The Doctrine of Hell: Under Attack

[valiant]

Yes......the.smoke of their torment ascending forever before the throne....and Jesus compared hell to the dump where the fires never end.....

in the latter case the dump held dead corpses which men could look at (Isaiah 66.24). The former case refers to the Roman method of trial. In both cases all that is eternal are God's method of either disposing or questioning of them. There is no suggestion of men living on to face eternal conscious punishment. That is Roman Catholic teaching.

 

[valiant]

Well, you HAD to say something, didn't you?

After all, you're valiant..... I didn't expect any less.

One can only fake knowledge & wisdom for so long, & before you know it, reaping time comes.....

yes and its come to you,

Just explain to me why Jesus could describe what followed judgement as few stripes. FEW STRIPES (Lke 12)

 

[beta]

Were you indoctrinated at some time by some cultist or did you determine this from your own Bible study? Well here is just one Scripture to thoroughly refute what you stated (Luke 16:22-24):

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

So this man's body was buried, but his soul was not only fully conscious in Hades, but also in torment. In view of this one Scripture, should we expect a retraction of your false doctrine from you and an assent to the truth about the conscious torment of souls in Hell (and even Hades) after they die?

The sad this is that one can provide clear Scriptural proof about certain things, but people will still not repent and retract and reject their false notions.

Being buried in the GRAVE is peoples FIRST death in which they are not dead to God but only asleep (see what Jesus said about Lazarus...he sleeps). We know that God brings people back to life after the first death...to Judgement Heb 9v27; Joh 5v28,29.
Saying we are fully conscious in the grave would suggest we were buried alive in order to still feel torment....of course not...it's how GOD views our state.

The soul is the body which is mortal and dead without the spirit that has returned to God at our death Eccl 12v7. This Parable is not to be seen as literally and actually happening in our human life/death.

 

[Magenta]

Were you indoctrinated at some time by some cultist or did you determine this from your own Bible study? Well here is just one Scripture to thoroughly refute what you stated (Luke 16:22-24):

A parable does not in any way refute that the soul of man is mortal. Scripture explicitly states that only God is immortal. Scripture also explicitly states that we as mortals must put on immortality. As a Christian surely you understand that to mean through the propitiatory covering of the righteous blood of Christ. Is that not evident to you in your reading of Scripture? Life ever after is attained no other way. Those not found in Christ at the end of the age, following the resurrection and judgment of all, pass from death into the second death. These things are all explicitly stated. It seems many are incapable of reading them for them selves, and understanding what is plainly put forth. Perhaps they have been indoctrinated by some cult that blinds them to these definitive truths of Scripture.

 

[beta]

That's your biased and prejudicial interpretation of the Lake of Fire. You seem to forget the reason for its existence. Hell was created ("prepared") for the Devil and his angels BECAUSE they rebelled against God, caused the first humans to sin, and thereby brought a curse upon everything including creation. Justice demands that evildoers be punished.

If a hardened criminal were to deliberately attack and kill one of your loved ones, you would demand justice. Well God is the righteous Judge who demands that these evildoers pay for their sins. So it is not a "torture chamber" as you mockingly suggest, but the Lake of Fire is a righteously created place for the punishment of spirit beings.

At the same time God offers His grace and salvation to ALL MEN, so that none should go to Hell, but that all should come to repentance and salvation. God did not create Hell for human beings, but if they refuse to obey the Gospel, they also condemn themselves as rebels against God's offer of mercy, pardon, forgiveness, and eternal life. That is a very serious matter in God's eyes, because His only begotten Son paid a very high price for the salvation of the world.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17).

The 'lake of fire is indeed punishment for evil spirit beings....but MAN is not a spirit being, Man is Mortal and 'consumed in the fire....become ASHES under the feet of the Saints Mal 4v3. Just because he ends up in the same fire as the evil spirits does NOT make man immortal or suffer 'eternal torture. Flesh is combustible !

 

[garee]

Matthew 18:6-11 teaches the doctrine of Hell plainly. And what is called "eternal destruction" includes eternal torment. Why would the fire be "everlasting" if the torment were not also "everlasting"?

The smoke is typified as everlasting. The substance is gone and has returned to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed of and the temporal spirit (not eternal) returns to God who gave it . Remember what we are is not what we will be a far as a new inccoruptible bodies . The flesh profits for nothing .It is His unseen Spirit that does work in us to give us a new sprit and a new heart that could never die or ever go up in smoke

It was a living suffering in respect to Christ as a living sacrifice .Christ cannot die, he is God. The body as the Son of man he used was for the one time demonstration . He does not continue to suffer for ever I torment, he sat down. It why he uses Jonas who also experienced a living suffering plainly called hell.

Its eternal destruction never to rise to new spirit life for those in whom God did not apply his mercy and grace to . God does not scare people to make good choices. We fear him because with him there is mercy and grace. Those who do not fear him aright simply do not rise to new spirit life on the last day.

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Yes......the.smoke of their torment ascending forever before the throne....and Jesus compared hell to the dump where the fires never end.....

Yes His word is law. His firery judgemnt remains .It is not subject to change. Those who know not the mercy and grace of God simply wil not rise to new spirit life on the last day . They are not subject to the new spirit and new body on the last day . No scare tactics... it did not work with Adam and Eve why would it work on those already dead in their tresaapasses and sins?

 

[Snoozy]

I once held your views, But then I learned Greek and Hebrew and studied the Scriptures in the original.

No one has yet to show me a verse which says that the wicked will suffer conscious punishment in Hell for ever. They simply have to rely on doubtful Scriptures in Revelation, as though God let the world perish without knowing the truth for 4000 years and more.

there is da big cahuna. everytime there is a false doctrine u already kno they r gonna go back to da greek and hebrew to pull a veil over da eyes of regular folks who believe the bible for what it says. beware of them doing this. if hell isnt eternal why would anyone share the gospel?? "yo dude God like totally loves u and stuff so maybe u should like come to church to listen to rock music and watch like a totally cool pastor in ripped skinnyjeans sit on a barstool and tell u how great u are"
is that the gospel?? seems like the GREAT FALLING AWAY is happening. i better watch it, and so do u. do not be deceived by tha bible correctors.
hell is eternal or we are wasting time evangelizing tha world and saving them from nothingness.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

makes no sense if we are just our bodies.

 

[Magenta]

Yes His word is law. His fiery judgment remains. It is not subject to change. Those who know not the mercy and grace of God simply will not rise to new spirit life on the last day. They are not subject to the new spirit and new body on the last day. No scare tactics... it did not work with Adam and Eve why would it work on those already dead in their trespasses and sins?

That is a good point. It truly saddens me that people claim some doctrine that makes God out to be a cruel monster is under attack, when really what is under attack is the nature and character of God. The lie goes right back to the garden, before the fall. People talk as if the soul of man is immortal when Scripture plainly states that only God is immortal, and He has the power to destroy both body and soul in hell. That is Biblically given as a reason why we are to fear Him and yet people will say it is not reason enough.

 

[valiant]

hell is eternal or we are wasting time evangelizing tha world and saving them from nothingness.

Hell is eternal. You simply misunderstand it. It is WE who are not eternal unless we have received eternal life.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, DESTROY both body and soul in Hell. They are thus no more.

 

[joaniemarie]

No undergrace, eternal punishment for sin against a Holy and eternal God. Look at Jesus had to go through to satisfy the penalty for our sins. God could have snapped his finger and said, "you're all forgiven" and that without providing a sacrifice. But because God is a righteous God He provided salvation keeping within his own word which he has been demonstrating from the time that he brought Adam and eve animal skins to cover their nakedness, meaning that He had to shed the blood of an animal to make atonement for them. Instead, God left heaven and kinned himself to mankind in order to be our kinsman redeemer, a human being without sin to pay the penalty for our sins. He kept within his own word which says, "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins.

No, the scriptures are correct in that, everyone who trusts in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. Everyone who rejects Christ will be held accountable for their own sins, the results of which are everlasting and that because as king David said when he sinned with Bathsheba, "Against you alone have I sinned."

There is no annihilation, for that would be getting off easy. Not to mention that scripture does not support annihilation or extinction. Everyone who comes into the world exists for ever, either in eternal life in the joy of the Lord or eternal punishment in separation from God in the lake of fire.

Because I have been taught and am learning more each day to have a great and growing appreciation for the good "grace" (unmerited unearned love and favor of God IN Christ) I see how truly awful and overpowering sin is and that nothing anyone human (except Jesus the God-man) would or could satisfy the payment.

With Jesus we have been given ALL things good. Without Jesus there is nothing but an evil expectation of judgment. The magnitude of the "alls" on both sides is MAJOR. Depending on which side of Christ a human being is on will determine what happens to their eternal souls. The idea of not having the love of God IN Christ is something I don't even want to or have to think about so dependent now that I am on Jesus and what He has given me.

Without Jesus I'd be thrown emotionally into a pit of hopelessness and doom not only here on earth but would fear living here AND living life later without Him. Without Him we have nothing. The more we learn about Him the more we see how much we need Him.

But in reading many of the posts on this thread, I can appreciate the way some Christians have been able to respect one another in their different views on the subject without personal attacks being waged. (so refreshing) We can be challenged to see and learn about different interpretations without having to abandon what we believe the Bible is saying.

If anything., it's maturity and peace that can hear what others believe and why they believe it and yet we can stand on what we believe and be thoroughly convinced in our own minds the truths we have been given from the Holy Spirit about the Bible. We learn to be thoroughly convinced in our own minds also by hearing what others think. If our beliefs can't stand up to any scrutiny than we need to wonder why.

It's good knowing and being confident that God will work it out as He is the sole authority on truth. Not the many different people (as respected and loved as they are) with different opinions and interpretations. Only God has the whole truth. Us humans will not have it all 100% and wrapped up totally.

I believe along with others here there is a hell and it was not made for man but for the devil and his angels. But man fell and then all mankind was cursed and guilty. Mankind needs Jesus to save us. No other name is given under heaven for us to be saved. Saved from our sin and the penalty and judgment of sin. Jesus gives us this "so great a salvation" It's greater than we can understand. There is more about our salvation that we will be learning all through our lives.

The major doctrines of the faith are what we all agree on that have to do with the deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins as He is the only Way the Truth and the life. Jesus is the foundation of our faith and we are the body. Our disagreements can't define us. Jesus has made the bride spotless in God's sight. Amen!!

 

[UnderGrace]

I like it too that it has been mostly civil.

I would like to ask you, our crimes/sins are finite, we live in a finite world world correct?

Why is it necessary to punish eternally?

Given what you have experienced and know about God's love, what pleasure can it bring Him to punish eternally, especially in light of the cross when Jesus took on the sins of the whole world, why would he do that, only to have them eternally punished?

There is something not right here considering the cost of the cross.

There are a lot of words in the bible that have been misconstrued by the RC church to mean things they do not and Magenta has shown some of them.

Just something to think about

Because I have been taught and am learning more each day to have a great and growing appreciation for the good "grace" (unmerited unearned love and favor of God IN Christ) I see how truly awful and overpowering sin is and that nothing anyone human (except Jesus the God-man) would or could satisfy the payment.

With Jesus we have been given ALL things good. Without Jesus there is nothing but an evil expectation of judgment. The magnitude of the "alls" on both sides is MAJOR. Depending on which side of Christ a human being is on will determine what happens to their eternal souls. The idea of not having the love of God IN Christ is something I don't even want to or have to think about so dependent now that I am on Jesus and what He has given me.

Without Jesus I'd be thrown emotionally into a pit of hopelessness and doom not only here on earth but would fear living here AND living life later without Him. Without Him we have nothing. The more we learn about Him the more we see how much need Him.

But in reading many of the posts on this thread, I can appreciate the way some Christians have been able to respect one another in their different views on the subject without personal attacks being waged. (so refreshing) We can be challenged to see and learn about different interpretations without having to abandon what we believe the Bible is saying.

If anything., it's maturity and peace that can hear what others believe and why they believe it and yet we can stand on what we believe and be thoroughly convinced in our own minds the truths we have been given from the Holy Spirit about the Bible. We learn to be thoroughly convinced in our own minds also by hearing what others think. If our beliefs can't stand up to any scrutiny than we need to wonder why.

It's good knowing and being confident that God will work it out as He is the sole authority on truth. Not the many different people (as respected and loved as they are) with different opinions and interpretations. Only God has the whole truth. Us humans will not have it all 100% and wrapped up totally.

I believe along with others here there is a hell and it was not made for man but for the devil and his angels. But man fell and then all mankind was cursed and guilty. Mankind needs Jesus to save us. No other name is given under heaven for us to be saved. Saved from our sin and the penalty and judgment of sin. Jesus gives us this "so great a salvation" It's greater than we can understand. There is more about our salvation that we will be learning all through our lives.

The major doctrines of the faith are what we all agree on that have to do with the deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins as He is the only Way the Truth and the life. Jesus is the foundation of our faith and we are the body. Our disagreements can't define us. Jesus has made the bride spotless in God's sight. Amen!!

 

[Snoozy]

Hell is eternal. You simply misunderstand it. It is WE who are not eternal unless we have received eternal life.



Yes, DESTROY both body and soul in Hell. They are thus no more.

that makes no sense. dont fear him who can destroy, but fear him who can destroy? why should anyone fear going extinct? Matthew 10:28 makes no sense in ur view bcuz it would literally say "dont fear people who can kill u, but fear God who can kill u" its the same thing!!

 

[Meggido]

Being buried in the GRAVE is peoples FIRST death in which they are not dead to God but only asleep (see what Jesus said about Lazarus...he sleeps). We know that God brings people back to life after the first death...to Judgement Heb 9v27; Joh 5v28,29.
Saying we are fully conscious in the grave would suggest we were buried alive in order to still feel torment....of course not...it's how GOD views our state.

The soul is the body which is mortal and dead without the spirit that has returned to God at our death Eccl 12v7. This Parable is not to be seen as literally and actually happening in our human life/death.

Acts 24.15

[SUP]15 [/SUP]having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[joaniemarie]

I like it too that it has been mostly civil.

I would like to ask you, our crimes/sins are finite, we live in a finite world world correct?

Why is it necessary to punish eternally?

Given what you have experienced and know about God's love, what pleasure can it bring Him to punish eternally, especially in light of the cross when Jesus took on the sins of the whole world, why would he do that, only to have them eternally punished?

There is something not right here considering the cost of the cross.

There are a lot of words in the bible that have been misconstrued by the RC church to mean things they do not and Magenta has shown some of them.

Just something to think about

Hi UnderGrace, I've thought about it before too and can't come away with the conclusions some here have saying there is no eternal death and punishment and suffering. My human side can't fathom it anymore than I could fathom grace. When thinking of the suffering of little babies and how sin costs on every level without any mercy to anyone here on the fallen planet. The innocent suffer here on earth and it's based on the sin problem. Sin is so awful it took God Himself to come in the flesh as one of us to get back the earth for us and re establish mankind by redeeming us and changing us into having His Son's righteousness.

Only Jesus could do that in and for us. And in the mean time those who do not have Jesus will suffer. And those who do have Jesus will suffer persecution and the attacks of the enemy and we must fight the good fight of faith for the time we are here.

I also see how my thoughts are not His thoughts all the time. His idea of mercy is far greater than my limited understanding. His idea of justice is greater and holier than my thoughts on the subject. I can't help but see anyone suffering and believe they should be relieved of that suffering. Yet not everyone will be relieved including babies because of sin in the world and the confusion it brings.

Also, why is Jesus living after the power of an endless life? Why is it He will carry the scars on His hands and feet and side as a testimony of what He did here on earth? Why is it Jesus promises to always be our Redeemer forever into eternity? Although salvation was paid for while on earth in Jesus God-man body., why does this carry over into eternity as a witness of what He has done?

Just too many unanswered mysterious questions that don't get answered by human reason for me to dismiss the things I can't fathom about hell and torment. There is so much about God I don't fathom. But still I know that IN Christ I'm safe and don't need to know it all. I'm loved and it's true, perfect love casts out fear.

It's ok if we don't know it all. We will be learning each day more and more.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The 'lake of fire is indeed punishment for evil spirit beings....but MAN is not a spirit being, Man is Mortal and 'consumed in the fire....become ASHES under the feet of the Saints Mal 4v3. Just because he ends up in the same fire as the evil spirits does NOT make man immortal or suffer 'eternal torture. Flesh is combustible !

Flesh may be combustible, but there is a "resurrection of damnation" through which flesh is NOT combustible and those unsaved individuals will suffer the same everlasting torments of eternal Hell.

If one is going to hold to any doctrine, it must be supported by Scripture, and nowhere in Scripture are we told that human beings become ashes or are rendered extinct, or non-existent.

It is "dust to dust" not "dust to dust and ashes" (as erroneously said by many). Well God reconstitutes that dust for both the "resurrection of life" as well as "the resurrection of damnation", and joins those resurrected bodies to their souls and spirits. Those who have been saved are in the "first resurrection". Those who will be damned are in the "second" resurrection, and suffer the exact same torments as the spirit beings in the Lake of Fire. Believe it!

 

[Jimbone]

No, I am accusing men who take the easy road and preach against something all the time Vs the hard way of preaching for something....going overboard on a topic that only results in false fear induced salvation.....you also missed my first part...why does a message of hell need to be taught over and over again to spiritually mature saints?

The Holy Spirit does not use fear of hell to lead men into repentance....

I do not disagree there is a hell to shun and a heaven to gain....

My problem with what you're saying is that YOU can't make a blanket statement on what will or will not lead everyone to repentance. How do you know that God won't use the message of eternal separation from Him to lead someone to Himself. Just because you think it wont means nothing at all. The message of "love everything, and God is only love", may not lead certain people to repentance either. As was stated earlier Jesus spoke of Hell more than anyone, why is that? What do we need to be "saved" from anyway? As far as the rest of your points I can agree with them, but the whole "The Holy Spirit does not use fear of hell to lead men into repentance", I think is above our "pay grade" to know honestly.

 

[Meggido]

Following the resurrection and judgment of all, those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life do not pass from death into life ever after to be tortured and tormented. Those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life pass into the second death, and death is thrown into the lake of fire and is no more. This is obviously too great a mystery for many to grasp.

Acts 24.15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My problem with what you're saying is that YOU can't make a blanket statement on what will or will not lead everyone to repentance. How do you know that God won't use the message of eternal separation from Him to lead someone to Himself. Just because you think it wont means nothing at all. The message of "love everything, and God is only love", may not lead certain people to repentance either. As was stated earlier Jesus spoke of Hell more than anyone, why is that? What do we need to be "saved" from anyway? As far as the rest of your points I can agree with them, but the whole "The Holy Spirit does not use fear of hell to lead men into repentance", I think is above our "pay grade" to know honestly.

Well said Jimbone! And in addition to what you said, the meaning of the verse which says "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" leads people to fine out how they can be reconciled to God, to escape His wrath and condemning judgment.

 

[Magenta]

that makes no sense. dont fear him who can destroy, but fear him who can destroy? why should anyone fear going extinct? Matthew 10:28 makes no sense in ur view bcuz it would literally say "dont fear people who can kill u, but fear God who can kill u" its the same thing!!

It is not the same thing. Jesus said we are not to fear men who can only kill the body, but we are to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul. No man can kill your soul, but God can. If you cannot see any difference between the two, there is something wrong.