Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[Mercy4u]

I asked at the beginning of this thread if the Biblical text actually states eternal security, or if it is a doctrine that comes from the overall teaching of Scripture.

I take it from your statement: "The rest of the bible is read and interpreted through the truth of eternal security"that you are saying that the doctrine of eternal security comes from the overall teaching of Scripture. Then from that overall teaching/understanding of scripture we need to interpret the Bible according to this truth.

Am I understanding correctly what you were trying to say here?

Eternal security is a dogmatic, clearly stated doctrine.

Does not come into condemnation..

Will never perish..

No condemnation...

Sealed FOR the day of redemption..

I give them eternal life..

that they shall KNOW they have eternal life..

Clear, dogmatic, unambiguous language.

So all the warning verses that require some study and knowledge of His word and are a bit "tough" to understand are/have to be read through this truth.

So the 'warning' verses seen through this truth, speak of our service and our discipleship. Not our salvation and the free Gift of Gods grace.

If we don't advance in His plan there are major consequences for believers. Divine discipline,loss of reward,reaping what we sow, a miserable life, shame at his Bema seat, saved As if through fire and more.

It just isn't loss of salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I guess I will just have to stop: I really don't get it:

This verse - John 6:35 - says exactly what I have been saying: When I believe in Jesus I never die, I live forever, I never hunger,etc,. and I have eternal life.

Yes, and amen! I agree with the verse 100% all the way!

But does the verse say clearly that once a person believes at a point in time, that he will always be believing? And if a person is not believing, the "whoever" at the beginning of the verse does not apply to him.

And you can define "eternal life" as something that God cannot, or should not, or will not take away from someone, but the Biblical text does not define eternal life that way.

I do not get it.

’’so when you believe, You WILL never die, You WILL never hunger, YOU-HAVE (it does not say might have, it says you have in your possession) Eternal life. You WILL be ressurected by Christ vs being delivered to him for judgment, You WILL never be lost.

He did not mean it at all? You can have all these things in your possession, and it can still be lost if you do not do something (in your case continue to have faith?)

That to me is a contradiction. If jesus did not mean all those things were assured, he should have told them, You will have all of these things as long as you continue to (insert whatever the condition is)

 

[Chester]

Then according to what you just said, your not eternally saved, nor do you believe it, Because you have placed a condition on you being “eternally saved” which means you do not even believe you are eternally saved, You believe YOU MAY BE eternally saved. That is about as far as you can go.

Ha! I believe I am eternally saved because the Bible says I am eternally saved if I am believing in Christ.

I might not be eternally saved by your definition of "eternally saved"

I said, "I am eternally saved . . . because I am believing in Jesus" -
But you say You believe YOU MAY BE eternally saved.
That is not what I believe, but if you want to think I believe that, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Close, but not quite! Ephesians 1:13 says that after we heard and believed, we were sealed. It doesn't say we were "saved" at the moment we believed.

Having pointed that out, I do of course believe that I was "saved" at the moment in time that I first believed. But my present assurance and salvation is not based alone on the moment in time that I myself took the action to believe in Christ.

So your sealed but your not saved?

Was noah not saved the moment God SEALED the door?

what did paul say in eph 1.

We were chosen (To her holy and without blame) (vs 5)

He made us accepted (vs 6)

Blessed us with every spiritual blessing (vs 3)

We have been redeemed haven been forgiven of all sin (vs 7)

We have been again blessed with all things, and predestined according to the riches of his grace (how much grace is enough grace?

We have been sealed with the HS who is the pledge of all these things.

what more does a child of God need to know he is secure in Christ?

 

[Chester]

I do not get it.

’’so when you believe, You WILL never die, You WILL never hunger, YOU-HAVE (it does not say might have, it says you have in your possession) Eternal life. You WILL be ressurected by Christ vs being delivered to him for judgment, You WILL never be lost.

He did not mean it at all? You can have all these things in your possession, and it can still be lost if you do not do something (in your case continue to have faith?)

That to me is a contradiction. If jesus did not mean all those things were assured, he should have told them, You will have all of these things as long as you continue to (insert whatever the condition is)

Ah! EG, I understand your frustration with me! I just don't get it, I guess.

But I do get it!

It doesn't make any "this worldly" sense at all! When I believe in Christ, he gives and gives and forgives and forgives and blesses and blesses (not because of me, but because of the shed blood of His Son!)

Me? You think I will stop believing in Jesus? No way! Such a deal as I got you won't find me giving it up!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ha! I believe I am eternally saved because the Bible says I am eternally saved if I am believing in Christ.

Then you do not believe you are eternally saved, At best, you believe you MAY be eternally saved. Your salvation is based on you doing something, whcih means it is based on you and your power and nOt God and his promise.

I might not be eternally saved by your definition of "eternally saved"

Eternal means forever, there is no other interpretation. You either have it or you do not.

I said, "I am eternally saved . . . because I am believing in Jesus" -
But you say You believe YOU MAY BE eternally saved.
That is not what I believe, but if you want to think I believe that, you are entitled to your opinion.

You believe you are eternallly saved as long as you (insert whatever you think you must do)

thus your salvation is based on you, not God. Also. You do not think or really have faith God is trustworthy, or you would never even think you could lose faiht in him..

I call this BELIEF, not faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah! EG, I understand your frustration with me! I just don't get it, I guess.

But I do get it!

It doesn't make any "this worldly" sense at all! When I believe in Christ, he gives and gives and forgives and forgives and blesses and blesses (not because of me, but because of the shed blood of His Son!)

Me? You think I will stop believing in Jesus? No way! Such a deal as I got you won't find me giving it up!

I am not the one saying my salvation or eternal life is something I HAVE, but dependent on whether I do something or not.

My frustration is I wonder why you do not trust God? Why are you trusting in your ability to continue in faith and not Godsa ability to keep you in faith.

 

[Chester]

Eternal security is a dogmatic, clearly stated doctrine.

Does not come into condemnation..

Will never perish..

No condemnation...

Sealed FOR the day of redemption..

I give them eternal life..

that they shall KNOW they have eternal life..

Clear, dogmatic, unambiguous language.

So all the warning verses that require some study and knowledge of His word and are a bit "tough" to understand are/have to be read through this truth.

So the 'warning' verses seen through this truth, speak of our service and our discipleship. Not our salvation and the free Gift of Gods grace.

If we don't advance in His plan there are major consequences for believers. Divine discipline,loss of reward,reaping what we sow, a miserable life, shame at his Bema seat, saved As if through fire and more.

It just isn't loss of salvation.

Those are all promises to the believer, not to the unbeliever.

 

[Hizikyah]

I am not the one saying my salvation or eternal life is something I HAVE, but dependent on whether I do something or not.

My frustration is I wonder why you do not trust God? Why are you trusting in your ability to continue in faith and not Godsa ability to keep you in faith.

I feel this is a blanket statment, implying somehow that doing His will is elf trust... Does anyone that seeks to do the will of the Creator then not trust Him? What happened to faiuth without works is dead?

 

[Mercy4u]

Those are all promises to the believer, not to the unbeliever.

Have a great day Chester.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those are all promises to the believer, not to the unbeliever.

Yep. The believer. The one who has faith, not the wish washy person who claims to trust God, but does not really. Who will eventually walk away, because hs faith was in something else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I feel this is a blanket statment, implying somehow that doing His will is elf trust... Does anyone that seeks to do the will of the Creator then not trust Him? What happened to faiuth without works is dead?

When did we get into doing works?

But since you asked,If I am doing works to maintain salvation, Is my trust in God and his promises, or in my works?

 

[Chester]

Yep. The believer. The one who has faith, not the wish washy person who claims to trust God, but does not really. Who will eventually walk away, because hs faith was in something else.

I agree! No problem with what you say here!

Hey - we agree on a few things! (Maybe most things!!

 

[Sagart]

You Do understanding my point, It has been given to you You can not see it BECAUSE you do not interpret that way.

So far in this thread, no verses from the Bible have been posted that say clearly that once a person is saved he (she) is always saved? Some verses have been taken out of context from English translations and posted, but when the Greek texts from which they were translated were considered in context, it was VERY obvious that those verses actually taught that the believer’s salvation is conditional and dependent upon his/hers continued belief in, and obedience to, Christ Jesus our Lord.

But hey, one more time. John 6.

WHoever believes in him will NEVER DIE, LIVE FOREVER, Will NEVER HUNGEER AND NEVER THIRST, Will Never BE LOST, will BE RESSURECTED BY HIM (vs be delivered to him) and HAS ETERNAL LIFE

so. Taken literally, there you have a passage where jesus gave you what you ask.

but you claim this is not true, So your the one making it an interpretation issue, Not me.

In as much as the author of this post knows full well that Greek verbs, when in the present tense and the indicative mood, express continued rather than punctiliar action, this post is blatantly dishonest! Moreover, it is not just this post that is blatantly dishonest—but this post is representative of many more like it!

I respect the right of people to believe as they choose; but no one has the right to willfully and deliberately misrepresent what the Scriptures say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree! No problem with what you say here!

Hey - we agree on a few things! (Maybe most things!!

If you agree, then how could you ever even think a persons could walk away and stop having faith? Just asking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So far in this thread, no verses from the Bible have been posted that say clearly that once a person is saved he (she) is always saved? Some verses have been taken out of context from English translations and posted, but when the Greek texts from which they were translated were considered in context, it was VERY obvious that those verses actually taught that the believer’s salvation is conditional and dependent upon his/hers continued belief in, and obedience to, Christ Jesus our Lord.



In as much as the author of this post knows full well that Greek verbs, when in the present tense and the indicative mood, express continued rather than punctiliar action, this post is blatantly dishonest! Moreover, it is not just this post that is blatantly dishonest—but this post is representative of many more like it!

I respect the right of people to believe as they choose; but no one has the right to willfully and deliberately misrepresent what the Scriptures say.

I respect the right of people to twist the Bible and make it support their view, and not take it literally the way it is written.

I may be able to buy into you view, except there is a major problem.

According to John 6, If I have placed my faith in Christ, I am promised, and assured by Jesus himself.

1. I will never hunger or thirst
2. I will never die
3. I will live forever
4. I will never be lost
5. I will be ressurected by Jesus vs being delibvered to him for judgment
6. I have eternal life.
7. Have been Given to Jesus by his Father, and will by NO MEANS be cast out.

Now here is the problem

1. We recieve these things the MOMENT we eat of the bread from heaven (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD) and place our faith in him.
2. If we have these in our possession, then we have what they literally say
3. If any of these can be LOST for ANY REASON, then God is a liar. And we never had them to begin with.
4. In other words....

A. How can a food which we are told will endure forever stop enduring
B. How can we go from never hungering or thirstain again, to back to hungering and thirsting
C. How can we go from Made alive, never to die again, back to death
D. How can we go from living forever, to not living forever
E. How can we go from Eternal life, back to eternal death
F. How can we Go from will never being lost, or cast out, to being cast out and lost again
G. How can we go from the promise of being ressurected by Jesus and given his assurance, back to not being ressurected and instead agianne being delivered for judgment.

Saying we stopped believeing is no valid answer, Either we had those things the MOMENBT we trusted in jesus, or we did not have them, but were given them as a downpayment for our continued belief, which if this was the case, the terms, NEVER, FOREVER, ETERNAL and ASSURANCE are meaningless, and should never have been used., period.

ie, According to those who say these can be lost. God made a mistake.

I am sorry, there is no hope in a God who makes mistakes, and there is no hope in thinking these things can be lost IF WE FAIL to do something. That places salvation SOLELY on our back, and turns faith in God to faith in self. Which is no faith at all (also kn0own as mere belief or wish washy faith which is dead)

 

[mailmandan]

True. But they also reject justification and imputed righteousness, because those things are beyond human comprehension and must be either accepted by faith or rejected. Here is a part of the section on justification in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Instead of saying what Scripture says -- justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner by God's grace -- we have the "acceptance of God's righteousness", which simply means that we accept that God is righteous. Then they call God's righteousness "justice", which is totally incorrect. And what exactly does "the rectitude of divine love mean"?

In their official writings, the Roman Catholic church teaches that faith is important (their version of faith); but they also insist on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Read the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Roman Catholic teaching does not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God and believe that his sins are forgiven based on Christ's finished work of redemption alone. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic version of salvation by works!

The Roman Catholic view on justification clearly demonstrates a system of works righteousness. In short, the Roman Catholic church grounds justification in the inherent righteousness of man (infused or imparted righteousness), infused into the heart at regeneration, rather than grounding it completely in the grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

If you agree, then how could you ever even think a persons could walk away and stop having faith? Just asking.

Its not only that.

They would also have to somehow give Salvation back.

They would have to give Eternal Life back.

They would have to be un-born.

They would have to overpower God and remove themselves from His Hand.



When we were born in our flesh bodies which attributes could we give back to our parents?

We can't reason people into faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Its not only that.

They would also have to somehow give Salvation back.

They would have to give Eternal Life back.

They would have to be un-born.

They would have to overpower God and remove themselves from His Hand.



When we were born in our flesh bodies which attributes could we give back to our parents?

We can't reason people into faith.

Imagine Noah trying to unseal the door after God sealed him in the ark.

Does anyone think he did not realise his situation? He was in the ark because he trusted God to begin with, He KNEW God would be faithful,

Why would a person who claims to have faith in God try to open the door after God sealed them in? The only reason I can thin. Of is they never trusted God to begin with (remembering God built the ark of salvation and sealed it with his sons blood)

 

[Chester]

I respect the right of people to twist the Bible and make it support their view, and not take it literally the way it is written.

I may be able to buy into you view, except there is a major problem.

According to John 6, If I have placed my faith in Christ, I am promised, and assured by Jesus himself.

1. I will never hunger or thirst
2. I will never die
3. I will live forever
4. I will never be lost
5. I will be ressurected by Jesus vs being delibvered to him for judgment
6. I have eternal life.
7. Have been Given to Jesus by his Father, and will by NO MEANS be cast out.

Now here is the problem

1. We recieve these things the MOMENT we eat of the bread from heaven (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD) and place our faith in him.
2. If we have these in our possession, then we have what they literally say
3. If any of these can be LOST for ANY REASON, then God is a liar. And we never had them to begin with.
4. In other words....

A. How can a food which we are told will endure forever stop enduring
B. How can we go from never hungering or thirstain again, to back to hungering and thirsting
C. How can we go from Made alive, never to die again, back to death
D. How can we go from living forever, to not living forever
E. How can we go from Eternal life, back to eternal death
F. How can we Go from will never being lost, or cast out, to being cast out and lost again
G. How can we go from the promise of being ressurected by Jesus and given his assurance, back to not being ressurected and instead agianne being delivered for judgment.

Saying we stopped believeing is no valid answer, Either we had those things the MOMENBT we trusted in jesus, or we did not have them, but were given them as a downpayment for our continued belief, which if this was the case, the terms, NEVER, FOREVER, ETERNAL and ASSURANCE are meaningless, and should never have been used., period.

ie, According to those who say these can be lost. God made a mistake.

I am sorry, there is no hope in a God who makes mistakes, and there is no hope in thinking these things can be lost IF WE FAIL to do something. That places salvation SOLELY on our back, and turns faith in God to faith in self. Which is no faith at all (also kn0own as mere belief or wish washy faith which is dead)

As I have stated before on this forum, rhetorical questions are not proofs of Biblical truth.

I can take many of the questions in A through G above and simply turn them around:

How can you go from eternal death to eternal life?
How can you go from not living forever to living forever?
etc.

The answer to the above is by putting our faith and trust in Jesus and his work on Calvary.
Can they be reversed? Of course - if we cease putting our faith and trust in Jesus and his work on Calvary.