The Rapture

Ahwatukee · Jul 17, 2017

The tribulation is God's wrath, which is made up of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

If you believe this, then you have no understanding of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, which are God's wrath. I would suggest that you do an in-depth study on them and ask yourself of whether or not the church will be here on the earth during that time. But besides this and as I have already shown you, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. In addition, Jesus said that he would keep believers "out of" the time of God's wrath.

To give you an idea of the how bad it will be during the time of God's wrath, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will be killed within the first 3 1/2 years. And that is including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor from the seven bowl judgments. By the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated. This is what the prophet Zephaniah had to say regarding the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the LORD. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble." "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD,"

VCO · Jul 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

And the Scriptures go on to say they will be raised in their own ORDER.

Tribulation Saints will be raised after the Second Coming, those who die during the Millennial Reign of Christ, will be raised after they die, etc.

LAST DAY is a reference to the entire END TIMES.

And in the Millennium, the Scriptures say there are people still dying, and the YOUTH dies at a 100, which means elderly are dying at around the age of 600 and that Promise for the MORTAL ISRAELITES goes on into the New Heaven and New Earth Age.

That is ONE of the Reasons I am TOTALLY AMAZED that many people want to be counted as one of the 144,000. I am 68, the aches and pains in this old body are already almost more than I can bare. NO WAY do I want to be in an OLD BODY and not be able to die until I am around 600.

People will still be dying, it says so, THAT WAS MY POINT. Resurrections of the Righteous are therefore an ON GOING EVENT.

Ahwatukee · Jul 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

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Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[SUP]f[/SUP] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[SUP]g[/SUP] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

7 sevens to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off/crucified

From the time that the Messiah was cut off, the Lord paused that last seven years and began to build his church, which is still in process. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the church. After that, God will pick up right where he left off in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens. The church will have already been gathered and so there is still the fulfillment of that last seven years upon Israel and Jerusalem which must take place and which is what that coming last seven years is all about.

The above is just one example. There are many scriptures that demonstrate specific promises to Israel

J7 · Jul 17, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

I'll show you the principal, for interpretation is based on cross-referencing and comparing scripture:

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"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

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So, we have scripture stating that "Jesus rescues believers from the coming wrath, that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and we have Jesus' promise that he will keep believers "out of" the hour of trail, which is another designation for the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

That said, since we cannot go through God's wrath and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God's wrath is going to be carried out, then we cannot be on the earth when those judgments are taking place and must be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal.

Another example would be found in Rev.19:6-8 where the church/bride is seen in heaven during the time of God's wrath, receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we she the armies of heaven wearing that same fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.

Since scripture shows that the church/bride is already in heaven and follows the Lord out of heaven to end the age, then the church cannot be gathered after Christ returns, because the church is already with him.

Another truth that is relative to your question is as follows:

Revelation 1 thru 3 = Ekklesia/Church, but no Hagios/Saints

Revelation 4 onward = Hagios/Saints, but no Ekklesia/Church

The church is never mentioned anywhere during the narrative of God's wrath. Only those great tribulation saints are referred to who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who believe in Christ after the church as been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.

Ok, well I agree with you on much of what you say, but you have not shown a verse that shows the rapture and Christ's return as two separate events, which was my original, and not unreasonable, request.

Where you go haywire is in assuming megas thlipsis is 1 event, definite article.

Megas thlispsis simply means a lot of suffering.But you have glued megas thlipsis in Revelation to megas thlipsis in Matthew and assumed they are the same event, which is catastrophic for your understanding. As the Church also seems keen on this idea, you are not alone.

And trying to artificially shear off saints from the Church sounds like another recipe for trouble.

J7 · Jul 17, 2017

Nonsense!!!!

I've never said any such things.

Ahwatukee said:

J7, Jesus promises are to the entire church. In John 14:1-3, He said that he was going to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for us and that he would return and receive us unto himself and take us (the entire church) back to the Father's house. According to your interpretation, only the church from the time Jesus was crucified until 37 years later when the temple was destroyed would be included in his promise. This would in fact leave out the majority of the church from the second century until this present time.
I've never said this!!!!!!
Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail over it." Well, the building of the church is still in process. Once it has been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the entire church from beginning to end. Your version just as 37 years of the church benefiting from the promise.

[/B][/COLOR]The days of vengeance is referring to the day of the Lord, the wrath of God which will take place in conjunction with the return of the Lord to end of the age.

Bogadile · Jul 17, 2017

Other than the promises of the 70 weeks to Israel and the land promises. Is there something that the Church cannot have, this is an honest question, since everyone is grafted into Christ and therefore into the promises of Abraham, why is the Church and Israel still separate? Were not the unbelieving Jews cut off, but a remnant remained? How does this work. I am aware of Romans 11:25-26 before someone points it out, that they will be grafted in again.

J7 · Jul 17, 2017

The Jews could have been grafted in at any time over the last 2000 years.

But their regrafting requires faith on their part.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

The truth is that there is believing Israel founded by Abraham, and then there is unbelieving Israel.

The Church is part of Abraham's Israel, well actually it is Abraham's Israel.

Unbelieving Israel is now called Sodom and Egypt. It has no right to the name of Israel, the Overcomers, i.e. The Saints.

Burninglight · Jul 17, 2017

So, Iran is not the church either. Any unsaved Arab, Jew or gentile is not the church but saved Arabs, Jews and gentiles are. What is the point? you are either the church or you are not. God is no respecter of persons, races or religions.

Burninglight · Jul 17, 2017

J7 said:

lol, I am just trying to get used to the idea, lol

Bogadile · Jul 17, 2017

Burninglight said:

We all know and agree in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. However the question I was asking was mostly directed to Ahwatukee and those who hold to a separation of Church and Israel, asking if there is any bible on this, especially in the new testament. I know in Romans 11:25-26 (as pointed out many times) this is discussed. But I am just wondering what are the promises that Israel has, that the Gentiles do not (If they are in Christ) and I cannot think of any. Are we not inheritors of the land if we are in Christ and Abraham's seed in that way?

This is what i want to know.

Burninglight · Jul 17, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

This is the problem. The tribulation is not the wrath of God. Jesus said in the world you have tribulation. Jesus said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened then will appear the son of Man coming in the clouds where every eye will see him." This makes a good argument for a flat earth, because it wouldn't be possible for all in the world /earth to see Him if the earth were a globe, but that's not the point.

The point is Jesus shows up for the church after the tribulation of those days; so, we are looking forward to a time of tribulation / persecution such as was never before nor shall ever be again, and we get to be there to see the antichrist beheading Christians (the church) by the thousands. What will you pre-tribers do when they come for you?

Bogadile · Jul 17, 2017

Burninglight said:

Friend, I am not even a pre-tribber (atleast not yet) and even I can answer this question with ease.

The persecution and suffering that the Church has suffered throughout its history is from the world and the devil. However what happens in the book of Revelation is God's wrath. I have heard it said that the seals are not God's wrath, but it is clear that the one who is opening the seals is the LAMB! Therefore the seals also are part of God's wrath.

RickyZ · Jul 17, 2017

Dan_473 said:

Doesit really matter whether the ‘rapture’ (a misnomer) occurs before or after the'tribulation'? Jesus told His disciples that the time of tribulation would beas in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:35-39) Noah was not taken out of the worldduring it’s judgment, but provided the means by which to survive it. But thatwas dependent upon Noah being obedient and faithful to prepare for itas the Lord instructed. Suppose that, having been warned of the coming floodand told to build the ark, Noah decided that it wasn't important, ‘God willsave me from it’, and he didn't build the boat. Maybe God would haveenabled Noah to dog paddle for those 40-plus days. Or maybe ol’ Noah would havedrowned with the rest. Mankind was, after all, being judged for disbelief anddisobedience.

Jesus taught us to expect judgment and tribulation, and there's a multitude ofverses that back that up. Think about what will come: war, famine, disease,crippling pollution, lawlessness, mass earth upheavals, yada yada yada. If weexpect to have to survive it all we’ll need to be prepared. So how might Godhave us prepare for this? Suppose He wants us to stockpile food, water, andmedical supplies. That may not be so easy to get our cooperation with if wedon’t think we’re going to be around to need it. God told Noah to build a boat;maybe He’ll tell you to buy a bus. How we view the timing of the‘rapture’ will make a BIG difference in how willing we are respond to what Godwould have us do to physically prepare for the judgment He tells us we’regoing to see.

And more importantly – it will affect how we’ll respond to be spirituallyprepared. Jesus said that evil will increase, that we will be hated,persecuted, betrayed by friends and family, and hauled off to be killed. Itis little wonder that He also said many of us will turn away from Him.Duh. Like the seed planted amid the rocks, and when the heat’s on those who arenot prepared will not be strong enough to stand - much less fight back. Endtime prophecies show spiritual persecution and warfare on levels unseen sinceOld Testament times. Those who aren't trained and versed in such things aregoing to get slaughtered, or worse, turn away.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Paul talks about the coming of the Lord and ourgathering to Him, and he says that day will not come until after theapostasy (which is the mass turning away from and rejection of God)and the ‘antichrist’ is revealed. Everyone knows about the ‘antichrist’, but fewknow about the apostasy. Paul put them on an equal footing.

Jesus says it’s going to happen, that we will see it happen, and that we needto be prepared for it or we will fail Him!!!

Sorry. It’s just really important that we all understand theimportance of this issue.

Because satan will tell any lie he can to keep us unprepared.

Burninglight · Jul 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

Feel free to respond to my post, but the post you responded to wasn't addressed to you. I never said you were a pre-trib. Christian.

My point was only to say that the tribulations and the wrath of God are not the same thing. We are not subject to God's wrath, but we are promised tribulation and persecution by Jesus himself. It is written, all that live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution; If we don't, then we need to ask ourselves "are we living godly." Moreover, there is no evidence that we won't be here protected by God when His wrath comes down on the wicked.

Bogadile · Jul 17, 2017

Burninglight said:

Since you are clearly post-trib can you answer my two questions regarding it:

No.1 The Church is returning with Christ on horses wearing white linen @ Rev 19 BEFORE the "first resurrection" of Rev 20.

No.2 Who will populate the millennium if all the wicked are killed at Christ's coming and the saints are raptured?

VCO · Jul 17, 2017

Jackson123 said:

You are NOT taking into account EVERYTHING HAS BEEN HAPPENING for the Last Three and a Half Years BEFORE that verse, The Largest WAR Ever, GOD's WRATH, Antichrist Beheading those who will not bow to him as GOD, boulder size Hail Stones, Mountain size Meteorites, ETC. This is NOT talking about the RESURRECTIONS, it is talking about the GATHERING of the SURVIVORS, who were mostly hiding in the deepest cave they could find.

Matthew 24:31 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Now I must point out that this is one of the VERY FEW THINGS that I do not agree 100% with Dr. John MacArthur on. Dr. MacArthur says that GATHERING includes the resurrection of OT Saints. Mal. 3:6 says THE LORD GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

THEREFORE, SALVATION BY FAITH includes Believing GOD would provide a MESSIAH as Abraham believed, whether you are an OT Saint, or a NT Saint. IT IS THE SAME FAITH that Saves, the FAITH OF ABRAHAM. IF NT genuine FAITH places YOU in MESSIAH Jesus Christ, then OT genuine Faith also places you in MESSIAH. THEREFORE, the dead in MESSIAH JESUS CHRIST, are both OT Saints, and NT Saints. Since it says the Ressurection of the Righteous happens EACH IN HIS OWN ORDER, OT Saints rise first at the Last Trump. If you want to say that verse 31 includes Martyred Tribulation Saints and the Survivors, I have no Problem with that; however, that Last Trump Gathering of the DEAD IN MESSIAH and those who are genuine, READY for the BRIDEGROOM, Living, BELIEVERS, happens Seven YEARS prior to the gather mentioned in verse 31.

Where do I get SURVIVORS FROM? Number ONE, 144,000 are MESSIAH JESUS CHRIST BELIEVING JEWS, many of which were Led to the LORD by the TWO WITNESSES, THEY are sealed in their mortal bodies, so that no harm comes to them, preserving a REMNANT OF ISRAEL for the Earthly KINGDOM of Jesus Christ. The OTHER survivors are the Converts of the Two Witnesses and the converts of the 144,000. Why are they scattered to the four winds? The CENTER OF THE WWIII is JERUSALEM. AND THEY WILL BE EXTREMELY ZEALOUS TO WITNESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE MESSIAH. By nature a born again JEW, is MUCH MORE ZEALOUS to witness than the average Christian.

Here is where it talks about the Survivors:

Zechariah 14:1-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You{144,0000} will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him. {That includes all of us that were resurrected earlier to go to the WEDDING OF THE LAMB.}

Zechariah 14:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.

PlainWord · Jul 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

Jesus wasn't in His spiritual body when He rose. He still had the scars of His torture and death. Do you think those beheaded will remain beheaded in the after life? Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus as a very bright light, as bright as the sun, and it blinded him. Is that how Christ looked when he appeared to His disciples after His resurrection?

Christ arose as flesh. FLESH CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!! (emphasis mine). Yet Christ resurrected into His old flesh body, apparently.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

Can you explain this?

When the saints are baptized they become part of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Thereafter Paul implores the saints to die to sin thus the processes of sanctification appears to be presented in resurrection imagery in Romans 6:2-11. The change referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 also alludes in part to this process of sanctification.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says that the saints will be “caught up” to meet the Lord in the air. “The words ‘caught up’ are [from] the Greek word harapazo, it means: ‘to snatch away.’ Harapazo or “caught up” is also found in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5. Notice that in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 12:5 harapazo or “caught up” is applied to those taken to heaven, the realm of God and angels, not the literal sky.

It is my contention that the Parousia of Christ happened ~ 70 AD. The fact that the saints who have outlived the parousia are raised to heaven immediately after death is supported by Rev 14:13 and 21:24-26. “’Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’” Revelation 21:24-26 presents a similar message. According to these verses, the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open in order to forever allow the nations and kings of the earth to “bring their splendor into it.”

If the rapture and resurrection occur all at once, as is commonly supposed in futurist circles, how is it that according to Revelation 14:13 and Revelation 21:24-26 people are continuously entering the New Jerusalem long after the resurrection and the rapture? These verses challenge this idea. However, what is stated in Revelation 21:24-26 and Revelation 14:13 are exactly what one would expect if life on earth continues after the end of the age and the saints who have outlived the resurrection are each raised to heaven at the time of death.

Bogadile · Jul 17, 2017

PlainWord I appreciate you taking the time to share what you believe is truth. But I will never be able to meet you there. If what you are saying is the truth, I must say I have been tricked.

tourist · Jul 17, 2017

KJV1611 said:

PlainWord said:

The place in the bible where that concept was first mentioned is not relevant as to whether or not that is what God meant when He told Adam and Eve that on the day they sin they would die. God's always been God and that is how He relates this concept to man. Seeing how neither made it to be over a 1000 years old that turned out to be a statement of truth. God spoke that way to give man some understanding about the concept of time in His eyes verses the eyes of man. I believe that understanding the 1000 year old day is critical in determining the length of creation as mentioned in Genesis and also for understanding the timeline for prophesy as mentioned in the prophetic books of the OT, certain books of the NT through Revelation. There is no spiritualizing going on at all.

Dan_473 · Jul 17, 2017

J7 said:

Which view is the most freeing?

The Rapture

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