Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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Eternal means never ending, forever, without end. It is you who is focusing on the wrong word. I cannot make it any clearer, the word in question is "WE". How can we have unquestionable personal assurance that WE are the ones that the verse is applied to.
How can you not see the difference? Yes, all genuine Christians are promised eternal salvation but who are the genuine Christians? Your claims of having unquestionable personal assurance is as valid as the next person's, which is nil.
You very well may have your name in the Book of Life but none of the verses presented proves this. You have proved quite well the existence of assurance but not the ability to prove individual assurance before the opening of the Book of Life. Do you actually read peoples posts completely?
How can you not see the difference? Yes, all genuine Christians are promised eternal salvation but who are the genuine Christians? Your claims of having unquestionable personal assurance is as valid as the next person's, which is nil.
You very well may have your name in the Book of Life but none of the verses presented proves this. You have proved quite well the existence of assurance but not the ability to prove individual assurance before the opening of the Book of Life. Do you actually read peoples posts completely?
E
I already Gave you the answer, The Bible tells us who0 has eternal life. I can add to it even, Jesus said whoever places their faith in him will never perish. Has eternal life, Will never die, Will live forever, and given his assurance he will raise them on the last day.
The question one must ask, is who trusts christ, and who are the non believers.
1. As I asked you earlier, Do they trust Christ for salvation, our not.
2. If they believe their salvation is dependent on anything other than christ (believing salvation can be lost is one clue one does not fully trust Christ) then they are not believers. And thus, have never seen life, lost alone have eternal life.
The question one must ask, is who trusts christ, and who are the non believers.
1. As I asked you earlier, Do they trust Christ for salvation, our not.
2. If they believe their salvation is dependent on anything other than christ (believing salvation can be lost is one clue one does not fully trust Christ) then they are not believers. And thus, have never seen life, lost alone have eternal life.
Matthew 11:28-31
[FONT="]28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Have you done this yet? Its the first step.
Ephesians 1:16-23
[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Then, you can pray and ask for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ.
That should probably do it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.[/FONT]
[FONT="]30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Have you done this yet? Its the first step.
Ephesians 1:16-23
[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,[/FONT]
[FONT="]23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Then, you can pray and ask for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ.
That should probably do it.[/FONT]
I made no reference to "JW". I wrote about an "anointed Jehovah Witness". There is a great bit of difference between the two. A JW hopes to be saved, an "anointed" Jehovah Witness knows he is saved as part of the 144,000 who will be transported to heaven as opposed to the "great crowd" who will live here on Earth. They are the only ones allowed to partake of the bread and juice during communion.
Their reasoning is like yours and Grandpa, they just know.
Seems like someones unquestionable personal assurance is not so unquestionable after all. Would you not agree?
Their reasoning is like yours and Grandpa, they just know.
Seems like someones unquestionable personal assurance is not so unquestionable after all. Would you not agree?
No sure of the question? Its either yes or no.
Does the verse apply to you?
Did you factor this verse into your claim of unquestionable knowledge of your future state?
Are you immune to fooling yourself?
They are not trick questions. Someone with unquestionable knowledge of his assurance should easily answer them.
Does the verse apply to you?
Did you factor this verse into your claim of unquestionable knowledge of your future state?
Are you immune to fooling yourself?
They are not trick questions. Someone with unquestionable knowledge of his assurance should easily answer them.
U
This scripture quote is about the state of people's heart, in that we can never really know the depth of the heart deceitfulness.
This is not related to knowing that one has eternal life, it is not a matter of heart knowledge it is a spiritual birth, one is either born again or one is not.
The born again person is not deceived ...because His Spirit testifies to our spirit that we are born again.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
NIV
This is not related to knowing that one has eternal life, it is not a matter of heart knowledge it is a spiritual birth, one is either born again or one is not.
The born again person is not deceived ...because His Spirit testifies to our spirit that we are born again.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
NIV
Jeremiah 17:9 is certainly not speaking of the "state" of the heart but the nature of man's heart. Because of the fall man's heart is full of deceit and should never be trusted. We can easily falsely convince ourselves into believing that the Spirit has testified with our spirit that we are a child of God. This happens everyday.
The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" does not appear in any post-biblical literature until the early part of the 16th century. The concept was derived through deductive logic upon the teaching of a slightly earlier concept—that God is absolutely sovereign, a doctrine that is refuted throughout much of the Bible!
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”
The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.
Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage shall have the blood upon their hands of those who lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result.
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”
The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.
Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage shall have the blood upon their hands of those who lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result.
Apostasy
Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12
Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13
Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10
Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22
Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17
Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3
See Antichrist
Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6
See Backsliders; Reprobacy
Instances of:
Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14
Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18
Amaziah
2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27
Disciples
Joh_6:66
Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18
Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20
Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15
See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel
(Source: Nave’s Topical Bible)
My understanding is very different. My understanding is that we are the "body" of Christ through grace. We will reign and rule as Jesus' "hands and feet" in heaven...that the white throne room, book of Life( because we are saved by His blood, not the commandments) and the New Earth will be for Jesus' chosen Jews...but ALL will be perfect.( I'm not confused at all that we should not try our best to obey the commandments...it's just impossible...this the need for Christ.)
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