The ONLY True God- scripture by scripture! Ready for Truth?
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Sigh.
Try turning things right side up LOL
God refers to all creatures created in the image of God, gods. when he commands us to have no gods before him h it includes us that were created in His image.
When the Judaizers could not prove Jesus was not the Christ they accused him of blasphemy .Accrediting the work of God to Jesus, you could say plagiarism. Where they correct in their judgment? Did crucifying Him prove them right?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. Joh 10:33
I think he proved himself to be the one not in error.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Try turning things right side up LOL
God refers to all creatures created in the image of God, gods. when he commands us to have no gods before him h it includes us that were created in His image.
When the Judaizers could not prove Jesus was not the Christ they accused him of blasphemy .Accrediting the work of God to Jesus, you could say plagiarism. Where they correct in their judgment? Did crucifying Him prove them right?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. Joh 10:33
I think he proved himself to be the one not in error.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
I believe Jesus is God for the Bible says that He is God manifest in the flesh,and God said there is no God beside Him,and no God formed before Him,and no God formed after Him.
Jesus is a visible manifestation of the one true God,the only way we can see the invisible God,and the only way to provide salvation with God providing a sinless body to take away the sins of the world.
God means supreme being,and God is a Spirit that cannot be defeated,and no harm can ever come to His Spirit,and He created all things,so there is no such thing as a created God for it would be made of physical matter,and God can assemble,and disassemble,physical objects easily,so what kind of God is that.
There is no such thing as a created God,and no such thing as a God apart from God.
The Bible says when Jesus comes He will have no beginning,shall be called the mighty God,and everlasting Father,called Himself Lord and Master,and before Abraham was,I am,and is the Almighty,and is God manifest in the flesh,and He dwells in the light that no person can approach unto,and no person has seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus,for He is an invisible Spirit.
So Jesus has to be God that showed a visible manifestation of Himself,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
But I do not believe there is 3 persons in one God,but that there are 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles,and it is the same God with no distinction of persons involved in all 3 relationships.
Father-God is the parent of the saints,and Father of spirits.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,which the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,and the way God provided salvation,which He laid down His life for the saints,and purchased the Church with His own blood.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints,and God working invisibly,which is why the Spirit moved in creation,and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints.
There is one God who is a Holy Spirit,and Father is a title for God,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus,the personal human body of God,and now a glorified body.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The Bible only attributes the Father as God,who is above all,and one visible manifestation of God the Father to the saints,the Lord Jesus Christ.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
God will reveal a new name to the Jews,and speak to them.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
It will be the name of both the Father,and Son,for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jesus came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
God said in the Old Testament He would reveal His new name,and speak to the Jews,and Jesus told Philip,if you have seen Me you have seen the Father,the words that I speak are not My own,but it is the Father that dwells in Me,He does the works.
And that is because Jesus is the one true God,that showed a visible manifestation of Himself to provide salvation,and to have a visible relationship to the saints for eternity,for that is the only way we can see the invisible God.
Jesus is a visible manifestation of the one true God,the only way we can see the invisible God,and the only way to provide salvation with God providing a sinless body to take away the sins of the world.
God means supreme being,and God is a Spirit that cannot be defeated,and no harm can ever come to His Spirit,and He created all things,so there is no such thing as a created God for it would be made of physical matter,and God can assemble,and disassemble,physical objects easily,so what kind of God is that.
There is no such thing as a created God,and no such thing as a God apart from God.
The Bible says when Jesus comes He will have no beginning,shall be called the mighty God,and everlasting Father,called Himself Lord and Master,and before Abraham was,I am,and is the Almighty,and is God manifest in the flesh,and He dwells in the light that no person can approach unto,and no person has seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus,for He is an invisible Spirit.
So Jesus has to be God that showed a visible manifestation of Himself,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
But I do not believe there is 3 persons in one God,but that there are 3 relationships God has with His people designated by titles,and it is the same God with no distinction of persons involved in all 3 relationships.
Father-God is the parent of the saints,and Father of spirits.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints,which the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,and the way God provided salvation,which He laid down His life for the saints,and purchased the Church with His own blood.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints,and God working invisibly,which is why the Spirit moved in creation,and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit,and the Spirit dwells in the saints.
There is one God who is a Holy Spirit,and Father is a title for God,and the Son is the man Christ Jesus,the personal human body of God,and now a glorified body.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The Bible only attributes the Father as God,who is above all,and one visible manifestation of God the Father to the saints,the Lord Jesus Christ.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
God will reveal a new name to the Jews,and speak to them.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
It will be the name of both the Father,and Son,for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jesus came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
God said in the Old Testament He would reveal His new name,and speak to the Jews,and Jesus told Philip,if you have seen Me you have seen the Father,the words that I speak are not My own,but it is the Father that dwells in Me,He does the works.
And that is because Jesus is the one true God,that showed a visible manifestation of Himself to provide salvation,and to have a visible relationship to the saints for eternity,for that is the only way we can see the invisible God.
Amen God does not have a twin and needs a name to distinguish one from another .All of the names in scripture speak of of his immutable attributes , Jehovah is simply used like Jesus or Joshua
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
You made a blanket statement that God is saviour is a made up tale, and then when you are showing what you have said is false you don't interact.. to show that actually you are in error or that you can show you a right by proof, anyhow the biblical text disproved your theory.
Could you explain to me the personal pronouns in Jesus prayer in John 17..?? 2 seperate person. And of course you can't get past John 1:1-18.. the word that was God and was with God, became flesh.
Spirit in Greek is πνεύμα - pnévma (pneuma)
Spirit in Latin is spiritus.
Both in Greek and Latin, the spirit is breath, wind, blowing, puff, blast
Ghost in Greek is φάντασμα - fántasma
Ghost in Latin is phasma
πλάσμα translated into Latin is plasma, which translates into English as creature.
Phasma is a creature of light.
Spirit in Latin is spiritus.
Both in Greek and Latin, the spirit is breath, wind, blowing, puff, blast
Ghost in Greek is φάντασμα - fántasma
Ghost in Latin is phasma
πλάσμα translated into Latin is plasma, which translates into English as creature.
Phasma is a creature of light.
Sorry Pa, if an axiom is a self-evident truth that requires no proof....then how is it self-evident since it is written in the Gospel to prove all things?
. . .
Just because one holds an axiom as truth without proof doesn't mean that what they hold is the truth, much less a principle. Sorry, if the Gospel is hid it is hid to them that are lost.
[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
Isn't it self-evident?
let's go back to what i said i thought was a good way to approach scripture, the things i said to take axiomatically:
there is one God, who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipresent.
if that's not self-evident, then by all means, prove it!
but what will you assume is self evident, that you can test this against?
((i said this because Q there decided that the angels leaving Abraham to go towards Sodom constituted proof that God isn't omnipresent - and i figure, whenever you look at scripture and think it says God is not God, you're wrong))
you do know that there is no "J" sound in Hebrew?
that's a product of German translation of scripture, where the Latin alphabet "J" is phonetically pronounced like "Y"
((think "Johann" -- that's pronounced "Yohan", as in Sebastian Bach))
then European English-speakers, not knowing German, took that & started mispronouncing it.
that's a product of German translation of scripture, where the Latin alphabet "J" is phonetically pronounced like "Y"
((think "Johann" -- that's pronounced "Yohan", as in Sebastian Bach))
then European English-speakers, not knowing German, took that & started mispronouncing it.
Is this where anti-Semitism came from?
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt intheir own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood thatthey had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had pollutedit.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thussaith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, butfor mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sightfor your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O houseof Israel.
(Jer 24:9 KJV) And I will deliver them to be removed into all thekingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, ataunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
- ?
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt intheir own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood thatthey had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had pollutedit.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thussaith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, butfor mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sightfor your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O houseof Israel.
(Jer 24:9 KJV) And I will deliver them to be removed into all thekingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, ataunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
- ?
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Well that's not true jaybird. At John 10:30 it says, "I and the Father are one." Jesus had just said (according to the context) that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. That word "one" is "hen" in the Greek. It is a neuter number to indicate equality of essence, attributes, design, will and work. Jesus also distinguishe3s the "I" from "Fathter" and uses the PLURAL VERB "are" denoting "we are." So the literally reading of the verse would be, I and the Father WE are one." Meaning one in nature or essence.
Then you have at John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and "WE" will come to him, and make "OUR" abode with him." So don't tell me that pronouns are not used because they are. I just gave you to examples.
Now, regarding Genesis 1:26 can you prove that the "Us" in the verse is referring to these so called "sons of God?" In other words, how do you know or prove it from the Bible? As well keep the following in mind. Genesis 11:7, "Come, let "US" go down and there and confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Does it seem probable to you that the Lord God would need the help of angels, i.e the sons of God to help Him confuse the language of man? I don't think so? Look at Genesis 11:4 where it says, "And they said, Come, let us build for ourselves a city. Notice the word "us" is used for the collective unity of man. And at vs5, it says, "And the Lord came down" And at vs6, "And the Lord said."
I would like you to notice that nobody in the Old Testament says "God the Father" because that phrase is only used after the birth of Jesus Christ. God was called the father by the OT people because He is their creator. In short, if your going to make statements even if it's your opinion at least back up your opinion with proof.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Then you have at John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and "WE" will come to him, and make "OUR" abode with him." So don't tell me that pronouns are not used because they are. I just gave you to examples.
Now, regarding Genesis 1:26 can you prove that the "Us" in the verse is referring to these so called "sons of God?" In other words, how do you know or prove it from the Bible? As well keep the following in mind. Genesis 11:7, "Come, let "US" go down and there and confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Does it seem probable to you that the Lord God would need the help of angels, i.e the sons of God to help Him confuse the language of man? I don't think so? Look at Genesis 11:4 where it says, "And they said, Come, let us build for ourselves a city. Notice the word "us" is used for the collective unity of man. And at vs5, it says, "And the Lord came down" And at vs6, "And the Lord said."
I would like you to notice that nobody in the Old Testament says "God the Father" because that phrase is only used after the birth of Jesus Christ. God was called the father by the OT people because He is their creator. In short, if your going to make statements even if it's your opinion at least back up your opinion with proof.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Is this where anti-Semitism came from?
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt intheir own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood thatthey had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had pollutedit.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thussaith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, butfor mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sightfor your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O houseof Israel.
(Jer 24:9 KJV) And I will deliver them to be removed into all thekingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, ataunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
- ?
(Ezek 36:17 KJV) Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt intheir own land, they defiled it by their ..own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
(Ezek 36:18 KJV) Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood thatthey had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had pollutedit.
(Ezek 36:22 KJV) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thussaith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, butfor mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(Ezek 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Ezek 36:31 KJV) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sightfor your iniquities and for your abominations.
(Ezek 36:32 KJV) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD,be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O houseof Israel.
(Jer 24:9 KJV) And I will deliver them to be removed into all thekingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, ataunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
- ?It is no coincidence Jews been murdered slaughtered and hated where ever they have tried to set up life.
The goal of evil one is to destroy the seed.. he tried do it to prevent Jesus (failed) and he just keeps trying and trying.
Satan isn't stupid.
so i wonder when he realizes who Jesus is? if he had known, it seems like the temptation in the wilderness is a foregone conclusion, so why bother?
and then if he had known that at the cross the power of sin and death would be destroyed, would he still have entered into Judas and brought that about?
was it not until the cross or the resurrection that Christ is revealed to Satan?
or not even yet?
the demons asked Him if He was come to torment them 'before the time' ((Matthew 8:29)) -- they know their end, but it doesn't mean they necessarily know the fullness of who the Messiah is.
hmm
or did he know, full well, and realizing his own futility, does he move to bring down the nation Israel, who God loves?
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The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.
(Exodus 14:19)
this isn't "an angel" -- it's "THE angel of God"
the first time this personage is mentioned in scripture is in Genesis -
She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her:
"You are the God who sees me,"
for she said,
"I have now seen the One who sees me"
(Genesis 16:13)
"You are the God who sees me,"
for she said,
"I have now seen the One who sees me"
(Genesis 16:13)
since it's definitely described as "The Angel" it would be an obvious abuse of scripture and of the English language to say it is God "made lower than the angels" -- that's some obviously unclear thinking on Q's part.
so in the pillar of cloud and of fire, we have the manifest presence of God - a conclusion reached both from passages in Exodus ((e.g. Ex. 13:21)) and from the first mention of "THE angel of the Lord" in Genesis, appearing to Hagar. now Hagar clearly says she has "seen God" - but scripture is clear on two things about that, one, that no one has "seen God" and two, that if you have seen Jesus Christ, you have seen God.
brothers and sisters, this is no contradiction, and there is one obvious conclusion that can be drawn.
((a conclusion i'm afraid our poor mr. puffy Q is not drawing))
. . all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
(1 Corinthians 10:3-4)
(1 Corinthians 10:3-4)
I think those are questions we will not able to have full answers .
Still while Jesus was on earth (in flesh) he was tested like any man for his human side made it possible for him to sin...
This must been evil ones goal ... tempt his human side and nullify the salvation plan.
If you really think it... he only needed tiniest notion of rebellion against God's will from Jesus (from the flesh) and the whole plan would came crushing down.
Even more scarier is the though that it would made God a liar unholy... we do not even know what that could have meant to God and all creation... God might have risked much.... If that is possible ... I do not know.
People often in my opinion underestimate the aspect of flesh in Jesus .
He was greatly weakened by it spiritually.
Otherwise as you say "why would evil one have bothered"
About Judas...
It is "clear" that after evil one failed to tempt Jesus he tried to destroy his body and prevent or slow down redemption plan.
I would see it likely that there was other plans of him to try corrupt others connection to murder of God's flesh and prevent the sacrifice Jesus made in way God wished to but he failed.
Now the Jews been hated by evil one from the time God chose them to bring his kingdom on earth (eventual salvation plan etc)
He spends much of his power to try ensure that the seed dies..
Still while Jesus was on earth (in flesh) he was tested like any man for his human side made it possible for him to sin...
This must been evil ones goal ... tempt his human side and nullify the salvation plan.
If you really think it... he only needed tiniest notion of rebellion against God's will from Jesus (from the flesh) and the whole plan would came crushing down.
Even more scarier is the though that it would made God a liar unholy... we do not even know what that could have meant to God and all creation... God might have risked much.... If that is possible ... I do not know.
People often in my opinion underestimate the aspect of flesh in Jesus .
He was greatly weakened by it spiritually.
Otherwise as you say "why would evil one have bothered"
About Judas...
It is "clear" that after evil one failed to tempt Jesus he tried to destroy his body and prevent or slow down redemption plan.
I would see it likely that there was other plans of him to try corrupt others connection to murder of God's flesh and prevent the sacrifice Jesus made in way God wished to but he failed.
Now the Jews been hated by evil one from the time God chose them to bring his kingdom on earth (eventual salvation plan etc)
He spends much of his power to try ensure that the seed dies..
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I've heard this case that the Hebrew adjective means a "compound unity." Thus, they say, the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) literally means:
First
Echad has a spectrum of meanings in the Hebrew Bible. To say it means"compound unity" puts the word in a tiny box that doesn't match its varied uses by the biblical writers. It's like saying the word elohim only refers to the true God. When, in fact, elohim is used for false gods or goddesses, angelic beings, the judges of Israel, the king of Israel, and the Messiah.
Second
The "Shema" (="Hear"; Deut 6:4) is not a creedal jewel suspended in mid-air. It exists within a theological context. It exists in the early, foundational chapters of Deuteronomy, and Deuternomy exists as the final chapter of the Chumash, the Torah. The specific placement of this crucial passage must have a bearing on how we interpret it.
Third
Yeshua told his disciples that he and the Father were "one" (John 10:30). He didn't define their oneness here. Later when he prayed to his Father on behalf of his disciples, he asked that they "may all be one, just as we are one" (John 17:21-22). Whatever this oneness may entail, we assume it doesn't mean his disciples would enter into metaphysical unity with the transcendent deity, as in Neo-Platonism or modern New Age pantheism.
Paul provides one definition of the unity of Yeshua's disciples:
"The one who joins himself to the Lord [Messiah] is one SPIRIT with him" (1 Cor 6:17).
Elsewhere, he writes of those who "are standing firm in one SPIRIT, with one MIND striving together for the faith of the Gospel" (Phil 1:27).
So, What does "Echad" mean?
The Hebrew word "Echad" appears 970 times in the Tenach(Old Testament). This includes it's feminine form "achad"
The meaning they both carry are:
"One"
By far, the most common meaning of echad (600+x) is the simple cardinalnumber "one."
In its first appearance in the Bible echad is an ordinal number and means "first":
Echad can signify "the same" or "one and the same."
Echad can denote oneness as "singleness."
At times, echad denotes a unity of purpose or effort, or a shared condition.
This passage is a common focus of attention in discussions of the Shema.
Ezekiel 37
Similarly, in Ezekiel 37 God plans one day to bring together the two rebellion-split houses of Israel and Judah. There will not be a king in the Northern Kingdom Israel and a king in the Southern Kingdom Judah. God will take their two "sticks" (symbols of their authority) and rejoin them as one scepter under "David," the future Messiah.
As originally intended, the one people will be ruled by Messiah, the One.
"Uniqueness"
Finally, echad has another nuance of meaning that sheds light on the Shema.
We saw above that echad usually denotes the number "one" (as opposed to two, three, or 10 million). There is something about one thing that is like no other — a solitary "one-ity" that highlights uniqueness, one-of-a-kind-ness. Several things are unique in the Bible.
King David, in overwhelmed prayer, after being given the privilege of leading God's redemptive program on earth, asks the Lord:
When commentators declare (without making qualifications) that "echad means compound, composite unity," they haven't done the thorough lexical study. For example, the standard Hebrew word to denote joining, unity or togetherness is "yachad", not "echad".
Here is how some Jewish versions render the Shema:
Isaac Leeser: Hear, O Israel! The Lord, our God, is the One Eternal Being.
Jewish Publication Society (1917): Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Joseph Hertz: Hear, O Israel, The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Jewish Publication Society (1985): Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
[Echad occurs in Deuteronomy at: 1:2, 3, 23; 4:42; 6:4; 12:14; 13:12; 15:7, 7;16:5; 17:2, 6, 6; 18:6; 19:5, 11, 15; 21:15, 15, 16 [Heb v. 17]; 24:5, 5, 11; 28:7, 25, 55; 32:30.]
Would you have me believe that scholarly studied Rabbis who have a greater understanding of Hebrew than either you, me or any other that have decided to learn the language as adults are wrong in their conclusions on the meaning of "echad" but you are correct for no other reason than it fits your understanding of God's nature?
When the Septuagint (LXX) renders the Shema literally, except it does not transliterate the Tetragrammaton (YHVH). Rather, it substitutes "Lord" without an article ("ho") as though the word is God's proper name.
[akoue israel, kurios ho theos hemon kurios heis estin]
"Hear, Israel: Lord our God Lord is one.
So, as you can see, for someone who claims to understand the word "echad" you have missed much of it's meaning and haven't cited a single source.
As have I.
Marc isn't the ultimate authority. And if he claims that "echad" simply means "one is a plurality" then I would say he is unlearned just as in error.
Hear, O Israel:
The LORD our God,
The LORD is a "compound unity".
This translation is then taken to be primary evidence that the "Jewish Bible" teaches the triune nature of God. In my view this interpretation of echad in the Shema isn't correct. There are three reasons why.The LORD our God,
The LORD is a "compound unity".
First
Echad has a spectrum of meanings in the Hebrew Bible. To say it means"compound unity" puts the word in a tiny box that doesn't match its varied uses by the biblical writers. It's like saying the word elohim only refers to the true God. When, in fact, elohim is used for false gods or goddesses, angelic beings, the judges of Israel, the king of Israel, and the Messiah.
Second
The "Shema" (="Hear"; Deut 6:4) is not a creedal jewel suspended in mid-air. It exists within a theological context. It exists in the early, foundational chapters of Deuteronomy, and Deuternomy exists as the final chapter of the Chumash, the Torah. The specific placement of this crucial passage must have a bearing on how we interpret it.
Third
Yeshua told his disciples that he and the Father were "one" (John 10:30). He didn't define their oneness here. Later when he prayed to his Father on behalf of his disciples, he asked that they "may all be one, just as we are one" (John 17:21-22). Whatever this oneness may entail, we assume it doesn't mean his disciples would enter into metaphysical unity with the transcendent deity, as in Neo-Platonism or modern New Age pantheism.
Paul provides one definition of the unity of Yeshua's disciples:
"The one who joins himself to the Lord [Messiah] is one SPIRIT with him" (1 Cor 6:17).
Elsewhere, he writes of those who "are standing firm in one SPIRIT, with one MIND striving together for the faith of the Gospel" (Phil 1:27).
So, What does "Echad" mean?
The Hebrew word "Echad" appears 970 times in the Tenach(Old Testament). This includes it's feminine form "achad"
The meaning they both carry are:
"One"
By far, the most common meaning of echad (600+x) is the simple cardinalnumber "one."
"Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place [maqom echad]." (Gen 1:9)
"He took one of the man's ribs [achat mitzalotayv]." (Gen 2:21)
"The man has become like one of Us [ke-achad mimmennu]." (Gen 3:22)
"We are all sons of one man [ish echad]." (Gen 42:11)
"The youngest is with our father today and one is no more." (Gen 42:13)
"First""He took one of the man's ribs [achat mitzalotayv]." (Gen 2:21)
"The man has become like one of Us [ke-achad mimmennu]." (Gen 3:22)
"We are all sons of one man [ish echad]." (Gen 42:11)
"The youngest is with our father today and one is no more." (Gen 42:13)
In its first appearance in the Bible echad is an ordinal number and means "first":
"And there was evening and there was morning, the first day [yom echad]." (Gen 1:5b)
Some expositors say "yom echad" alludes to the composite nature of the day, since it consists of an evening and morning. Yet the subsequent days are also made of an evening and a morning, but they are numbered the "second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth" days of the week (1:8, 13, 19, 23, 31). This pattern shows that echad in v. 5b means "first," not "compound (day)."The ordinal echad occurs elsewhere in Genesis:The name of the first [ha-echad] is Pishon. (2:11)On the first day [be-echad] of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible. (8:5b)
In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up. (8:13)
"Same"In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the water was dried up. (8:13)
Echad can signify "the same" or "one and the same."
Behold, they are one people [am echad] and they all have the same language [safah achat, fem.]. (Gen 11:6)They both had a dream the same night [layelah echad]. (Gen 40:5)
Pharaoh's dreams are one and the same [halom echad hu]. (Gen 41:25)
"Singularity"Pharaoh's dreams are one and the same [halom echad hu]. (Gen 41:25)
Echad can denote oneness as "singleness."
[The Passover] is to be eaten in a single house [bayit echad]." (Exod 12:46a)
"The [menorah] was a single [achat] hammered work of pure gold." (Exod 37:22b)
"They . . . cut down a branch with a single cluster of grapes [eshkol anavim echad]." (Num 13:23)
"Not a single word [davar echad] has failed of all He promised, which He promised through Moses His servant."
(1 Kings 8:56b)
"Look to Abraham your father,
And to Sarah who gave birth to you in pain;
When he was one [single man] I called him,
Then I blessed him and multipled him." (Isa 51:2)
"I will remove the iniquity of that Land in a single day [yom echad; same as Gen 1:5b] (Zech 3:9)
"Undivided Oneness""The [menorah] was a single [achat] hammered work of pure gold." (Exod 37:22b)
"They . . . cut down a branch with a single cluster of grapes [eshkol anavim echad]." (Num 13:23)
"Not a single word [davar echad] has failed of all He promised, which He promised through Moses His servant."
(1 Kings 8:56b)
"Look to Abraham your father,
And to Sarah who gave birth to you in pain;
When he was one [single man] I called him,
Then I blessed him and multipled him." (Isa 51:2)
"I will remove the iniquity of that Land in a single day [yom echad; same as Gen 1:5b] (Zech 3:9)
At times, echad denotes a unity of purpose or effort, or a shared condition.
"The people answered with one voice [kol echad].(Exod 24:3)Then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
That all of them may call on the name of YHVH,"
To serve him with one shoulder [shechem echad]." (Zeph 3:9)
"The Hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart[lev echad]."
(2 Chron 30:12)
Genesis 2:24That all of them may call on the name of YHVH,"
To serve him with one shoulder [shechem echad]." (Zeph 3:9)
"The Hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart[lev echad]."
(2 Chron 30:12)
This passage is a common focus of attention in discussions of the Shema.
"[Adam and Eve] shall become one flesh." (Gen 2:24)
Some expositors propose that our First Parents' oneness of flesh is a compound unity consisting of each other's physical being. But the verse points to the opposite. Before her creation, Eve was "in" Adam (Gen 2:22). Upon creation, she became a separated, though obviously related, distinct person.Then God reversed the operation and rejoined them in a new way, in marriage. They are no longer apart: they are one single body. Eve is not now "in" Adam, but "with" him as his counterpart [kenegdo, v. 20b]. Their unity is not composite, but singularly whole. The two, as male and female, are now one Human — one "Adam" (Gen 3:22, 24).Ezekiel 37
Similarly, in Ezekiel 37 God plans one day to bring together the two rebellion-split houses of Israel and Judah. There will not be a king in the Northern Kingdom Israel and a king in the Southern Kingdom Judah. God will take their two "sticks" (symbols of their authority) and rejoin them as one scepter under "David," the future Messiah.
"I will make them an undivided nation [goy echad] in the Land . . .
One single King [melech echad] will be king for all of them,
And they will no longer be two nations,
And they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms. "(Ezek 37:22)
Some believe this union of the two kingdoms is also a compound or composite unity of two parts. But that's precisely not the point here. Their once individual, self-willed identities will disappear; they will become one nation, indivisible, under God.One single King [melech echad] will be king for all of them,
And they will no longer be two nations,
And they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms. "(Ezek 37:22)
As originally intended, the one people will be ruled by Messiah, the One.
"Uniqueness"
Finally, echad has another nuance of meaning that sheds light on the Shema.
We saw above that echad usually denotes the number "one" (as opposed to two, three, or 10 million). There is something about one thing that is like no other — a solitary "one-ity" that highlights uniqueness, one-of-a-kind-ness. Several things are unique in the Bible.
King David, in overwhelmed prayer, after being given the privilege of leading God's redemptive program on earth, asks the Lord:
"Who is like Your people Israel,
a unique nation [goy echad] on earth?" (2 Sam 7:23)
In the future, God will return to Har Zetim with his armies and radically change Jerusalem's geography. And thata unique nation [goy echad] on earth?" (2 Sam 7:23)
"will be a unique day" [yom echad; same as Gen 1:5b]
which is known only to the LORD" . . . . (Zech 14:7)
And on that Yom Echad . . .which is known only to the LORD" . . . . (Zech 14:7)
"YHVH will be king over all the earth;
in that day YHVH will be Echad [the only one],
and his name Echad [the only one]." (Zech 14:9)
In the Song of Solomon(Songs), the young man describes his singularly peerless, inimitable, incomparable beloved:in that day YHVH will be Echad [the only one],
and his name Echad [the only one]." (Zech 14:9)
"My dove, my perfect one, is unique" [achat; fem.] (Song 6:9a)
Yachad — The Real Word for UnityWhen commentators declare (without making qualifications) that "echad means compound, composite unity," they haven't done the thorough lexical study. For example, the standard Hebrew word to denote joining, unity or togetherness is "yachad", not "echad".
"He was King in Yeshurun,
When the heads of the people were gathered,
The tribes of Israel together [yachad]." (Deut 33:5)
"My heart is turned over within Me,
All together [yachad] my compassions are kindled." (Hosea 11:8b)
"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brethren to dwell together in unity [gam yachad]!" (Ps 133:1)
In the Dead Sea Scrolls document The Community Rule (1QS, The Manual of Disciple), the group of priests and their disciples abiding at Qumran is called The Yachad: the Union, the Comm-Unity.When the heads of the people were gathered,
The tribes of Israel together [yachad]." (Deut 33:5)
"My heart is turned over within Me,
All together [yachad] my compassions are kindled." (Hosea 11:8b)
"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is
For brethren to dwell together in unity [gam yachad]!" (Ps 133:1)
"This is the rule for the men of the Yachad... "(5:1)
"...the Yachad of the eternal covenant" (5:5)
"Whoever enters the council of the Yachad enters the covenant of God" (5:7-8)
How to Translate the ShemaIn light of these sample passages, we must be open to reading the Shema with an open mind about what echad denotes. What are our options? What makes most sense, within the Bible?"...the Yachad of the eternal covenant" (5:5)
"Whoever enters the council of the Yachad enters the covenant of God" (5:7-8)
The LORD is first.
The LORD is one [God].
The LORD is the same [as whom?]
The LORD alone.
The LORD is a single [Being, Deity, Elohim].
The LORD is a unified [Being, Deity, Elohim].
The LORD is unique, one and only [God].
Given the theme of YHVH's centrality in Deuteronomy, and given the command aspect of the Shema ("and you shall love YHVH your God"), the sense of uniqueness seems most appropriate in this verse.The LORD is one [God].
The LORD is the same [as whom?]
The LORD alone.
The LORD is a single [Being, Deity, Elohim].
The LORD is a unified [Being, Deity, Elohim].
The LORD is unique, one and only [God].
Here is how some Jewish versions render the Shema:
Isaac Leeser: Hear, O Israel! The Lord, our God, is the One Eternal Being.
Jewish Publication Society (1917): Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Joseph Hertz: Hear, O Israel, The LORD is our God, the LORD is one.
Jewish Publication Society (1985): Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
[Echad occurs in Deuteronomy at: 1:2, 3, 23; 4:42; 6:4; 12:14; 13:12; 15:7, 7;16:5; 17:2, 6, 6; 18:6; 19:5, 11, 15; 21:15, 15, 16 [Heb v. 17]; 24:5, 5, 11; 28:7, 25, 55; 32:30.]
Would you have me believe that scholarly studied Rabbis who have a greater understanding of Hebrew than either you, me or any other that have decided to learn the language as adults are wrong in their conclusions on the meaning of "echad" but you are correct for no other reason than it fits your understanding of God's nature?
When the Septuagint (LXX) renders the Shema literally, except it does not transliterate the Tetragrammaton (YHVH). Rather, it substitutes "Lord" without an article ("ho") as though the word is God's proper name.
[akoue israel, kurios ho theos hemon kurios heis estin]
"Hear, Israel: Lord our God Lord is one.
So, as you can see, for someone who claims to understand the word "echad" you have missed much of it's meaning and haven't cited a single source.
As have I.
Marc isn't the ultimate authority. And if he claims that "echad" simply means "one is a plurality" then I would say he is unlearned just as in error.