Not By Works
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I get what you are saying. I don't know fully for sure either.
But as you said baptism means we identify with Christ and what he has done.
I think for me though
John 10:30
I and My Father are one.”
And when Jesus said he had to go back to the Father so the Holy Spirit must come.
So I assume the Holy Spirit was with Father as well (not sure I have explained that well)
No division I think.
Maybe just semantics
But as you said baptism means we identify with Christ and what he has done.
I think for me though
John 10:30
I and My Father are one.”
And when Jesus said he had to go back to the Father so the Holy Spirit must come.
So I assume the Holy Spirit was with Father as well (not sure I have explained that well)
No division I think.
Maybe just semantics
U
I will ignore the every book in Bible statement since that is just out there....no basis in fact.
But if we can explain clearly to you what salvation is (being born again a singular event) and why it cannot be lost according to scripture why is is you cannot explain how it is not gained?
How perfect do I have to be?
How much faith do I have to have?
How much belief will save me?
You keep pointing out the sinner (whatever that means ) and the person who leaves the faith.
I want to know on the positive side how much one has to do to be saved?
If there is no set number then our salvation is eternal and not based on human merit. You see?
If there is a set number then tell us exactly what it is?
Your position of conditional salvation requires an answer for it to be true?
How can God leave us so unsure of where the bough breaks. Remember Jesus has died for all sins past, present and future so tell me the number please?
But if we can explain clearly to you what salvation is (being born again a singular event) and why it cannot be lost according to scripture why is is you cannot explain how it is not gained?
How perfect do I have to be?
How much faith do I have to have?
How much belief will save me?
You keep pointing out the sinner (whatever that means ) and the person who leaves the faith.
I want to know on the positive side how much one has to do to be saved?
If there is no set number then our salvation is eternal and not based on human merit. You see?
If there is a set number then tell us exactly what it is?
Your position of conditional salvation requires an answer for it to be true?
How can God leave us so unsure of where the bough breaks. Remember Jesus has died for all sins past, present and future so tell me the number please?
That may be the case but we need to look at verse 5 as well
Acts 19:4-5
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
I was trying to distinguish the point made was baptised in the Holy Spirit and then saying repentance baptism.
It confused me and seemed a bit muddied
Acts 19:4-5
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
I was trying to distinguish the point made was baptised in the Holy Spirit and then saying repentance baptism.
It confused me and seemed a bit muddied
What does living a life in Christ; thus, living life as Jesus lived it, have anything to do with the passage you render as proof, no one can live in the Liberty, God, thru Jesus Christ on a Cross, affords us to be able to live letting patience finish His workmanship in us ?
In this passage: (1 John 1:8-10) John describes and condemns two further mistaken ways of thought.
1). There is the man who says that he has no sin. That may mean either of two things.
It may describe the man who says that he has no responsibility for his sin. It is easy enough to find defenses behind which to seek to hide. We may blame our sins on our heredity, on our environment, on our temperament, on our physical condition. We may claim that someone misled us and that we were led astray. It is characteristic of us all that we seek to shuffle out of the responsibility for sin.
Or it may describe the man who claims that he can sin and take no harm.
It is John's insistence that, when a man has sinned, excuses and self-justifications are irrelevant. The only thing which will meet the situation is humble and penitent confession to God and, if need be, to men.
Then John says a surprising thing. He says that we can depend on God in his righteousness to forgive us if we confess our sins. On the face of it, we might well have thought that God in his righteousness would have been much more likely to condemn than to forgive. But the point is that God, because he is righteous, never breaks his word; and Scripture is full of the promise of mercy to the man who comes to him with a regretful heart. God has promised that he will never despise the contrite heart and he will not break his word. If we humbly and sorrowfully confess our sins, he will forgive. The very fact of making excuses and seeking for self-justification debars us from forgiveness, because it debars us from the action of feeling and showing sorrow and regret for having done wrong; the very fact of humble confession opens the door to forgiveness, for the man with the penitent heart can claim the promises of God.
2). There is the man who says that he has not in fact sinned. That attitude is not nearly so uncommon as we might think. Any number of people do not really believe that they have sinned and rather resent being called sinners. Their mistake is that they think of sin as the kind of thing which gets into the newspapers. They forget that sin is hamartia (in the Greek) which literally means a missing of the target. To fail to be as good a father, mother, wife, husband, son, daughter, workman, person as we might be is to sin; and that includes us all.
In any event the man who says that he has not sinned is in effect doing nothing less than calling God a liar, for God has said that all have sinned.
So John condemns the man who claims that he is so far advanced in knowledge and in the spiritual life that sin for him has ceased to matter; he condemns the man who evades the responsibility for his sin or who holds that sin has no effect upon him; he condemns the man who has never even realized that he is a sinner.
The essence of the Christian life is first to realize our sin; but then also to go to God for that forgiveness which can wipe out the past and for that cleansing which can make the future new. Of course we have the power to cast out sins, what in the world are you talking about? Or should I say, what world are you talking about? It is this world Our God, whom is the source of moral authority, is talking about!
In this passage: (1 John 1:8-10) John describes and condemns two further mistaken ways of thought.
1). There is the man who says that he has no sin. That may mean either of two things.
It may describe the man who says that he has no responsibility for his sin. It is easy enough to find defenses behind which to seek to hide. We may blame our sins on our heredity, on our environment, on our temperament, on our physical condition. We may claim that someone misled us and that we were led astray. It is characteristic of us all that we seek to shuffle out of the responsibility for sin.
Or it may describe the man who claims that he can sin and take no harm.
It is John's insistence that, when a man has sinned, excuses and self-justifications are irrelevant. The only thing which will meet the situation is humble and penitent confession to God and, if need be, to men.
Then John says a surprising thing. He says that we can depend on God in his righteousness to forgive us if we confess our sins. On the face of it, we might well have thought that God in his righteousness would have been much more likely to condemn than to forgive. But the point is that God, because he is righteous, never breaks his word; and Scripture is full of the promise of mercy to the man who comes to him with a regretful heart. God has promised that he will never despise the contrite heart and he will not break his word. If we humbly and sorrowfully confess our sins, he will forgive. The very fact of making excuses and seeking for self-justification debars us from forgiveness, because it debars us from the action of feeling and showing sorrow and regret for having done wrong; the very fact of humble confession opens the door to forgiveness, for the man with the penitent heart can claim the promises of God.
2). There is the man who says that he has not in fact sinned. That attitude is not nearly so uncommon as we might think. Any number of people do not really believe that they have sinned and rather resent being called sinners. Their mistake is that they think of sin as the kind of thing which gets into the newspapers. They forget that sin is hamartia (in the Greek) which literally means a missing of the target. To fail to be as good a father, mother, wife, husband, son, daughter, workman, person as we might be is to sin; and that includes us all.
In any event the man who says that he has not sinned is in effect doing nothing less than calling God a liar, for God has said that all have sinned.
So John condemns the man who claims that he is so far advanced in knowledge and in the spiritual life that sin for him has ceased to matter; he condemns the man who evades the responsibility for his sin or who holds that sin has no effect upon him; he condemns the man who has never even realized that he is a sinner.
The essence of the Christian life is first to realize our sin; but then also to go to God for that forgiveness which can wipe out the past and for that cleansing which can make the future new. Of course we have the power to cast out sins, what in the world are you talking about? Or should I say, what world are you talking about? It is this world Our God, whom is the source of moral authority, is talking about!
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What's interesting is how people confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture (do not walk according to the flesh - Romans 8:1) with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture (believes in Him - John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is descriptive language of those who are in Christ. Believers walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit not in order to get in Christ, but because they are in Christ.
Thank you for your observations, and your complements, very helpful.
Not sure how I can withhold something that is not in my power to deny access to.
If people what to see what g7 said it is up to them.
Now my point was a simple one. One cannot make a statement about everybody
and what they think unless you are God.
It appears you believe you can, so you must be a god in your own eyes. I have a
more limited view, and am spotting an inflated ego at work and a poor attempt to
ridicule someones position. I think your position manages to ridicule itself quite well.
And to prove your point, as you appear to want to defend it, you would have so show
everyones thoughts who have been on cc. By the way that is actually impossible.
So it makes me laugh you want to defend such a position. But it is your choice to express
whatever you want, and I hope you realise it is mine to point out its absurdity. The bigger
joke is you want to defend it, because to admit my point seems beyond you.
The sky is blue.
I really like that phrase, it works so well in these situations
Not sure how I can withhold something that is not in my power to deny access to.
If people what to see what g7 said it is up to them.
Now my point was a simple one. One cannot make a statement about everybody
and what they think unless you are God.
It appears you believe you can, so you must be a god in your own eyes. I have a
more limited view, and am spotting an inflated ego at work and a poor attempt to
ridicule someones position. I think your position manages to ridicule itself quite well.
And to prove your point, as you appear to want to defend it, you would have so show
everyones thoughts who have been on cc. By the way that is actually impossible.
So it makes me laugh you want to defend such a position. But it is your choice to express
whatever you want, and I hope you realise it is mine to point out its absurdity. The bigger
joke is you want to defend it, because to admit my point seems beyond you.
The sky is blue.
I really like that phrase, it works so well in these situations