Not By Works

[gb9]

I don't know all the details of what he believes but it appears you're doing to him what the Pharisees did to Jesus. He spoke in ways that appeared to them were blasphemous but in fact were not at all when fully explained and examined. But they weren't interested in seeking out what he was actually saying. Their superficial, erroneous understanding of what he was saying provided the excuse they needed to fulfill their real agenda--which was to condemn and destroy him, and that's as far with the matter that they wanted and intended to go with it. They were not interested in actually delving into the truth he was speaking in order to learn. They wanted him dead. That very spirit--the spirit of the Pharisee--exists in this forum. The Spirit of Jesus, on the other hand, acts like Jesus.

that was a general statement , meant toward no particular person. as for the rest of your post, I see and agree with it, but do not see how that ties into what I said.

I respectfully ask you not to act like a certain individual who twists and turns stuff into something completely different that what was posted. I may not agree with you on all points, but you do make good points, and answer questions. let's keep that going.

 

[PHart]

I do believe in eternal security for the believer. The debate then is whether one's belief is sincere, and that is a task the Bible tells us to look into. To examine ourselves, to make sure of our calling and election. To be fruit inspectors of ourselves. I, no doubt, hold to our salvation is by grace through faith.

This is an excellent view. It's certainly Biblical as you say. We are exhorted to see that our calling and election (not just our calling) is for real. And the Bible tells us to do that by acting on what we say is true. That way we'll know we truly possess the life of God by the Holy Spirit in a genuine salvation experience. Sadly, many Christians call doing this 'trying to earn your own salvation', instead of what it really is, 'confirming that you are really saved so you know whether or not you're ready to face God on the Day of Judgment'. Only those who can see their faith in what they do have the assurance of salvation.

Just as Sarah knew God was keeping his promise to her by the fact that she could see the child of promise growing inside of her, pressing out of her for all to see, so it is that we know that God is keeping his promise to us personally and that we actually possess the promise by how Jesus is growing inside of us becoming more and more visible to us and those around us in the form of the fruit of the Spirit (kindness, patience, long suffering, forgiveness, peace, love, etc...). Only people who act like Jesus in this life are the ones who have no fear or question about the coming Day of Judgment. Their works confirm the presence of saving faith.

But another facet of this OSAS thing is the matter of not just if your faith is genuine, but the question of whether a genuine believer can really stop believing or not. I have become convinced that this is actually the true heart of this matter of OSAS beyond the issue of whether one's faith is really genuine or not.

OSAS all boils down to whether or not a genuine believe can stop believing. The Bible makes it clear as to what will happen if you did stop believing. That's not in debate. What is not so clear is if in actual real world practice true believers are capable of not believing anymore and that the warnings to not stop believing are sufficient in and of themselves to keep the true believer believing. I know someone personally that was truly saved but who then rejected the faith and went back to unbelief, but.....it's also not over yet. But the Bible does talk about those who sought to secure what they forfeited but were unable to get it back. So for me, that's where the issue lies.

 

[PHart]

Your kept by the power of God, But if you walk away in unbelief, Then The power of God is powerless to bring you back.

think about what your saying man. Please.

Unbelief is in fact the one thing that the power of God can not overcome. That's why so many people are going to be condemned on the Day of Wrath, not saved.

 

[PHart]

Then God made a mistake, and gave you something he called free, and then because you did not earn it. Took it away,

Salvation is not free because it requires nothing at all. It is free in that it does not require works of righteousness to earn it. But believing is most certainly the requirement to receive the free gift of eternal life. If you do not satisfy that condition for the free gift you will most certainly lose what you had when you did believe.

You can not give a gift back, it is still yours, You may fail to be blessed by the gift, because it is not in your hands and your not using it, but it is still yours. The owner does not take it back.

The warning are not for believers. They are for non believers who are in the church who have not yet taken that step,. Paul and John both speak about how we are not the ones who fall to perdition, we are not the ones who walk away, we are not the ones who need to be taught,

You never assume each person in your body are true believers, you must always give a warning to all, even though the few are the ones who need to hear it, because you may not know who they are.

No, it's quite clear that the warnings are addressed to real believers. You can't lose something you never had in the first place.

 

[PHart]

the part they miss out, is that once we believe, we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

That's not being left out. You do in fact really have the life that will never end when you believe. The question is whether or not you will continue to possess the life that will never end and which no one can wrestle away from you.

if I have eternal life. Then that life can never be lost, As jesus said in john 6. I will never die, I will live forever (that is eternal life) and thus I will be raised on the last day (not delivered for judgment)

If you keep believing this is all true. You're ignoring the condition for the promise...that you believe (present tense). The promise is only for those who presently believe. The promise is conditioned on believing, not nothing at all, not works...but on believing (present tense).

if that part was left out, they may have an argument, but thge term, has eternal life destroys it, Because if I have eternal life, and lose it, then it was never eternal life.

Eternal life is not eternal because you can never lose it. It's eternal because it will never cease. The question is, are you going to continue to believe so you can continue to possess the life that will never end?

 

[PHart]

...................

View attachment 174457

But little kittens are so cute, not big ferocious cats, lol. I have a kitty laying across my table right now in front of my monitor and I have the keyboard in my lap because she's hogging up the space.

 

[VCO]

John 3:16, partially paraphrased:

"That all who BELIEVE in Me shall be saved".

Notice that verse does NOT say, those who KEEP BELIEVING in me shall be saved.


Just saying..

I am not a Greek Scholar, so someone who is, needs to proof my post. What I do know about the Greek is it HAS FOUR Primary Verb Tenses, where in English we only have 3 (past, present, and future). The Fourth primary verb tense in the Greek is the Perfect Tense, and it implies an ongoing continuous lifestyle of striving to do that Verb. I also know that JOHN LOVED TO USE THE PERFECT TENSE VERBS. I remember from sermons that in 1 John 2:3-5, keeping, keep, and keeps, are all three in the in Perfect Tense, implying an ongoing lifestyle of striving to keep. And is 1 John 1:9 the word confess is also in the Perfect Tense, implying a lifestyle characteristic of confessing each new sin we discover in our lives.

So is BELIEVE in the Perfect Tense? I am not sure, but it may be. IF IT IS, IT IS THE WAY WE RECEIVED IT, because the ability to BELIEVE is part of the GIFT OF GOD that is Eternal.

 

[PeterJens]

Peter, the only thing I've ever seen Dcon "preach", is the fact that we are NOT saved by works. That we ARE saved by grace through faith and belief. It's silly to think that our works will keep us saved, or get us a free ticket to heaven. Works have zero to do with maintaining salvation. It's like trying to reverse the aging process--no matter how hard you try, it doesn't produce favorable results.. LOL

This is where the lying starts.
I am not arguing for works salvation, just that we need to walk in Gods grace, love and
holiness.

It shows how sinful people are when walking holiness causes antagonism and any distraction
to try and destroy spiritual authority of the person putting the point is ok.

And I am not arguing for perfectionism, the artificial idea we are perfect forever and this should
be expected. God wants people with a heart after Him, how work slowly towards transformation
from sinner to Child of God, member of the Kingdom.

There are only two positions. Either this perfection is instantaneous or it happens in stages with
points of revelation along the way. We can rule out the instantaneous, so it is gradual.

The compromised will always favour some point in the distant future out of reach.
My question was though I personally used to put this into the future, a bit hazy, Paul
did not appear to think so. He regarded us as holy and clean.
This is not our common view in church, but why? Are we bound by sin this easily and
so hopelessly compromised. It turns out, not so.

Now haters will always exagurate and attack, because to admit they are compromised
would require action.

 

[PeterJens]

Eternal life is not eternal because you can never lose it. It's eternal because it will never cease. The question is, are you going to continue to believe so you can continue to possess the life that will never end?

I would now be much more abrupt.

If you do not believe God today makes you clean and Holy, at this point in time in 2017, 19th Sept,
do you believe in God at all? Christ says your sins are forgiven, yet many behave and talk as if they
are not clean but need Christs righteousness to cover their present sin continuously.

Put simply this is disbelief. It is like saying I have washed my hands and they are clean, but I know
they are covered with bacteria still, so I am still unclean and need someone elses clean hands to do
things on my behalf. But Jesus says you are clean, there is now no condemnation for you because
you walk in the Spirit, yet these believers still feel condemnation.

So bad is this condemnation and guilt, they need to invent righteous consciousness, and not
continually be aware of sin and trying and failing to not be defiled.

And what is their argument against this? Oh you are lowering Gods measuring of sin, so low your
sinful state is not being recognised properly, 24/7. Again notice the idea, you are guilty of sin, not
specified, which continually defiles you so you need Christs righteousness.

People who self condemn, who are very insecure and who need constant reassurance, will invent
more and more theology to compensate rather than face the truth, they are insecure and find it hard
to trust anyone, let alone God. They need less theology and more abiding in the love of Christ and
knowing what the cross really means, how brutal, painful, terrifying an experience it was, rather
than devaluing it, and saying it is not enough to cleanse and purify them, they need more. Ironic
that this is their accusation to us, that we devalue the power of God to save without us changing.
Truth with a twist makes it meaningless, just an idea with no power in the Kingdom.

What is galling, is to be challenged by saying I am claiming the cross is not enough to save.
The ludicrous thing is, ofcourse the cross saves us, through faith we are washed clean, but without
faith, we are lost in sin.

But the truth is these are universalists who project the cross saved the world from sin, and no ones
sin is counted against them anymore. But this is just heresy and meaningless. Sin kills people, it is
Gods reason for our being thrown into the lake of fire.

But again this is lied about, that this is the theology they hold to, because they know how heretical
it truly is. Why remove Gods judgement for sin, if sin still remains, it makes no difference.
It is like saying all drunk drivers will no longer be prosecuted for being drunk.
It will just make drunkeness worse, and not change anything else. But people are so
dumb anything that takes away the terror of judgement, is worth lying about.

 

[PHart]

I am not a Greek Scholar, so someone who is, needs to proof my post. What I do know about the Greek is it HAS FOUR Primary Verb Tenses, where in English we only have 3 (past, present, and future). The Fourth primary verb tense in the Greek is the Perfect Tense, and it implies an ongoing continuous lifestyle of striving to do that Verb. I also know that JOHN LOVED TO USE THE PERFECT TENSE VERBS. I remember from sermons that in 1 John 2:3-5, keeping, keep, and keeps, are all three in the in Perfect Tense, implying an ongoing lifestyle of striving to keep. And is 1 John 1:9 the word confess is also in the Perfect Tense, implying a lifestyle characteristic of confessing each new sin we discover in our lives.

So is BELIEVE in the Perfect Tense? I am not sure, but it may be. IF IT IS, IT IS THE WAY WE RECEIVED IT, because the ability to BELIEVE is part of the GIFT OF GOD that is Eternal.

You can check the tenses of the verbs in John 3:16 here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016
Just click on the 'parse' button next to the verb.

And for a good understanding of all the Greek verb tenses read this: The Tenses Explained
Bookmark it for future use.

The Greek Perfect tense corresponds to the English Perfect tense. Read this to get a good grasp on the Perfect tense: https://learningenglish.voanews.com...you-perfected-the-perfect-tenses/3137265.html

 

[PHart]

I would now be much more abrupt.

If you do not believe God today makes you clean and Holy, at this point in time in 2017, 19th Sept,
do you believe in God at all? Christ says your sins are forgiven, yet many behave and talk as if they
are not clean but need Christs righteousness to cover their present sin continuously.

Put simply this is disbelief. It is like saying I have washed my hands and they are clean, but I know
they are covered with bacteria still, so I am still unclean and need someone elses clean hands to do
things on my behalf. But Jesus says you are clean, there is now no condemnation for you because
you walk in the Spirit, yet these believers still feel condemnation.

So bad is this condemnation and guilt, they need to invent righteous consciousness, and not
continually be aware of sin and trying and failing to not be defiled.

And what is their argument against this? Oh you are lowering Gods measuring of sin, so low your
sinful state is not being recognised properly, 24/7. Again notice the idea, you are guilty of sin, not
specified, which continually defiles you so you need Christs righteousness.

People who self condemn, who are very insecure and who need constant reassurance, will invent
more and more theology to compensate rather than face the truth, they are insecure and find it hard
to trust anyone, let alone God. They need less theology and more abiding in the love of Christ and
knowing what the cross really means, how brutal, painful, terrifying an experience it was, rather
than devaluing it, and saying it is not enough to cleanse and purify them, they need more. Ironic
that this is their accusation to us, that we devalue the power of God to save without us changing.
Truth with a twist makes it meaningless, just an idea with no power in the Kingdom.

What is galling, is to be challenged by saying I am claiming the cross is not enough to save.
The ludicrous thing is, ofcourse the cross saves us, through faith we are washed clean, but without
faith, we are lost in sin.

But the truth is these are universalists who project the cross saved the world from sin, and no ones
sin is counted against them anymore. But this is just heresy and meaningless. Sin kills people, it is
Gods reason for our being thrown into the lake of fire.

But again this is lied about, that this is the theology they hold to, because they know how heretical
it truly is. Why remove Gods judgement for sin, if sin still remains, it makes no difference.
It is like saying all drunk drivers will no longer be prosecuted for being drunk.
It will just make drunkeness worse, and not change anything else. But people are so
dumb anything that takes away the terror of judgement, is worth lying about.

I kind of get what you're saying but I will have to digest it a little more.

The analogy Christ uses is having the bath already and just needing your feet cleaned. Maybe you can relate your thoughts in that vein. I'm not challenging you, so don't misunderstand. I think I'm on track with what you're saying.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Let me clarify a few things for you. I am NOT a liar, nor am I a hater of anyone here. I agree with you on the point that we need to walk in God's grace and love and holiness. Secondly, I never said that you're arguing for or against works salvation.. It is just MY own personal belief that we are to strive to become perfect, BUT as humans who sin, that perfection will NOT happen in THIS lifetime. It is impossible to be a perfect mortal in an imperfect fallen world. If God wanted us to be perfect in this world, then He would have made us immortal and would have created an earth untouched by sin.

As far as doing good works, people are naturally inclined to do good things for others, whether they are Christians or not. Our good works will gain us treasures in heaven BUT they are unnecessary to be done for the sole purpose of gaining or keeping salvation.

This is where the lying starts.
I am not arguing for works salvation, just that we need to walk in Gods grace, love and
holiness.

It shows how sinful people are when walking holiness causes antagonism and any distraction
to try and destroy spiritual authority of the person putting the point is ok.

And I am not arguing for perfectionism, the artificial idea we are perfect forever and this should
be expected. God wants people with a heart after Him, how work slowly towards transformation
from sinner to Child of God, member of the Kingdom.

There are only two positions. Either this perfection is instantaneous or it happens in stages with
points of revelation along the way. We can rule out the instantaneous, so it is gradual.

The compromised will always favour some point in the distant future out of reach.
My question was though I personally used to put this into the future, a bit hazy, Paul
did not appear to think so. He regarded us as holy and clean.
This is not our common view in church, but why? Are we bound by sin this easily and
so hopelessly compromised. It turns out, not so.

Now haters will always exagurate and attack, because to admit they are compromised
would require action.

 

[PHart]

Let me clarify a few things for you. I am NOT a liar, nor am I a hater of anyone here. I agree with you on the point that we need to walk in God's grace and love and holiness. Secondly, I never said that you're arguing for or against works salvation.. It is just MY own personal belief that we are to strive to become perfect, BUT as humans who sin, that perfection will NOT happen in THIS lifetime. It is impossible to be a perfect mortal in an imperfect fallen world. If God wanted us to be perfect in this world, then He would have made us immortal and would have created an earth untouched by sin.

As far as doing good works, people are naturally inclined to do good things for others, whether they are Christians or not. Our good works will gain us treasures in heaven BUT they are unnecessary to be done for the sole purpose of gaining or keeping salvation.

I'm not challenging what you've said here. I'm only going to ask you what is 'the righteousness of God' versus 'the righteousness apart from the law' in this passage?:

"21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Romans 3:21-22 NASB)​

I think that is the key to what jens is saying. The church at large sees the righteousness of God that we have received through our faith as......well, I won't say what. I want to hear your answer first.

 

[loveme1]

Christ came to forgive and reconcile us to Heavenly Father.

Dead in sin being forgiven and reconciled by the Grace of GOD through Faith in His Son. Given a New Holy Spirit being guided and comforted loving and obeying through the Messiah's Testament. To die with Christ is dying to self and being born again walking in the newness of the Holy Spirit is Christ within. Believe and see the power of GOD work in you.

 

[blue_ladybug]

To me, the righteousness of God is an expression of His holiness. If God is pure, then He is against or opposed to any and all sin, and He demonstrates His opposition to sin in the manner that He treats us. His actions towards us are always in line with the holiness of His nature. Only God is righteous, WE are not. Apart from God, we can do nothing, and we are nothing.. God is always righteous when He deals with us.

Salvation is a gift freely given once we believe in and have faith in Jesus. It is a lifetime gift, one that cannot be revoked, taken back, lost or "indian given"..

To me, Jesus IS the law. Apart from him, we can do absolutely nothing without Him. But with Him, we can move mountains.

I'm not challenging what you've said here. I'm only going to ask you what is 'the righteousness of God' versus 'the righteousness apart from the law' in this passage?:

"21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Romans 3:21-22 NASB)​

I think that is the key to what jens is saying. The church at large sees the righteousness of God that we have received through our faith as......well, I won't say what. I want to hear your answer first.

 

[stonesoffire]

If a person's faith is not manifesting in godly love then you either 1) don't have the Spirit of God in you, 2) you lost the Spirit of God through a willful unbelief and return to your old life, or 3) you have yet to mature into the perfection of love (see the 1 John 4 passage above). It's up to us individually to find out which one applies and do the believing necessary to fix it so we can be saved, not destroyed on the Day of Wrath to come. Fruitlessness on the Day of Wrath means you do not possess the Spirit in a born again, 'justification by faith apart from works', salvation. Fix that now while you can

If you do this...you are looking into your flesh which is dead in sin. This is not how Holy Spirit works in our life to bring us into the Divine image of Christ.

When we "see" Him....we become like Him. All that we need is already given according to life and godliness within us. We are to continue "looking away unto Jesus, the beginning and the ending of our faith". Who do you see when you look into a mirror?

A weak willed fleshly man of sin? Or the Spiritual giant in the faith that God has made you? Holy Spirit speaks Jesus....not self.

There is the discernment of spirit.

Are you an overcomer? Or do you deny what you have?

 

[stonesoffire]

I

If you do not believe God today makes you clean and Holy, at this point in time in 2017, 19th Sept,
do you believe in God at all? Christ says your sins would now be much more abrupt.
are forgiven, yet many behave and talk as if they
are not clean but need Christs righteousness to cover their present sin continuously.

Who has said they continuously sin? The righteousness imputed to us is a covering that doesn't lift off. He flows His anointing from the head to feet...we may be tempted...and fail to stay in Spirit at times. There is the "knowing to do right, but not doing it, is sin". We simply forget who we are. Looking at the mirror, seeing being righteous in Him, but going away forgetting.

It's how we learn. Our conscience is pricked...we ask Him to forgive, and His Word...His blood washes over us. The Word is our continual chastising and cleansing. It's what it was written for.

Put simply this is disbelief. It is like saying I have washed my hands and they are clean, but I know
they are covered with bacteria still, so I am still unclean and need someone elses clean hands to do
things on my behalf. But Jesus says you are clean, there is now no condemnation for you because
you walk in the Spirit, yet these believers still feel condemnation.

You are adding to the Word just as the KJV added a phrase that is not in the original transcript. We aren't condemned because the Cross has taken away the power that sin had over us. Rebellion has been pierced through in us. Blood covers, blood purges.

Our life is then continually washed by the Word.

So bad is this condemnation and guilt, they need to invent righteous consciousness, and not
continually be aware of sin and trying and failing to not be defiled.

Now yesterday I thought you had a handle on truth. This is the spirit of error. Righteousness consciousness is the mind of Christ. He knew He was the Son of God....born of God Himself. We too are sons...born of His seed. Not the Son...sons.

~Php 2:5　 Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in the Messiah Jesusnotice now the poetic)
　
Php 2:6　 In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.　
Php 2:7　 Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,　
Php 2:8　 and lived in all humility, death on a cross obeying.　
Php 2:9　 Now lifted up by God to heaven, a name above all others given, this matchless name possessing.　
Php 2:10　 And so, when Jesus' name is called, the knees of everyone should fall wherever they're residing.　
Php 2:11　 Then every tongue in one accord, will say that Jesus the Messiah is Lord, while God the Father praising.　

Let this mind reign!

And what is their argument against this? Oh you are lowering Gods measuring of sin, so low your
sinful state is not being recognised properly, 24/7. Again notice the idea, you are guilty of sin, not
specified, which continually defiles you so you need Christs righteousness.

Rom 10:2　 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.　


Rom 10:3　 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.　

People who self condemn, who are very insecure and who need constant reassurance, will invent
more and more theology to compensate rather than face the truth, they are insecure and find it hard
to trust anyone, let alone God. They need less theology and more abiding in the love of Christ and
knowing what the cross really means, how brutal, painful, terrifying an experience it was, rather
than devaluing it, and saying it is not enough to cleanse and purify them, they need more. Ironic
that this is their accusation to us, that we devalue the power of God to save without us changing.
Truth with a twist makes it meaningless, just an idea with no
power in the Kingdom.

Those in the body of Christ who know who they are...who they identify with, and what they are do not self condemn. You called it in the past, easy believeism...there is nothing easy about putting your faith out and standing on faith, when you can't see the results into the ending of that faith, or the promises fulfilled.

What is galling, is to be challenged by saying I am claiming the cross is not enough to save.
The ludicrous thing is, ofcourse the cross saves us, through faith we are washed clean, but without
faith, we are lost in sin.

Jesus showed us through the act of washing the feet of His disciples that our walk will need to be continually washed on a daily basis. Again, the washing of the Word over us for cleansing. He Himself is the Word. Am sure you know this?

But the truth is these are universalists who project the cross saved the world from sin, and no ones
sin is counted against them anymore. But this is just heresy and meaningless. Sin kills people, it is
Gods reason for our being thrown into the lake of fire.

Jesus did die for all the world. But must be received on an individual basis. Otherwise one remains in rebellion which is unbelief.

But again this is lied about, that this is the theology they hold to, because they know how heretical
it truly
is. Why remove Gods judgement for sin, if sin still remains, it makes no difference.
It is like saying all drunk drivers will no longer be prosecuted for being drunk.
It will just make drunkeness worse, and not change anything else. But people are so
dumb anything that takes away the terror of judgement, is worth lying about.

There is no one pushing universalism. I have no idea why you are speaking of it.

My computer picked up the poetic way of writing after that poem and I didn't purposely change the format. Will never understand Windows 10.

 

[VCO]

You can check the tenses of the verbs in John 3:16 here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/3/1/t_conc_1000016
Just click on the 'parse' button next to the verb.

And for a good understanding of all the Greek verb tenses read this: The Tenses Explained
Bookmark it for future use.

The Greek Perfect tense corresponds to the English Perfect tense. Read this to get a good grasp on the Perfect tense: https://learningenglish.voanews.com...you-perfected-the-perfect-tenses/3137265.html

Okay, I see I was mixing up the definitions of the Greek Verbs. It is the Greek Present Tense that carries the meaning of that action being ongoing or continuous. But I still insist that the ability to believe is Part of the SAVING FAITH that was GIVEN AS A GIFT FROM GOD; and it was GIVEN in that continuous action tense, and will continue forever in the True Believer. NOT through intellectual thinking of the Human Mind, but IN THE MIND OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT WHICH WAS BORN INTO ETERNAL LIFE.

Thanks for the links, but I do not see it corresponding with English, and the PRESENT TENSE certainly is Different than our English too.

The Tenses Explained

1. Present Tense
In English, we know that the present tense describes something happening right now. It informs us of the time when an action takes place.
In Greek, however, the present tense primarily tells us the type of action. The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening.

Perfect TenseThe perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present. Sample translation: "I have believed."

Notice that the perfect tense carries two ideas: (1) completed action and (2) continuing results. The action was completed at some time in the past, and the results continue up to the present. {such as: SAVED}

 

[stonesoffire]

I


Who has said they continuously sin? The righteousness imputed to us is a covering that doesn't lift off. He flows His anointing from the head to feet...we may be tempted...and fail to stay in Spirit at times. There is the "knowing to do right, but not doing it, is sin". We simply forget who we are. Looking at the mirror, seeing being righteous in Him, but going away forgetting.

It's how we learn. Our conscience is pricked...we ask Him to forgive, and His Word...His blood washes over us. The Word is our continual chastising and cleansing. It's what it was written for.




You are adding to the Word just as the KJV added a phrase that is not in the original transcript. We aren't condemned because the Cross has taken away the power that sin had over us. Rebellion has been pierced through in us. Blood covers, blood purges.

Our life is then continually washed by the Word.



Now yesterday I thought you had a handle on truth. This is the spirit of error. Righteousness consciousness is the mind of Christ. He knew He was the Son of God....born of God Himself. We too are sons...born of His seed. Not the Son...sons.

~Php 2:5　 Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in the Messiah Jesusnotice now the poetic)
　
Php 2:6　 In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.　
Php 2:7　 Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,　
Php 2:8　 and lived in all humility, death on a cross obeying.　
Php 2:9　 Now lifted up by God to heaven, a name above all others given, this matchless name possessing.　
Php 2:10　 And so, when Jesus' name is called, the knees of everyone should fall wherever they're residing.　
Php 2:11　 Then every tongue in one accord, will say that Jesus the Messiah is Lord, while God the Father praising.　

Let this mind reign!









Rom 10:2　 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.　


Rom 10:3　 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.　


Those in the body of Christ who know who they are...who they identify with, and what they are do not self condemn. You called it in the past, easy believeism...there is nothing easy about putting your faith out and standing on faith, when you can't see the results into the ending of that faith, or the promises fulfilled.



Jesus showed us through the act of washing the feet of His disciples that our walk will need to be continually washed on a daily basis. Again, the washing of the Word over us for cleansing. He Himself is the Word. Am sure you know this?




Jesus did die for all the world. But must be received on an individual basis. Otherwise one remains in rebellion which is unbelief.


There is no one pushing universalism. I have no idea why you are speaking of it.

My computer picked up the poetic way of writing after that poem and I didn't purposely change the format. Will never understand Windows 10.

My own words "fail to stay in Spirit" is error too. We aren't in and out. Only in our mind...

 

[TruthTalk]

I kind of get what you're saying but I will have to digest it a little more.

The analogy Christ uses is having the bath already and just needing your feet cleaned. Maybe you can relate your thoughts in that vein. I'm not challenging you, so don't misunderstand. I think I'm on track with what you're saying.

Hi Phart, maybe I posted to many verses I don't know but I was taught early on as a Christian that you will sin from time to time because we are not made perfect yet. Can I use King David as an example, he sinned greatly but sought Gods forgiveness. I also learned in Sunday school that the more you learn about God and Jesus Holiness the more aware you are of how sinful sin is.

Sinless perfectionism or even thinking you are close to being perfect is faulty thinking, instead of becoming humble we become proud. Instead of walking humbly before our God we have a false understand of God's complete Holiness. All believers who grow closer to God will be aware of how even the smallest sin in our life, either through thought or deed, is utterly sinful. Don't you just hate to be around people who think they are so righteous, and who needs Jesus if someone is so perfect, right.

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Micah6:8

"Therefore did that which is good (the law) become a cause of death for me? May it never be!Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment
sin would become utterly sinful." Romans 7:13

"Jesus answered, "Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." John 13:10

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." 1John2:1

"The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased,grace increased all the more," Rom5:20

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"By no means! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?" Romans 6:1,2

Too many verses?

God bless