Not By Works

[LoveGodForever]

Greetings, The Sabbath day was pointing to the Sabbath rest in Christ which is now 24/7 anytime anywhere two or more (the two witnesses) are gathered in His name He is in their mist....when one has ceased from his own works of sin he enters into HIS rest...the literal Sabbath day was among the feast days listed in Lev 23, which were done away with after a more Glorious one has come.....I would suggest using scripture to define scripture rather than James Strong who was part of the Oxford movement in rebellion to God's word........be blessed

Hi Willybob,

I only use scripture to define scripture. The ceremonial feast days are not part of the 10 commandments. God's Law is the foundation of the Old and New covenants and the Judgement that will judge each and everyone of us in the last days. God's Law shows us what sin is and brings us to Jesus so that we might be justified by faith. The 4th commandment, the 7th Day Sabbath is a memorial of the finished work of creation given before the fall of mankind and before any of God's Laws were given to mankind so are not a part of any Shadows and pointing to an Unfinished work. It is one of the 10 commandments and if we break it we commit sin because sin is the transgression of God's Law and the wages of sin is death (1John 3:4: Rom 6:23). It is a commandment of God just like we do not steal. It is a sign that we worship the God of creation. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is a sign we follow Jesus because we love him. (Mark 2:28; John 14:15)

Rev 14:7,
Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

God bless

PS I have never heard of James Strong and only follow God's Word

 

[Limey410v2]

News flash: God loves sinners so much that He will send them to hell for all eternity if they dont come clean with Him in repentance....

I hope you are not telling me I'm going to hell.

 

[Limey410v2]

are you saying we cant create Gods work

Are you the creator? Nope. So the answer is nope you cannot create God's work.

 

[dcontroversal]

I see what you are saying. They were quite out of control. But they were corrected by Paul. I don't know that I would assume those believers lived the rest of their lives unfruitful and so come to the conclusion that some believers never live a fruitful life...in fact, it would be fearful to suppose that because any branch that doesn't bear fruit is cut off.

Chastening

a. Who gets chastened by God
b. Why do they get chastened
c. What does getting cut lose for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit will be saved mean?

 

[dcontroversal]

so you declared that faith alone saves welll you said it pal.. tell me will you have any change in this belief of yours... will you still stay this in 20000 pages more ? befor youve read the beliefs of those who disagree with you ??????????

Make no mistake JIMMY....FAITH alone is what saves....regardless of who disagrees with it...the bible is clear on the subject....

IN the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH<--past tense
and that NOT of yourselves
IT is the GIFT of GOD
NOT OF WORKS least any man should boast.

1 page, 200 pages or the entire world full of books by those who disagree and make salvation based upon works....It will not shake my belief and or view that it is faith and faith alone that saves......eternally I might add!

 

[dcontroversal]

Who said "force?" God works in us to will and do of His good pleasure '' Philippians 2:13. He changes the will, causing us to desire Him and what He works in us.



Really, a God who CANNOT eh? What an anemic pathetic god that would be, he'd hardly be god at all!

But this is exactly what God does do to any who are converted, and salvation is not by determinative choice in the first place, it is not based upon decision; John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3 &c. Note also Daniel 4:34ff; Proverbs 21:1; Psalm 115:3; Ezra 6:22 &c. Looks like God's Word is contrary to your decisional, determinative salvation on man's part/God CANNOT violate man's will or ways error...

Instead God is Sovereign and your teaching falls short.



So salvation is now a reward, based upon man's effort, not a gift of Grace. LOL!!!!!!!! Goodness sake man...

AMEN.....it is obvious that his dogma pushes his own works, sinless perfectionism and adherence to the law........he does not believe in the imputed righteousness that David speaks of as brought out by Paul in Romans 4.....after being called on it like 10 times he changed his wording to VIRTUE and someone called him on that with the woman touching the hem of JESUS and Jesus perceiving that VIRTUE had gone out of him.......Galatians 1 and 3 are clear.....and yet they will still say that salvation is finished off by our works and some sort of sinless perfectionism....

 

[dcontroversal]

I would like to hear you and fran discuss this some more. You both seem to understand that it is not easily laid out and that there are parts that cannot be left out or it falls into disrepair! You both are the ones to have the discussion so we can read it, because you seem to be able TO have it without ruining it by fleshly displays and outbursts. I would like to see the two of you discuss this matter unmolested or at least to ignore the molestations and outbursts so we can follow along and ignore them too.
I think it would be a big help.

You could have said the above without the bolded.....and the truth is the truth....many of us have laid out straight scriptural responses without any heat and or an argumentative attitude to only be attacked and when we defend the truth we are accused of outbursts....take the OP for example and then read thru....

 

[dcontroversal]

I hope you are not telling me I'm going to hell.

I guess that depends on what you believe bro...if you believe A below in his eyes...not good, but if you believe b.....your ok

A. Once saved by faith, based upon the work of Christ on your behalf having been saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ positionally forever while believing the promises of JESUS to finish what he started in you with that good work of faith which he began and will finish, promising to never leave you nor forsake you and nothing being able to separate you from the love of GOD......

B. Must be a sinless perfectionist, always law abiding, with no stop works while denying eternal security, the completed work of Christ on your behalf and salvation by faith alone---->which leads to a life of wicked non-stop sinning because you believe a grace dia faith eternal salvation.......

 

[Meggido]

Not every believer lives a fruitful life, and those that do will have moments when the power of sin rules over them for a time occasionally, because they willfully give in to sin. If we believe that the presence of sin is done away with after we believe, then I can safely say that I have no knowledge of anyone who is actually saved, including myself.

This is not at all what the Bible or Jesus said...I have no idea why you stated this, but it is not true at all...John 15 makes it very clear we are to lead fruitful lives and bear much fruit, Jesus even produced Fruit and said he would in John 12....

The idea that we also cannot discern by the Holy Spirit who is not saved and who is also a lie. Jesus said clearly we would know people by their fruit.

Easy believing loves to say...gee Wally, I really do no know who is saved and who is not because grace does not judge another....

Judging and spirit led discernment are 2 very different things. We do not know the difference because the emphasis is on easy believing and only the passive works of Christ in a Believer.....this removes the need for the Holy Spirit to be anything in the believers life, except for a .49 stamp of redemption. This is also why easy believing says no fruit is needed, because they seem have forgotten that Gal 5.22-23 says it is the fruit of the SPIRIT......

If the Holy Spirit has no work in the life of the believer other than being a .49 cent stamp of redemption, then of course you can say...their is no fruit needed and not every believer will live a fruitful life, because you remove all the responsibility for Spiritual growth, maturity and fruit bearing from the Holy Spirit.....and then claim...Jesus is passively working in me and I can sit back and not have to do anything to help myself spiritually grow, mature and bear fruit....PLEASE NOTICE I DID NOT SAY TO STAY SAVED.....

This is why this whole stupid thread is still alive....We have so far removed ourselves from the responsibility to work with Christ and the Holy Spirit to spiritually grow, mature and bear fruit AFTER SALVATION.....we stagnant into onward Christian Soldiers that defend doctrine and tradition, instead of being Onward Christian soldiers empowered by the Holy Spirit to take back what the enemy has stolen and to be used by the Holy Spirit to destroy the yoke, lift the burden and change the life....


Some of you are so abysmally blinded by passive work alone doctrine, you really would have no clue how to advance the kingdom....so you advance doctrines, traditions and engage in bloviation to hide the fact you really have no clue or idea what you should be doing now that you partook of the free gift....and this is a discerning sign that full surrender has never really taken place, because if it has there would be no more pride left to defend.....

This goes for both sides of this foolish thread.....

can we please move on from the elementary doctrines about the Christ, stop laying down the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment!?!?!

 

[dcontroversal]

This is not at all what the Bible or Jesus said...I have no idea why you stated this, but it is not true at all...John 15 makes it very clear we are to lead fruitful lives and bear much fruit, Jesus even produced Fruit and said he would in John 12....

The idea that we also cannot discern by the Holy Spirit who is not saved and who is also a lie. Jesus said clearly we would know people by their fruit.

Easy believing loves to say...gee Wally, I really do no know who is saved and who is not because grace does not judge another....

Judging and spirit led discernment are 2 very different things. We do not know the difference because the emphasis is on easy believing and only the passive works of Christ in a Believer.....this removes the need for the Holy Spirit to be anything in the believers life, except for a .49 stamp of redemption. This is also why easy believing says no fruit is needed, because they seem have forgotten that Gal 5.22-23 says it is the fruit of the SPIRIT......

If the Holy Spirit has no work in the life of the believer other than being a .49 cent stamp of redemption, then of course you can say...their is no fruit needed and not every believer will live a fruitful life, because you remove all the responsibility for Spiritual growth, maturity and fruit bearing from the Holy Spirit.....and then claim...Jesus is passively working in me and I can sit back and not have to do anything to help myself spiritually grow, mature and bear fruit....PLEASE NOTICE I DID NOT SAY TO STAY SAVED.....

This is why this whole stupid thread is still alive....We have so far removed ourselves from the responsibility to work with Christ and the Holy Spirit to spiritually grow, mature and bear fruit AFTER SALVATION.....we stagnant into onward Christian Soldiers that defend doctrine and tradition, instead of being Onward Christian soldiers empowered by the Holy Spirit to take back what the enemy has stolen and to be used by the Holy Spirit to destroy the yoke, lift the burden and change the life....


Some of you are so abysmally blinded by passive work alone doctrine, you really would have no clue how to advance the kingdom....so you advance doctrines, traditions and engage in bloviation to hide the fact you really have no clue or idea what you should be doing now that you partook of the free gift....and this is a discerning sign that full surrender has never really taken place, because if it has there would be no more pride left to defend.....

This goes for both sides of this foolish thread.....

can we please move on from the elementary doctrines about the Christ, stop laying down the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment!?!?!

Defending the tenants of eternal, biblical salvation is foolish you say.....?

Not to mention ALL the other biblical "rabbits" that have been expanded in this FOOLISH thread.....maybe go post under the flat earth thread......they could use your help

I hope I have a front row seat to see you say that to the Lord.......the words SOAP BOX come to mind man!

Simple solution....don't click on this thread.....see how easy that is?

 

[stonesoffire]

1 Corinthians 11
20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk

*****


People get sick and die because some folks allow others to starve....not because God is punishing people for their sins by making them sick.


Sickness and suffering is due to the sinful nature of the world....NOT because God is punishing people.

Why did Jesus suffer?

~

People get sick and die because some folks allow others to starve....not because God is punishing people for their sins by making them sick

Starve?

When we take communion and understand we are taking of the "life" of Jesus with the symbols, then the simple act of communion will result in healing. But, I think Jesus is talking about living our life daily by partaking of His life. Seeing that we are One with Him results in wholeness of our complete body.

And no, I agree with you on this ...God is not punishing us. Father has given us the way to abundant life, and it's always by faith in His Son.

 

[MattforJesus]

Now we are not to fight with the world,but show them the love of Christ,and not to strive with them,but speak the truth,and move on.

But it would be nice if God would allow the saints to fight physically with each other,for we are not harming the world,and it would settle the debates that go on for quite a while,on what is the truth.

They get in to a fight to settle the debate,and the one who is in the truth,the Holy Spirit comes upon that person,and causes that person to beat the other person,and then the debate is settled,for whoever won the fight would be the one pointing out the truth.

And of course the Spirit would not be like the world,and cause the person to keep beating the person after they have been whipped,but would stop when they have been beat enough to lose the scuffle.

And if they are both not in the truth,then the Spirit would not be involved,and then we get to watch a good fight for entertainment,especially if they are evenly matched,for it could drag on for a while.

So whether there is one in the truth,and the other is not,or they are both not in the truth,we get to watch a fight for entertainment,but do not go thinking that you hope they are both not in the truth so you can watch a good fight without having to pay the payperview price,for then that would be sin.

And we are not fighting with the world,and we would keep this fighting on the down low,underground,so as not to inform the world that the saints fight with each other.

And we could charge admission,but we are saints so not so high a price as the world,for we are not heathens,and we also could place bets,and sell popcorn,and pop,and hotdogs,and such,to not only prosper a person financially with the bet they win,but also to raise money for charity with the bets they lost,and with the sell of food,and drink,and maybe selling teeshirts,that could say,I went to a holy fight,and all I got was this lousy teeshirt,or the truth hurts sometimes.

And for more entertainment enjoyment vaule,the fighters could hype themselves up like in the UFC.

He don't have a chance,and I am going to beat him 20.34 seconds of the first round,oh yeah,but I studied the Bible immensely and I am sure I have the truth,and the truth will set you free,free from a beating that is.

And it would give the females a chance to whip some males if they are in the truth,for the Spirit would rest upon them,and they could beat the males Samson style upon the Phillistines,wouldn't that be fun.

Well instead of being out in the world enjoying their entertainment,we can enjoy entertainment of our own,and stay separated from the world like we are supposed to be.

And we could do this with any disagreement,it does not have to necessarily be about salvation.

We can eat pork,no we cannot,let's take it in the ring.

We have to keep the physical sabbath day,no we do not,let's dance hombre.

Saturday worship,Sunday worship,of yeah,put on the gloves.

That was symbolic,you are out of your mind that was literal,them's fighting words that proceedeth from your pie hole,or if you like cake,your cake hole.

For it would get us on the right track,and the truth would be proclaimed without a doubt.

One can only dream.

 

[stonesoffire]

I love this part:

"I will cause you"...

By freeing us from our heart of stone, we are free to follow Him.

This is how He causes us to follow His perfect ways.

Because if we knew better, we'd desire what He desires for us and through us.

~By freeing us from our heart of stone, we are free to follow Him

Am just making a comment on this about a heart of stone.

While I understand why you are saying this, it's not about the body of Christ. This is for Israel. Those under the law.

What we are as believers in the new creation man. A new genesis of believers. The funny thing is that I knew this too, but was confused because of this stony heart thing.

Our flesh or our nature of sin inherited from Adam is circumcised when born from above. That alone makes us a different being. A being of Spirit and we follow Holy Spirit, not laws that Israel was given.

The Voice of Holy Spirit within is our leader for it's the Spirit that Jesus sent to us for our help. And the written Word is a guide.


It was the member "grandpa" who showed me this about the stony heart truth, and am so grateful that he did.

 

[Meggido]

Defending the tenants of eternal, biblical salvation is foolish you say.....?

Not to mention ALL the other biblical "rabbits" that have been expanded in this FOOLISH thread.....maybe go post under the flat earth thread......they could use your help

I hope I have a front row seat to see you say that to the Lord.......the words SOAP BOX come to mind man!

Simple solution....don't click on this thread.....see how easy that is?

You and others on both sides are not defending anything...you are at WAR!!! y

I imagine many lurking have gone away with...
Yeah...you know what, the world is better than this foolishness why would I want to even partake....


I am just as guilty of getting sucked into the foolishness, but no more....moving on....


Thank you.....I think not responding and clicking on this preschool rant called a thread is the best Gospel you have preached in your life.....

I like you DCON I really do, but this thread is not defending anything...it has disintegrated into irrelevance.....

Thousands of pages of 2 sides fighting each other not defending anything...

If you dislike my soapbox then you dislike Hebrews 6 which compels us to move on.....I do not see how one person has been helped by watching a duel...

God Bless...

 

[stonesoffire]

You forgot to explain what believe means.
This was one of the conditions...

IF WE BELIEVE IN HIM,

It means (according to G4100, strong's which YOU posted) that we will trust Him and DO WHAT HE ASKS US.

Believe means that we trust the person enough to do as HE DOES, to follow in HIS LEAD, and to do what He commands us.

THIS IS WHAT BELIEVE MEANS.
This is what it means to be a disciple.

So yes, you didn't post John 6:29 but 6:40 is the same concept!

You can't get away from works Stone.

JESUS NEVER SAID Just accept me (or "believe" in Me) and all will be OK.

Jesus always connected works with believing or accepting Him.

I posted verses with many commandments way back.
Someone posted a whole list of things Jesus said to do.

I don't copy and paste like some do, so I'm not going to list this stuff again.
Just read Mathew 5 to 7 and 25 and you'll get plenty on works.

Jesus said that those who do not produce fruit will be cut off and burned.
HE said this, NOT ME.

I don't totally disagree here Fran.

It's the disciple thing. We aren't separate from Jesus if we have been baptized or whelmed within our Spirit. The disciples were up until they repented and were born again. I believe this to be when Jesus breathed on them and said receive ye my Holy Spirit. The new birth. Then told to wait for the promise of Father. There is where the body of Christ begins and the works that we do are what Jesus describes them at the end of Mark.

The good deeds are a result of the character of Jesus being formed in us...or being formed in His divine image. But, this is not the dunamis power.

Don't stop at Passover. Now I don't know if you have or not. So that is a general statement.

The body of Christ is a brand new entity never seen before on earth. The one new man...which cannot move accurately if not in unity.

I'm now questioning in my heart what unity actually is. Not going into this, just mentioning.

 

[Ariel82]

lol what can i say im a whacky scientist looking to find out how God created our world...its ok stating god created the earth in seven days,,,,, but when you read on we get told one day is like a thousand years to the lord...

Now im aloud to speculate when we have metorites landing from outer space with almino acids in them.. do you know what almino acids are ?

they are the building blocks for life.

Amino acids are the building blocks to proteins. DNA is called the building blocks of life.

I find your theories interesting, but like many things of science ...not found in the Bible.

I am interested in how God created the world and the natural laws as well as the spiritual ones God has set upon this universe. Partly why I got an undergrad degree in Biology which I don't utilize much as a stay at home mom.

I know just enough to see how much more glorious God's wisdom is....all of man's wisdom and knowledge is but a grain of sand on the beach compared to God's wisdom and reality.

 

[stonesoffire]

Defending the tenants of eternal, biblical salvation is foolish you say.....?

Not to mention ALL the other biblical "rabbits" that have been expanded in this FOOLISH thread.....maybe go post under the flat earth thread......they could use your help

I hope I have a front row seat to see you say that to the Lord.......the words SOAP BOX come to mind man!

Simple solution....don't click on this thread.....see how easy that is?

It is true Dcon, that this is the foundation. I know what Meggido is saying but I also know that one cannot really go on unless the foundation is laid properly. And that is what you are holding to. There is no other foundation laid then Jesus Christ, the Righteous.

The going on forward is personal. We can teach foundation but in our personal walk, build on it with His Word, by the renewed mind and the work of Holy Spirit.

Just cushioning this a bit for you. I appreciate this thread. And I myself have learned much.

 

[Meggido]

It is true Dcon, that this is the foundation. I know what Meggido is saying but I also know that one cannot really go on unless the foundation is laid properly. And that is what you are holding to. There is no other foundation laid then Jesus Christ, the Righteous.

The going on forward is personal. We can teach foundation but in our personal walk, build on it with His Word, by the renewed mind and the work of Holy Spirit.

Just cushioning this a bit for you. I appreciate this thread. And I myself have learned much.

Far better stated than I for sure, Stones...

Jesus laid his foundation and never chased after or defended his foundation to others.....he moved on....to obedience and spiritual maturity and purpose....

 

[stonesoffire]

Far better stated than I for sure, Stones...

Jesus laid his foundation and never chased after or defended his foundation to others.....he moved on....to obedience and spiritual maturity and purpose....

He invested His time with those He chose. That goes back to discerning spirits. We need to properly understand this. You did define this.

and you were not wrong in anything you said Megiddo. Just helping you.

 

[Magenta]

~By freeing us from our heart of stone, we are free to follow Him

Am just making a comment on this about a heart of stone.

While I understand why you are saying this, it's not about the body of Christ. This is for Israel. Those under the law.

What we are as believers in the new creation man. A new genesis of believers. The funny thing is that I knew this too, but was confused because of this stony heart thing.

Our flesh or our nature of sin inherited from Adam is circumcised when born from above. That alone makes us a different being. A being of Spirit and we follow Holy Spirit, not laws that Israel was given.

The Voice of Holy Spirit within is our leader for it's the Spirit that Jesus sent to us for our help. And the written Word is a guide.


It was the member "grandpa" who showed me this about the stony heart truth, and am so grateful that he did.

Hello Stones, I must run off for a bit, but found these for you, and of course there are more if you want to look http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/36-26.htm

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
36:25-38 Water is an emblem of the cleansing our polluted souls from sin. But no water can do more than take away the filth of the flesh. Water seems in general the sacramental sign of the sanctifying influences of the Holy Ghost; yet this is always connected with the atoning blood of Christ. When the latter is applied by faith to the conscience, to cleanse it from evil works, the former is always applied to the powers of the soul, to purify it from the pollution of sin. All that have an interest in the new covenant, have a new heart and a new spirit, in order to their walking in newness of life. God would give a heart of flesh, a soft and tender heart, complying with his holy will. Renewing grace works as great a change in the soul, as the turning a dead stone into living flesh. God will put his Spirit within, as a Teacher, Guide, and Sanctifier. The promise of God's grace to fit us for our duty, should quicken our constant care and endeavour to do our duty. These are promises to be pleaded by, and will be fulfilled to, all true believers in every age.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ezekiel the priest has in view the purifying rites prescribed by the Law, the symbolic purport of which is exhibited in Hebrews 9:13-14; Hebrews 10:22. As the Levites were consecrated with sprinkling of water, so should the approved rite "sprinkling of water" thus prescribed by the Law and explained by the prophets, give occasion to the use of water at the admission of proselytes in later days, and so to its adoption by John in his baptism unto repentance. It was hallowed by our Lord when in His discourse with Nicodemus, referring, no doubt, to such passages as these, He showed their application to the Church of which He was about to be the Founder; and when He appointed Baptism as the sacrament of admission into that Church. In this sacrament the spiritual import of the legal ordinance is displayed - the second birth by water and the Spirit. As Israel throughout the prophecy of Ezekiel prefigures the visible Church of Christ, needing from time to time trim or purification - so does the renovated Israel represent Christ's mystical Church Ephesians 5:26. The spiritual character of the renovation presumes a personal application of the prophet's words, which is more thoroughly brought out under the new covenant (e. g., Hebrews 11:16). Thus the prophecy of Ezekiel furnishes a medium through which we pass from the congregation to the individual, from the letter to the spirit, from the Law to the Gospel, from Moses to Christ.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
26. new heart—mind and will.spirit—motive and principle of action.stony heart—unimpressible in serious things; like the "stony ground" (Mt 13:5, 20), unfit for receiving the good seed so as to bring forth fruit.heart of flesh—not "carnal" in opposition to "spiritual"; but impressible and docile, fit for receiving the good seed. In Eze 18:31 they are commanded, "Make you a new heart, and a new spirit." Here God says, "A new heart will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Thus the responsibility of man, and the sovereign grace of God, are shown to be coexistent. Man cannot make himself a new heart unless God gives it (Php 2:12, 13).