why would millennial kingdom not be literal?

Snoozy · Dec 1, 2017

why not brother Marc?

i know u dont hate dispensationalists but many on here dont like dispensationalism i dont get it. i think rightly dividing the word of truth is extremely important.

Ahwatukee · Dec 1, 2017

In all seriousness are you even able to understand scripture at all? Even after you are shown the error you continue in that same error. You continue to take the scripture above out of context i.e. you just list the part about "without parables Jesus did not speak" and you conveniently leave out who this was being directed to.

Jesus made perfectly clear that he spoke parables to that generation of Israel and regarding this scripture says:

"The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied,
“Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Notice that in response to the disciples' question, he tells them that the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given to them (the disciples), which would extend to the church. And what was the reason that he spoke to that generation of Israel in parables? It was in fulfillment of the following prophecy through Isaiah:

"In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "

Then following that he reiterates to his disciples what he previously said regarding them and the parables:

"But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear."

So please stop using the claim that Jesus spoke in parables to infer that we--the church--could not know what the word of God is saying or that it has some other spiritual meaning that most believers don't see. For it is not to the church that he was speaking in parables to, but to that generation of Israel in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy.

In a way, you are kind of like them, ever hearing but never understanding; ever seeing but never perceiving. And that because you continue to take out of context the reference to Jesus speaking in parables.

Stop attempting to make the word of God as being something that we as believers can't understand and that because of all the so-called spiritual fluff behind it. Read it at face value and rightly divide the word of God.

I say this that you might consider

MarcR · Dec 1, 2017

garee said:

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, ““I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of A THOUSAND.”” This passage, in short, simply suggests the truth that man can in no way challenge the ways and precepts of God.

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, ““Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become A THOUSAND, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.””

This passage is expressed in such a manner to in some way describe the great standing, wealth and supernatural power that is found in them that are God’s. God magnifies them in such a manner that the world cannot remotely comprehend. The expressions thus indicate magnitude:

1 = 1,000
A small one = A strong nation
8888888888888888888
Paul the Apostle uses the figure ‘‘ten thousand’’ in 1 Corinthians 4:15 to impress a spiritual truth, saying, ““For though ye have TEN THOUSAND instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”” What Paul was simply saying was, that, ‘‘though ye have numerous instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers’’

Paul uses the same principle in 1 Corinthians 14:19 to advocate wisdom in relation to the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, saying, ““in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than TEN THOUSAND words in an unknown tongue.”” Paul here instructs the Corinthians that it is better to speak a little in a tongue that is understood than to speak numerous words in an unknown tongue which is misunderstood.

Micah asks a question in Micah 6:7, which he then answers in verse 8:

Q. ““Will the LORD be pleased with THOUSANDS of rams, or with TEN THOUSANDS of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?””

A. ““He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?””

Isaiah asks a similar question in Isaiah 1:11, only he substitutes the terms ““thousands”” and ““ten thousands”” with the word multitude, asking, ““To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.””
What the Lord required in these two instances, as he still does today, was NOT multiple physical external sacrifices but rather real true personal spiritual internal sacrifices. The terms ““thousands”” and ““ten thousands”” in Micah therefore figuratively represents ‘‘many’’ or ‘‘numerous’’ or, in agreement with Isaiah, ‘‘multiple’’.

The number one thousand is also figuratively used in Amos 5:2-4 to prophetically describe the judgment which awaited the rebellious house of natural Israel. Again, it does not denote a literal figure but rather the type, degree and enormity of judgment that would befall Israel. Amos 5:1-4 says, ““The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by A THOUSAND shall leave AN HUNDRED, and that which went forth by AN HUNDRED shall leave TEN, to the house of Israel.””

Such numbers are occasionally used in Scripture to symbolize and emphasize the magnification or the minimizing of specific Divine blessings or judgments. The descending multiples of 1,000, 100 and 10 are employed here as symbols or figures to signify an impending reality, rather than representing any precise numerical prediction. Such popular numbers are purposely chosen to, in some way, impress the considerable degree of judgment approaching. The figure ‘‘one thousand’’ here (like the other two numbers) is thus a common figure used to describe the serious impending wrath.

The reverse idea is also employed in ascending scale to describe spiritual principles / ideas and Divine truth throughout Scripture. This is seen in the round figures of 1,000, 10,000 and 144,000. They are used as common and complete numbers and carry an undoubted symbolic usage.

Conclusion

From the many explicit passages in Scripture, which we have studied, we see a consistent pattern with the use of both the terms ‘‘one thousand’’ or ‘‘a thousand’’. Like that of ‘‘ten thousand’’, it is repeatedly used throughout the Word to describe an idea, reality, principle or truth rather than a specific number. In saying so, it is normally used to impress the idea of a large, vast or innumerable amount or time period. We must therefore pause a moment to acknowledge this definite fact before rushing directly into examining the subject of ‘‘a thousand years’’ and more particularly Revelation 20.

A THOUSAND YEARS

The figure ‘‘a thousand years’’ is employed ten times in Scripture –– twice in the Old Testament and eight times in the New Testament. Significantly, of the eight mentions in the New, six are found in the same book of the Bible –– Revelation. And of even greater note, all are disproportionately found together within the same chapter –– Revelation 20. The two other New Testament references are found in the book of 2 Peter. In all the references, they indicate a large unspecific indefinite time period.

The two Old Testament passages are found in Psalm 90 and Ecclesiastes 6. And in both references the figure ‘‘a thousand years’’ is used in a symbolic or figurative sense to denote an indefinite time-span. The first mention is in Psalm 90:3-5, where we read, ““For A THOUSAND YEARS in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.””
This passage is often misguidedly advanced by Premillennialists as proof of a literal physical future earthly millennium. Such people confidently advance it in such a way, as if it states, ‘‘For a thousand years in thy sight are but as tomorrow which is yet to come. However, a careful reading of this inspired narrative reveals that it rather in stark contrast declares, ““For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.”” This passage therefore does not in the slightest allude to the future, never mind to some supposed impending earthly post Second Advent temporal period, but clearly to the PAST. This passage simply reveals profound truth about God and His infinite view of time rather than any misconceived earthly idea about a future millennium.

A ‘‘thousand years’’ is here used to describe God’s eternal view of time, which is in stark contrast to man’s limited understanding. This text teaches us that time is nothing with the Lord. God lives in eternity and His perspective of time far exceeds the finite mind of man. A ‘‘thousand years’’ in this life is but a flash in the light of eternity. This reading goes on then to describe the solemn reality of the fleetingness of time and the brevity of life, saying, ““we spend our years as a tale that is told”” (v 9).

No wonder the Psalmist humbly prays to God, ““teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.””

In Ecclesiastes 6:3,6-7 we find the second Old Testament reference to a thousand years. Here the term is simply used to represent an idea rather than outlining a specific measurable period of time. It reads, ““If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he……Yea, though he live A THOUSAND YEARS twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? All the labour of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.””

This text is not remotely suggesting that a person could actually live to be a thousand years multiplied by two (or 2,000 years), such is, and has always been since the fall, a naturally impossibility. Rather, the text expresses a deep spiritual truth that even if someone lives to an incomprehensible age outside of Christ and hope, this life is completely meaningless. The term a 1000 multiplied by 2 therefore represents a hypothetically number, which spiritually impresses the important reality of the brevity and futility of carnal life. No man in Scripture, or since, has ever lived to the age of 2,000 years old.

Interestingly, the only place outside of Revelation 20 that the term a thousand years is mentioned in the New Testament is in 2 Peter 3. There once again, it is significantly used in an entirely figurative sense. In this chapter, Peter is specifically addressing the cynics who live in the last days that doubt the appearing of the Lord at His Second Advent and indeed harbor the foolish notion that He will not come at all. It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters, saying, ““there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”” (2 Peter 3:3-4).

Peter, however, says in response, ““For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as A THOUSAND YEARS, and A THOUSAND YEARS as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”” (vv 5-9).

This familiar passage closely parallels the reading that we have just analyzed in Psalm 90, indicating the same spiritual truth –– that God is not limited to time. Again, notably, the contrast between one and one thousand is employed to simply represent an important divine truth.

Some theologians mistakenly attempt to use this passage to argue that one of God’s eternal days represents a literal thousand earthly years and that the time-span commences immediately subsequent to the Second Advent. However, they do err in their assumption, in that; this text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3 does not in anyway indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. Peter is simply reminding such people that time are absolutely nothing to the King of glory. He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state.

It is in this context that he addresses these misguided doubters. Peter says in response, ““beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day”” (v 8).

Peter thus outlines two distinct contrasting time equations in this passage for the sole purpose of expressing a deep spiritual truth. Notwithstanding, and not surprisingly, the Premillennialist are swift to selectively advance the first aspect of this calculation as supposed evidence that one of God’s Divine eternal heavenly days represents a thousand literal temporal earthly years. However, whilst they unquestionably address, and happily literalize, the first part of this calculation they are exceedingly careful to completely side step the second part of the sum. Evidently, such is for the reason that it doesn’t fit their flawed hyper-literalist mode of interpretation.

If the literalist mode of interpretation were applied to the second aspect of this sum it would reveal a completely divergent computation than that established in part one. A thousand of God’s Divine eternal heavenly years expressly representing only one literal earthly day –– which seemingly contradicts the first.

If

1 heavenly day = 1000 literal earthly years.

then

365.25 heavenly days (or 1 heavenly year) = 365,250 literal earthly years (365.25 x 1000).

then

1000 heavenly years = 365,250,000 literal earthly years (365.25 x 1000 x 1000).
however, God says in the same passage that:

1000 heavenly years = 1 earthly day.

If this passage is to be interpreted literally, as the Premillennialists often demand, then a thousand of God’s eternal years represents exactly three hundred and sixty five million human years. The sum total of this calculation poignantly highlights the folly of the selective (largely unchallenged) hyper literalist interpretation of 2 Peter 3 and many other similar passages.

Who is right? Either Scripture is here seriously contradicting itself or the Premillennialists are gravely out of order in their hyper-literalist interpretation. Frankly, they must concede that Peter is not in the slightest outlining an exact measure of time; rather, he is simply expressing an important eternal truth –– time is nothing with God. Therefore, the Bible student can no more argue that one of God’s eternal days represents a literal thousand (365.25 day) earthly years than he can promote a thousand of God’s heavenly days too literally represent one literal actual (365.25 day) earthly year –– the dogmatism is clearly irrational.

THE ‘‘THOUSAND YEARS’’ IN REVELATION 20

The six mention a thousand years are concurrently found together in Revelation 20:1-8, which says, ““And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him A THOUSAND YEARS, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till THE THOUSAND YEARS should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - period), neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ A THOUSAND YEARS. But the rest of the dead lived not again until THE THOUSAND YEARS were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him A THOUSAND YEARS. And when THE THOUSAND YEARS are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.””

The word ‘‘millennium’’ here is of Latin origin meaning ‘‘a thousand years.’’ The comparable word used in the original New Testament Greek for the same is ‘‘Chiliad.’’

It is worth reminding ourselves again that the expression a ‘‘thousand years’’ comes up six times in the book of Revelation, which is two more time than the whole of Scripture put together. Of the four other references in Scripture that we have previously examined, two are in the Old and two are in the New Testament. Significantly, in ALL the other four previous occasions, the term is figuratively used to denote ‘‘a long time period’’. This finding, as we have discovered, is in complete accord with the consistent use of the general expression ‘‘a thousand’’ in Scripture. Such is repeatedly employed to denote ‘‘a large number’’ or ‘‘an untold amount.’’ Also, of the four previous mentions of a ‘‘thousand years,’’ we have found none to explicitly or implicitly teach that there is going to be a literal ‘‘thousand years’’ reign of Christ on earth nor a coinciding literal ‘‘thousand years’’ binding of the devil. Neither is there any other passage in Scripture that indicates such a teaching.

Of the six mentions of a ‘‘thousand years’’ in Revelation, all are found together in the same chapter –– the one currently under examination –– Revelation 20. And at that, in six consecutive verses of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. Quite frankly, and in particular reference to the actual figure, this chapter is the sole source for arguing for a literal ‘‘thousand years’’ reign of Christ on earth and a literal ‘‘thousand years’’ binding of the devil. Therefore, nobody involved in this overall debate can downplay the significance of this important chapter.

In addition to the unquestionable pattern already established, we must also remind ourselves of the chapter’s setting. Revelation 20 sits in the most symbolic book of the Bible; a book that is saturated in numerology and the most figurative language in Scripture. We must therefore examine the chapter in such a manner and interpret it in such a figurative context less error would arise in its overall interpretation.

William E. Cox in his book ‘‘Biblical Studies in Final Things’’ says, ““It is self-evident that this lone passage dealing with the millennium is couched in a book of the Bible literally filled with symbols, numerology, figures of speech, poetic language, spiritual lessons couched in Old Testament terminology, etc. Although this is true the very word ‘‘revelation’’ in verse 1 of chapter 1 means ‘‘unveiling.’’ This verse of the Revelation also informs us that this unveiling was ““signified”” to John. This word means that the message, or unveiling, was given in symbols, or figures. So, there is something amiss when a symbol which was given to unveil God’s plan becomes a veil of obscurity”” (p.158).

We have no reason therefore to interpret ‘‘a thousand years’’ any different than the consistent pattern already seen or to take it as anything other than a symbolic figure used to describe a long period of time. We must therefore conclude that the ‘‘thousand years’’ expression employed in this chapter is not a literal period of time or a future millennial kingdom but a figurative term and a spiritual reign which is currently in progress in the lives of all those who love, the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord –– whether in heaven or in earth. THIS is in keeping with the rest of Scripture.

garee,

This is an excellent study.

The NT, however is written in Greek. Admittedly Koine Greek has a lot of Hebrew idiom superimposed on it; but it is still a much more precise language than Hebrew. If we were dealing with OT Scripture, your post would give excellent guidance.

The tendency in the New Testament is to use flag words [ like, as, symbol, sign,etc.] when a non-literal interpretation is intended. No such flag word is used in connection with Jesus' thousand year reign. Therefore a literal interpretation seems appropriate.

carl11 · Dec 1, 2017

The 1000 yrs mentioned in Rev. 20 is not a literal number because you have a beginning and end with in regards to that of Satan and you have a 1000 yrs where the true are with Christ in the heavenly and it has no ending, but yet it has a beginning. Besides the true believers will be with Christ forever as described in Ps. 37:18, 29. So in this regards this number in no way is a literal number but rather a spiritual number.

abcdef · Dec 1, 2017

MarcR said:

If it was all literal,

The key and chain are a material substance, maybe like metal, that will hold a spirit. v 1

The binding is putting the material chain around the spirit, v 2

The abyss, is a real place somewhere on this planet? Or under it or somewhere? v 3

The thrones are literal, and people without heads sit on them. v 4

They reign with Jesus for 1000 years, then that's it, they stop reigning.

The first resurrection is the first one where Jesus resurrected. v 5

The Satan is released from his material prison, v 7 (New York state pen, maybe, Texas even worse, Guantanamo?)

Satan, a spirit being, deceives Magog v 8, but how? What is the deception? What is Satan's form, how does he talk? And who does he talk to?

Is he a free form full torso vaporous apparition? like Ghostbusters?

Magog apparently must become a recognized nation, a real country, with a capital city? In order for them to be deceived.

It must be a big country to surround Jerusalem.

TOOOOOOO many problems with a strictly literal understanding.

====

The answer is that some of the things are literal, and some things are symbolic.

The answer is to know the difference.

=====

garee · Dec 3, 2017

I am not sure what you mean by more precise? I understand the Old and new complement each other and the spiritual understanding of one must be compared to any other..

The word thousand denotes a unknown because God does not give the day or hour .He desires we walk by faith the unseen (he comes as a thief in the night as in the time of Noah ) and neither does he number people for the same principle the law of faith

Like David did when he was incited by the father of lies as a lesson for us to trust God not seen and not walk by sight as do the pagan nations of the world. When numbers are given, men are quick to fill them in, and soon they can run out of room (.Like the number 1444,000 and the JW's)

Like in the use of the word 1444,000. A word to represent all whose names will be found in the lambs book of life. A great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Then when a person tries to separate the Jewish nation from all nations the parable remains a parable without the applied understanding hid from natural man or at least that is how I view it today.

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

Because of the difference in the measure of man and the measurement of God the literal measurement is many times used to convey more than that which is seen. Like in the use of the word tribe used to describe the bride of Christ the Christians the new name He named His people .Previously calling them Jew of Israel in respect to those born again of the Spirit of Christ..having nothing to do with a body of death as if God was a respecter of persons.

It would appear to be two different kinds of measurement when looking at the parables . The golden reed I would think would represent the spiritual understanding hid while the measurement of men supplies the signified number to represent the whole City (Christian) as to its residents given rise meaning from the word Christian (residents of the city of Christ) the new name God named promised to name His people in Acts .

And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.Rev 21:15

Twelve time that measurement of men gives us the number of His bride a number no man could count as the measurement of God. .

I would think because there is one author God can interpreter what he precisely wants to say in Hebrew or Greek. If he is using a word as a flag word to signify it in order the hide the spiritual understanding in one place it would apply to all language that is signified.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Rev 7:3

4591 semaino {say-mah'-ee-no}
from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation); TDNT - 7:262,1015; v
AV - signify 6; 6
1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate 2) to make known

The whole book of Revelation is signified in that way .This would include the word thousand as it is used in parables that take the temporal things seen and and compare them to the eternal not seen.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

garee · Dec 3, 2017

abcdef said:

I would agree a literal chain cannot hold a spirit it can hold a man. But even then when used in that way we must look to the spiritual understanding.

Loosening from the chain did not free the person. It was not until Christ applied the gospel key (Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.) It opened the gates of hell and released the person as a new creation.

Typifying the legion which always comes up and never one demon at a time , it enter a swine to represent the lost It shows the power of the gospel key to bind the legion loosening one who was lost.

Ropes are used the same way in various parables like with Samson.. .

Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.Mar 5:3

louis · Dec 3, 2017

From my understanding of scriptures, after the 1,260 days of great tribulation, when the faithful remnant who are still alive receive a blessing on day 1335 (Daniel 12:12), is when what I refer to as "the Big Split" occurs.
Those who are the Lords people then (the remnant) will be caught up spiritually to the Lord, while the rest of the world (the faithless masses, and worshipers of the beast's system), the Lord will evacuate from, thereby leaving them in total darkness (Isaiah 60:2). This is approximately when the Lord gathers His faithful from the four corners of the earth (Isaiah 60:4), and has them transported to the Middle East (Isaiah 60:4).
Because the faithless among the nations will have no further Illumination from the Lord, they will then come to the faithful in the Middle East for illumination (Isaiah 60:3; 2:2).
The faithless nations who do not go to the faithful in the Middle East for their illumination to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, will receive no rain, and will experience plague (Zechariah 14:16-18).
It is these faithless nations children who will become the Gog and Magog nations who will contend with the faithfuls children at the conclusion of the millennium reign on earth.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

valiant · Dec 3, 2017

MarcR said:

garee,

This is an excellent study.

The NT, however is written in Greek. Admittedly Koine Greek has a lot of Hebrew idiom superimposed on it; but it is still a much more precise language than Hebrew. If we were dealing with OT Scripture, your post would give excellent guidance.

The tendency in the New Testament is to use flag words [ like, as, symbol, sign,etc.] when a non-literal interpretation is intended. No such flag word is used in connection with Jesus' thousand year reign. Therefore a literal interpretation seems appropriate.

but the ancients did not use large round numbers literally,

Depleted · Dec 3, 2017

Snoozy said:

i honestly didnt even know that people existed who didnt think the 1000 year reign of Jesus was not a literal 1000 years on earth. only after i got on the computer i heard about it for the first time. this is the truth.

i think its literal but if someone were to prove to me its not from the bible id believe it of course.

but i wanna ask all of u who dont think its literal, why would it not be? is there a single reason for not taking the millennial kindgom as a literal kingdom on earth? any biblical reason whatsoever?? or is it just that people dont like the idea of it? whats the problem here?

Only one. Are you saying Jesus doesn't reign now?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 3, 2017

Snoozy said:

What you sill see if you stick around long enough is that those who do not like it do not understand it. Nor have the desire to figure out what it really is, They have this distorted view of what it is, most likely a view they were brought up with.

louis · Dec 3, 2017

Depleted said:

It isn't until after the 1,260 days of travail, when the Lord will commence to reign on earth (Revelation 12:10), which is also after the two witnesses 1260 days of testifying in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:15).

Revelation 12:10 [FONT=&quot]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[/FONT]Revelation 11:15 [FONT=&quot]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.[/FONT]

abcdef · Dec 3, 2017

garee said:

Yes, the chain is spiritual.

It means that Satan was limited. But how?

He was not able to deceive the nations to surround Jerusalem until after the mill.

He could still cause sin in the world, just like always, just like now.

But the one thing that he could not do was lie to cause people to attack Jerusalem restored to Israel.

Because Israel was not restored to Jerusalem until the times of the gentiles was over.

Israel was scattered among the gentile nations until restoration.

The first thing that Satan does, when released is attack Jerusalem.

That is what the chain WAS.

(But now that Israel is restored to Jerusalem, see the gentile armies surrounding Jerusalem).

MarcR · Dec 3, 2017

abcdef said:

Satan is a created angelic being. God, who created him, will know how yo restrain him.
The key and chain, if material, can be of a substance outside our awareness; or if immaterial can still function literally.
The pit is literal and its location is undisclosed; which is fine with me since I have no desire to visit.
If you read v4 carefully you will see that those (undisclosed) on the thrones are distinct from the souls of the beheaded.
Indeed Jesus was the first to be resurrected; but, in v5, the first resurrection refers to the raptured church without reference to when that occurred.
Whether Satan's prison is to be material or immaterial is of no concern. It is real, and all that is necessary to restrain Satan.
Magog is Russia and may include Geogia and Azerbejan. God has not seen fit to disclose the deception and is under no obligation to do so.
I have no problem with the concept of God working supernaturally and still literally. Creation itself was supernatural.

Ahwatukee · Dec 3, 2017

Hello Louis,

Both of the scriptures above in reference to the 7th trumpet/3rd woe the result being Satan angels cast out of heaven.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God regarding the eating of the fruit, the authority of the earth went from mankind to Satan, as can be seen from the following:

"Then the devil led Him up to a high place and showed Him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. "I will give You authority over all these kingdoms and all their glory," he said. "For it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish." - Luke 4:5-6

Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven is a part of the process of the authority of the earth and their kingdoms reverting from Satan back to God and mankind.

Jesus doesn't return to the earth to end the age until after the seven bowls have been poured out, therefore he does not return to the earth at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, but it is apart of that reversion process. It is not until after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age that he physically reigns on the earth. As proof of this, at the pouring out of the 6th bowl Jesus interjects the following:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

When Jesus does return to the earth, Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss so that he cannot deceive the nations during that time, which is also apart of the reversion process. It is not until the end of the thousand years when Satan is released from the Abyss that he leads one last rebellion and is then thrown into the lake of fire, completing that process.

louis · Dec 3, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Awatahkee,
You should read my posts more carefully, I never said the Lord returns to the earth at the conclusion of the 1,260 days of travailing, after which the faithful receive a blessing on day 1,335.
What I said was that the faithful are spiritually caught up to the Lord on day 1,335, through whom the Lord will commence to reign on the earth (Daniel 7:27). And by the way, the Lord is here now, where two or more are gathered in His name (Matthew 18:20).

Daniel 7:27 [FONT=&quot]And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.[/FONT]

Matthew 18:20 [FONT=&quot]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.[/FONT]

louis · Dec 3, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

The Lord coming as a thief in the night is the "Big Split" as I refer to it, where the faithless will no longer receive the Lords illumination, while the faithful will be spiritually caught up to the Lord.

Depleted · Dec 3, 2017

louis said:

So God does not reign?

Sorry. You can post a billion words as to why you think otherwise, but I will always believe the Lord reigned, reigns, will reign, and is eternally sovereign.

Snoozy · Dec 3, 2017

Depleted said:

God reigns. but Jesus is not here visibly on earth yet. God is allowing the world to continue as is for now.

abcdef · Dec 3, 2017

MarcR said:

True

Why would God need a "chain" at all?

From the throne of heaven, the earth would be the pit.

There are still souls running around with no heads, "literally".

This I agree with.

This I disagree with.

As far as I can tell, this is Jesus' resur. of 33 ad.

Exactly, not a literal prison.

So it is symbolic?

Agree

So it is literally supernatural, or is it supernatural literally?

why would millennial kingdom not be literal?

Is the millennial kingdom a literal earthly kingdom

Yes

No

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