Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness that is ours in Christ while on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - one which is that our loving Father throws His beloved babes in Christ children into hell and the lake of fire.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

Let's teach and preach the love and grace of God in Christ so that Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him and experience His salvation here on this earth too - as well as for all of eternity.

Get the proper foundation down first which is Christ and His good news of the forgiveness of sins and then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

Instead - works-based belief mindsets use them to beat the sheep up and they actually cause a mis-trust to our loving Father and Lord.

 

[PHart]

They don't worship God, but the feeling the music produces.

I really have to agree with this.

In my church the people will applaud if the band sounds good, but they won't do anything at all if the music was strained or off a bit. They confuse 'pleasing music' with worship.

In the old Pentecostal church, prayer is one of the times when worship would break out. Another would be at the END of the music.

Again, I must agree with this.

So many churches follow the tradition of beginning with the music and struggling and straining through it, but if they'd get acquainted with how the Spirit moves they'd find that their worship would be robust and heart felt if they did it at the end of their service after they've been pumped up by prayer and fellowship and study of the Word. But it's a lost cause. The church will not listen. Churches prefer tradition over truth. And that's because so many Christians have simply not been taught about the Holy Spirit, nor experienced Him fully. We're in the cold, dead time of the end, IMO.

 

[UnderGrace]

I comprehend your opposing argument quite well, however, I completely do not accept your opposing argument.

But I will say this, you are tenacious and you are very reasonable in your responses, in that you do not make it personal.

My concern, is that I absolutely know that it is vital in the Christian walk to believe what God says is true, and we can only get to the meat if we believe in the milk. The milk is understanding salvation and the nature of it.

We see very clearly that Jesus is drawing an analogy, a certain specific analogy for a specific reason.

The analogy is flesh and spirit and being born.

The flesh is born of the water, once, cannot be unborn or born again
The spirit is born of the Spirit (generate from above), once, cannot be unborn or born again


Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.[SUP][c]


[/SUP]It might also help to understand that in 1 John5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: γεγέννηται means to "generate one from above."

The word is in the perfect tense, which means that “[it] expresses the continuance of completed action.
The child of God is one who is generated out from the God remains generated out from the God; further, the
child of God is one who (because of his birth out from the God) is continuously believing
(Case for Koine - Timothy Carter)

Indoctrination is a good thing when it is truth.

If this is true that you are not indoctrinated, how is it that you can not see the passages of scripture that say continued believing is the condition for being saved?

And it is this indoctrination of the church (and I mean that in every negative connotation of the word) that keeps people from being able to grasp that eternal life is eternal not because you can't lose it in this lifetime, but because God's promise is that the life you possess (if you keep believing) can never end. See the difference between that and what you believe?

I'm not asking you to agree with it, I'm merely asking if you can even comprehend this opposing argument. Most can not. They can not fathom how it's possible that eternal life can still be eternal despite the fact that you can lose it in this lifetime. They think the only way life can be eternal is that you can not lose it. But I'm showing you that eternal life can still be eternal even though you can lose it in this lifetime: The former believer simply ceases to possess that which is eternal.



I have never said you maintain salvation by continued work, because I don't believe that. What I'm saying is, you stay saved as long as you continue to believe. Your work is merely the way we can tell if we are continuing to believe. Works do not earn or maintain salvation. But it keeps getting heard that way. And I know why it keeps getting heard that way. The church is horribly defensive about the believer's obligation to not walk in the flesh (Romans 8:12). And I know why they are defensive about that, too.

 

[PHart]

To view salvation as...that which must be maintained by works not only starts with error, but leads deeper into error

I agree. Salvation is not secured or maintained by the power of works, but rather by faith "apart from works", as Paul says (Romans 4:6).

Since we are in agreement with this, how would you explain Acts 2:40 and 1 Timothy 2:15 to someone who would erroneously think Peter and Paul are saying that what we do earns and keeps earning our salvation?

"40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”" (Acts 2:40 NIV)

But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15 NIV)
​

 

[PeterJens]

Not a fan of Hillsong, but that you ""realized" singing is the faith of some, not how they live" merely shows you to be the Luke 18:9 man and that you hold disdain for others and think yourself righteous.

I was in a pentecostal church many years ago, and we were there as a street witnessing
organisation.

They were very keen on the display of emotion in a service but not on the street or in public.
For me it was the other way around. I found it natural to want to share Gods love for me
because this sprung from my heart and I wanted people to know this for themselves.

Among believers I found it more difficult to just be exuberant in the Lord because that was not
how I felt.

Now making observations about how people express themselves is not being judgemental.
There is always a danger, which I suffer from as well, that our emotional response defines truth
rather than seeing things without bias and looking for what is real.

Does God want a people who live in His ways, or just sing about them but fail to follow them?

These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.
Isaiah 29:13

I remember being in an anglican service and also at school singing hymns which people
sang with no faith, but I was there rejoicing in the Lord.

We can easily assume we have a common agreement about our King, but clearly this
is not the case as demonstrated here.

 

[UnderGrace]

But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15 NIV)

Do you really think this is referring to salvation as in eternal life by child bearing?

So then the logic that would follow is that if a woman did not have children she had no hope of salvation

???

I agree. Salvation is not secured or maintained by the power of works, but rather by faith "apart from works", as Paul says (Romans 4:6).

Since we are in agreement with this, how would you explain Acts 2:40 and 1 Timothy 2:15 to someone who would erroneously think Peter and Paul are saying that what we do earns and keeps earning our salvation?

"40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”" (Acts 2:40 NIV)

But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15 NIV)
​

 

[PeterJens]

For me this is a sad testimony.

One of the women in our house group often is part of the worship team.
She went on a training day with a worship leader.

He confessed though he could lead worship from the front his life was a mess,
and how he lived was not consistent with how he sang.

This is telling is our aspiration and the majority of our activity in a church service
is singing yet this is not reflecting a true sacrifice of praise to the Lord, where is
the value in it.

We are called to lift up Holy Hands to our King, so we should be careful how we
do this and know we stand before Him, and need to know His blessing and forgiveness
through a repentant heart.

 

[preacher4truth]

If this is true that you are not indoctrinated, how is it that you can not see the passages of scripture that say continued believing is the condition for being saved?

See, this is how you contradict yourself. You claim it as "the condition for being saved." Phrasing it in this manner contradicts other things you state and is noted as false teaching sir.

You do not choose your words wisely, and as several have noted you contradict yourself often, even as you do here.

It is not a condition for being saved -- such as in "Now do this and keep doing this for salvation."

Such wording places responsibility in man to do something in order to maintain his salvation, it is a condition for being saved and you are frankly incorrect and make a grave error.

And no one is twisting your words here, I am showing you where you err in what you say. Man up and own it for once.

But your view fails even further, and more severely as it not even remotely looks at the finished work wrought by Christ, not even giving it a glimpse. This you do perpetually as rarely do you point to Christ and His work, but rather tell others what they must do for salvation as you are doing above. Your gospel is so man-centric that you cannot see Christ, mention Him in order to give Him due glory as you are focused on you and what you do for salvation.

Believing is an evidence of being saved, of possessing true salvation, and stems from Christ and the Father, this faith being granted as a gift; Romans 10:17; Ephesians 1:19; Romans 12:3&c. It is Solus Christus, and never Pars Hominis as you are putting it.

Christ's work is sufficient, and is enough to save - He did all the saving. The works we do confirm we know Christ, the perseverance in the faith is merely evidence of being truly converted. Nothing is done for salvation by us, even in our continuation in the faith granted us.

 

[Stephen63]

Let me reiterate I am not a fan of Hillsong for various reasons, one being its adherence to false doctrines such as WoF teachings (well, at least some within it) unbiblical lyrics, sensual music &c.

But where we differ is that I don't know that none belonging to it live for the LORD. Yet, you and other Luke 18:9 people seem to know all of this, and hold contempt for others, while praising yourselves, or at the least never really accepting your own manifestations on here of unChrist like behavior.

When did I say NONE of them were going?

Didn't come outta my mouth.

In fact, Stephen63, your entire walk and mantra as seen on here is to express your disdain for many many people. You're filled with it, and it is a practice of yours, daily.

There's nothing wrong for taking an unwavering stance against sin. The Bible teaches that concept.

You outta try it.

What this post really is really about is attacking me for calling you out, portraying me as the bad guy.

Tactics.

That being true, you would serve yourself well to be concerned more over your fruit than that of a worship band of which you've condemned every single member. Warning others of their fallacies is one thing, but condemning the entire group is another.

There you go again with your twisting & re-interpreting my posts.

If you have to go to those extremes, it simply means you don't have a leg to stand on to begin with.

No real facts, no real proof. I condemn their practices & preaching.....Their people stand before God, not me.

You won't stand in judgment of them on that Day, Christ will, and you have much more to be concerned about with yourself.

All you have done in this post is judge me the exact same way you accused me of doing.

Projection.

Deflection.

Tactics.

All fleshly, sinful methods.

You shall know them by their fruit.

I'm not trying to force my doctrine down everybody's throat.

I'm merely pointing out the sinful actions of the other side, for they are many.

Keep watching for these tactics, dear readers..... it's all they have to work with.

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you really think this is referring to salvation as in eternal life by child bearing?

So then the logic that would follow is that if a woman did not have children she had no hope of salvation

???

If we take his misinterpretation/misapplication to its end, and apply his passive hermeneutic consistently then all women who have not given birth are on their way to hell and eternal damnation. That is a fact and there is no way around it - he is making it a condition for being saved across the board.

 

[Stephen63]

I've twisted exactly none of his words, directly quoted him, and showed his contradictory statements and fallacious interpretations.

But you're not interested in that, due to your flesh you're more concerned with sowing discord and causing division, even if it means conveniently leaving out the facts.

Any honest person walking with God can see that your accusations are false and see that my posts and comments on his statements are accurate.

But you, like him, can have the last word.

I've read PHart's posts & watched his actions. Any errors found haven't been of great importance to his doctrine, & his actions have been to instill truth, not lord over people & force feed doctrine, like SOME do.

You're doing him the same way you're doing me.

Like I said dear readers, that's all the tools they have to use, & they wear them out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we take his misinterpretation/misapplication to its end, and apply his passive hermeneutic consistently then all women who have not given birth are on their way to hell and eternal damnation. That is a fact and there is no way around it - he is making it a condition for being saved across the board.

what he is doing Is what he always does, trying to start a fight, it is better just to ignore such nonsens.

 

[gb9]

I've read PHart's posts & watched his actions. Any errors found haven't been of great importance to his doctrine, & his actions have been to instill truth, not lord over people & force feed doctrine, like SOME do.

why do you not talk to us as brothers and sisters in Christ, instead of enemies sent by the enemy?

You're doing him the same way you're doing me.

Like I said dear readers, that's all the tools they have to use, & they wear them out.

Stephen, have you considered having actual dialogue with us, and just shout down judgement?? I mean, if you see a bunch of drunks at a bar, do you see them as sinners in need of judgement, or lost people in need of God's love?? me, I think the latter.

 

[Stephen63]

So many churches follow the tradition of beginning with the music and struggling and straining through it, but if they'd get acquainted with how the Spirit moves they'd find that their worship would be robust and heart felt if they did it at the end of their service after they've been pumped up by prayer and fellowship and study of the Word. But it's a lost cause. The church will not listen. Churches prefer tradition over truth. And that's because so many Christians have simply not been taught about the Holy Spirit, nor experienced Him fully. We're in the cold, dead time of the end, IMO.

Aannd here's the thing: They claim they have no legalist tendencies in their doctrine & worship, yet their preaching & music have to be perfect.

Perfect movement while preaching

Perfect smiling & gestures while preaching

Perfect light shows

Perfect music sound, tempo & mix

Perfect special sound effects, especially for the lead singer

The praise team spends as much time pumping the congregation with their "movements" as they do with their singing.

Everything has to be well-pleasing to the ears. No preaching on sin, commitment, subjection, submission, Lordship, servanthood, etc.

Songs aren't used for the sake of drawing a sinner to an altar. No song is about sin. No song teaches a biblical truth.

Now that's legalism & works.

This isn't a complete listing of their actions, only a general one for the reader to know what to look for.

Neither do I claim 100% accuracy that every Hillsong church is like this. As a matter of fact though, Hillsong NY is worse.

 

[Grace777x70]

Those that exhibit malice, deceitfully distorting what others are saying and the slandering of others in the body of Christ are no different than those that blatantly live a homosexual lifestyle. These are in the same lists as works of the flesh.

Ironically some of these very ones are leaders and pastors. It's time for us to grow up in Christ.

2 Peter 2:1-2

 

[Stephen63]

Stephen, have you considered having actual dialogue with us, and just shout down judgement?? I mean, if you see a bunch of drunks at a bar, do you see them as sinners in need of judgement, or lost people in need of God's love?? me, I think the latter.

Sinners who have never received Christ are to be treated waaay different than someone claiming to be a christian & pouring out false doctrine like a river.

But the again, you knew that.

 

[Muzungu256]

Those that exhibit malice, deceitfully distorting what others are saying and the slandering of others in the body of Christ are no different than those that blatantly live a homosexual lifestyle. These are in the same lists as works of the flesh.

and they wont inherit the kingdom???????? isnt that what it says??????? just making sure here. mailmandan agreed with me on this just making sure words mean what they say..........
or if inheriting the kingdom means something diffeerent to u

 

[Grace777x70]

and they wont inherit the kingdom???????? isnt that what it says??????? just making sure here. mailmandan agreed with me on this just making sure words mean what they say..........
or if inheriting the kingdom means something diffeerent to u

Inheriting the kingdom means different things depending on the context of it as you and mailmandan were discussing in 1 Cor. 6:9-11

Here is a thread that discusses the works of the flesh and has various views on this subject if you are interested in it.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-what-does-mean-does-heaven-hell-depend.html

 

[Stephen63]

Those that exhibit malice, deceitfully distorting what others are saying and the slandering of others in the body of Christ are no different than those that blatantly live a homosexual lifestyle. These are in the same lists as works of the flesh.

Aren't false teachers in that boat too?

What about those that quote all their important stuff from hyper-grace websites?

What about those that post partial definitions out of lexicons & commentaries to twist it to their advantage?

I think those are waay worse than those who blatently live a homosexual lifestyle, because blatent homosexuals aren't trying to deceive the church.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've read PHart's posts & watched his actions. Any errors found haven't been of great importance to his doctrine, & his actions have been to instill truth, not lord over people & force feed doctrine, like SOME do.

You're doing him the same way you're doing me.

Like I said dear readers, that's all the tools they have to use, & they wear them out.

Actually you're incorrect about the effect on his doctrine and they are, in fact, gravely important.

His contradictions greatly conflict his doctrine. He is feeding doctrine, daily, post by post and I have no issue with that. Your saying he is not doing this is absolutely false and you're using an unjust balance in your judgment here.

You are nearly on the verge to at least be honest and make a feeble attempt to admit, yes, he made contradictory statements, but you won't totally go there for fear of distancing a colleague by owning the whole truth. That said you're trying to justify when there is no justification; the mistakes and contradictions need to be owned.

As to your lording statement above, and in due respect, it is such a hypocritical accusation it is absurd and unfounded.