries support that you can lose your salvation.
Jesus said that many of the Jews were dead branches, children of Satan.
.Many who attend church and call themselves Christians are dead branches and have no saving faith.
They say "well I was born and raised in church, my great grand dad help build this church. I was baptised as a baby and I say all the right words...that means I have to be allowed into heaven, right?"
No. The passage is a warning to these dead branches..,.learn who Jesus is. Learn the Gospel and believe. Don't bet your eternal life on your parents or grandparents faith. Change the statement from "I know of God" to "I KNOW GOD and He knows me."
Jesus said that many of the Jews were dead branches, children of Satan.
.Many who attend church and call themselves Christians are dead branches and have no saving faith.
They say "well I was born and raised in church, my great grand dad help build this church. I was baptised as a baby and I say all the right words...that means I have to be allowed into heaven, right?"
No. The passage is a warning to these dead branches..,.learn who Jesus is. Learn the Gospel and believe. Don't bet your eternal life on your parents or grandparents faith. Change the statement from "I know of God" to "I KNOW GOD and He knows me."
Period. lol. This means you are defining what is being said, Period.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
rom 11:19
Let me take your idea. You means a group. Now each individual either is in the
Kingdom or not, not a group. The group of individuals can be put together and
addressed as a whole, but each individual makes up the group because of what happens
to them individually.
So it is impossible to say, the group is grafted in, and broken off, but the individual is
not. That is just meaningless and being used to avoid the idea one can be in Christ
and then be "broken off"
But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:20-21
The above is direct. We stand in Christ by faith, but if we fall into unbelief you will be be broken off.
It is very clear.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
rom 11:19
Let me take your idea. You means a group. Now each individual either is in the
Kingdom or not, not a group. The group of individuals can be put together and
addressed as a whole, but each individual makes up the group because of what happens
to them individually.
So it is impossible to say, the group is grafted in, and broken off, but the individual is
not. That is just meaningless and being used to avoid the idea one can be in Christ
and then be "broken off"
But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11:20-21
The above is direct. We stand in Christ by faith, but if we fall into unbelief you will be be broken off.
It is very clear.
Why can't you understand that various Bible scholars from different countries & different centuries all agree?
Is it because you are more educated than them?
You are better versed in Greek?
Did you spend a lifetime in Biblical studies?
Or..... it because you want to hang on to what you believe?
You wouldn't be the first on CC to think you knew more truth than they did.
Is it because you are more educated than them?
You are better versed in Greek?
Did you spend a lifetime in Biblical studies?
Or..... it because you want to hang on to what you believe?
You wouldn't be the first on CC to think you knew more truth than they did.
A
I would add that God doesn't toss folks out of His kingdom For having a weak faith.
.when God said they would have a child, Sarah laugh because she lacked faith. Abraham slept with Hagar because of their lack of faith.
.faith grows as God teaches us to fully trust in Him.
Peter lacked faith but Jesus did not let him drown nor disown him when he denied Him thrice.
.Jesus built up Peter and made Him strong enough to endure trials of prison and persecution, even death.
God doesn't abandon us when we are weak. He comforts us and picks us up and teaches us with love to grow and be strong in Him.
.when God said they would have a child, Sarah laugh because she lacked faith. Abraham slept with Hagar because of their lack of faith.
.faith grows as God teaches us to fully trust in Him.
Peter lacked faith but Jesus did not let him drown nor disown him when he denied Him thrice.
.Jesus built up Peter and made Him strong enough to endure trials of prison and persecution, even death.
God doesn't abandon us when we are weak. He comforts us and picks us up and teaches us with love to grow and be strong in Him.
A
Why can't you understand that various Bible scholars from different countries & different centuries all agree?
Is it because you are more educated than them?
You are better versed in Greek?
Did you spend a lifetime in Biblical studies?
Or..... it because you want to hang on to what you believe?
You wouldn't be the first on CC to think you knew more truth than they did.
Is it because you are more educated than them?
You are better versed in Greek?
Did you spend a lifetime in Biblical studies?
Or..... it because you want to hang on to what you believe?
You wouldn't be the first on CC to think you knew more truth than they did.
I get the conviction that some want to come out and say the most extreme
things, claim God like knowledge, and when proved wrong, deny they said it,
while it is there in front of them.
This has to be a demonstration of an unrepentant stubborn heart you can ever
get.
It reminds me of Roger Stone approach, denial to the very last moment even though
you know it is true, and everyone can see and read it. Trouble is it actually works for
some people, and they listen to the emotional feelings rather than the reality.
things, claim God like knowledge, and when proved wrong, deny they said it,
while it is there in front of them.
This has to be a demonstration of an unrepentant stubborn heart you can ever
get.
It reminds me of Roger Stone approach, denial to the very last moment even though
you know it is true, and everyone can see and read it. Trouble is it actually works for
some people, and they listen to the emotional feelings rather than the reality.