ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

[Locutus]

The problem with the literalist futurist "theologies" is failure to see the spiritual intent of the prophecies - we see from below that when the Gentiles were gathered under the "ensign/banner" of Christ was the time of the regathering of the tribes:

Isa 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

Isa 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

The facts are that James was writing to those being reclaimed, "the remnant" when he wrote to them in the 1st century:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.

To claim that Isaiah is not fulfilled when the Gentiles were brought in is to deny that the Lord had reached "out his hand a second time".

There is no third time.

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi Bibleguy...I just want to ask , why will animal sacrifices be needed when Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice , I am asking this as I truly am interested , for what purpose will these animals be sacrificed for ...xox...

Hey there!

Well, I won't pretend to know all of God's reasons.

But I suspect the ongoing SHADOW FUNCTION of the law (Col. 2:17) is a big reason.

That is, the sacrifices continuously remind us of the need for the ultimate sacrifice which was, of course, Jesus.

But sacrifices have other benefits...for example, it looks like Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow (Ac. 21) for the purpose of making a public declaration that he walked orderly in accordance with all Torah. So, the benefit, here, is that the sacrificial vow enabled Paul to make a very strong public declaration. So that's another benefit.

I'm sure there are plenty of other good reasons too.

blessings....

 

[Angela53510]

Hey there!

Well, I won't pretend to know all of God's reasons.

But I suspect the ongoing SHADOW FUNCTION of the law (Col. 2:17) is a big reason.

That is, the sacrifices continuously remind us of the need for the ultimate sacrifice which was, of course, Jesus.

But sacrifices have other benefits...for example, it looks like Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow (Ac. 21) for the purpose of making a public declaration that he walked orderly in accordance with all Torah. So, the benefit, here, is that the sacrificial vow enabled Paul to make a very strong public declaration. So that's another benefit.

I'm sure there are plenty of other good reasons too.

blessings....

No, if you actually read the Bible, you will see that there is NO reason for animal sacrifices. Instead, you read websites and post them, complete without looking at the verses.

Please feel free to comment on the Greek exegetics on Hebrews 8:13 above. Oh wait, you can't! You are going to hold onto sunny optimism, instead of the actual words of the Bible.

Too bad! For a guy with the word "Bible" in his screen name, you sure do not read it, use it, or understand it!

 

[BibleGuy]

No, Lynn! Certainly not more than 20 minutes. I copy, paste and reformat fast! Even on my iPad, although the computer is much easier and better, because I keep getting the CC page reloaded and losing what I was writing, when I go to look up verses! Then I have to press the button that puts back what I wrote, twice!


Anyway, my concern is that Bibleguy has pretty much answered everyone but me. After all the time I put in??

So, he must have me on ignore. I guess my posts are too convicting and blast his nonsense to shreds. But then, everyone else does too! It isn't hard to blast this utter nonsense to shreds, is it? You don't even have to use Greek or Hebrew to prove just how wrong he is. So, here is a wrap up, again!

No temple, no sacrifices ever! Not needed, Jesus death on the cross paid "once for all" for our sins.

Again, but shorter!

"For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" Hebrews 10:4

"By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all".Hebrews 10:10

"Now where there is forgiveness of these(sins), there is no longer any offering for sin." Hebrews 10:18

The New Covenant means we do not need animal sacrifices. And even if some fanatical people start sacrificing animals here is what the Word of God says, about those people and those sacrifices.

"When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law),9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second." Hebrews 10:8-9

Hi! Sorry again if I missed something...only so much time in the day...

But thanks for joining the chat....

Sure, obedience is better than sacrifice.

But that same writer of Hebrews said that the Old Covenant is READY to pass away (Heb. 8:13), which means it had not yet passed away.

And, Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac. 21).
And, Thousands of 1st-century disciples condoned sacrifices as well (Ac. 21)
And, many disciples were sacrifice-performing priests (Ac. 6)
And, Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3)
And, Eze. 40-47 is yet future.
And, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future.
And, Jer. 33 is permanent.
And, Is. 66 assures a future sacrifice-performing role for priests/Levites.

So sure, we can quote a couple passages from Hebrews, but until you square them with these other BIBLICAL considerations, you haven't really given us a complete justification of your position.

In fact, the weight of evidence is arguably against your position.

After all, are you willing to tell Paul he was wrong?
Will you tell the thousands of 1st-century disciples they were wrong?
Will you tell the priests who were disciples that they were wrong?
Will you tell Jesus He is wrong to return to fulfill prophecies regarding restoration of Levitical Torah?
Will you oppose Ezekiel's sacrificial laws (Eze. 40-47) when they are instituted?
Will you oppose Moses and say he was wrong to prophesy Dt. 30:1-8?
Will you oppose the permanence of Jer. 33?
Will you oppose the ongoing sacrifice-laden Sabbath of the future (Is. 66)?

I sure hope not!

You see, your interpretation of Hebrews is setting you at odds with A LOT of other Scripture.

And, there is a better option: Interpret Hebrews CONSISTENTLY with all other Scripture (rather than ignoring other Scripture).

But hey...the choice is yours.

But I'm going with the Bible.

best...

 

[BibleGuy]

I think he did answer you somewhat Angela.

The guy has totally redefined the Greek "eggus" to fit his "theology".

Strongs

G1451 eggus eng-goos'

from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43);

near (literally or figuratively, of place or time).


KJV: from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

-----------------------------------

Me thinks he has eggus on face...

Did I answer this already?

I already forgot...

But just to be safe:

Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant is READY to pass away (Heb. 8:13), which means it did NOT yet pass away.

Did I redefine a word?

of course not!

In the SAME WAY, the words of the prophecy of the book of revelation are READY ("engoos") to occur (Rev. 22:10), but they have NOT YET OCCURRED (even now a couple thousand years later).

So, my usage of "engoos" is consistent and Scripturally authorized.

Ok...I'll be away this weekend.....

Blessings to everyone!

 

[posthuman]

1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.
​

this right here,

this is a promise to those baptized into Moses, that if they obey the Law of the covenant made with them at Sinai they will be blessed.

(1) that is not the covenant we have entered into with Jesus - we were baptized into Christ, not Moses, and the priesthood is no longer after Levi
(2) not fulfilled? have you not heard of Hezekiah or Josiah? when the nation Israel turned toward God, and repented of their idolatry, He blessed them, just as Deuteronomy 30:1-8 promised.

 

[posthuman]

haven't read the thread yet, only post #1 and responded to first error i saw.

has he asked us to send money to Israel to help rebuild temple yet?

hahaha


srsly tho, seems like likely end-game to me.
please enjoy my honest reactions

 

[posthuman]

2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.
​

Ezekiel was never told to build the temple in his vision. he was specifically told to relate this vision to the people of Israel so that they would be ashamed of their sins, by considering its perfection ((ch. 43 v.10)) that doesn't constitute prophecy of a future physical temple and does not constitute a command to construct it. in the same way John's vision of the heavenly city with its 12 gates does not constitute a command to build a physical city or even prophecy that a literal, corporeal city will be.

 

[posthuman]

Hey there!

Well, I won't pretend to know all of God's reasons.

But I suspect the ongoing SHADOW FUNCTION of the law (Col. 2:17) is a big reason.

why would we go back to shadows when we have the substance?

 

[Laish]

The problem with the literalist futurist "theologies" is failure to see the spiritual intent of the prophecies - we see from below that when the Gentiles were gathered under the "ensign/banner" of Christ was the time of the regathering of the tribes:

Isa 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

Isa 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

The facts are that James was writing to those being reclaimed, "the remnant" when he wrote to them in the 1st century:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.

To claim that Isaiah is not fulfilled when the Gentiles were brought in is to deny that the Lord had reached "out his hand a second time".

There is no third time.

Well another problem is that they ( literalist and futurist) have is once they see prophecy,many jump to the conclusion that it’s is a impending event. Many ( not all ) don’t take into consideration that thousands of years have gone by and that these events may have been fulfilled in years past .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nehemiah6]

... that doesn't constitute prophecy of a future physical temple and does not constitute a command to construct it...

Really? So all those details regarding a future temple in Jerusalem was simply AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY? Why do Christians have a problem because God has a plan for redeemed and restored Israel? It almost seems that the spirit of jealousy has taken hold of some so they cannot abide the fact that Israel will indeed be greater Israel under David and Christ and all those living in that land from the Nile to the Euphrates will be saved by grace through faith and under the New Covenant.

Now even though the prophecies regarding Israel in Ezekiel are all under the New Covenant, there is still an anomaly which only God and Christ will resolve in the future. Since the finished work of Christ is indeed a perfectly finished work, nothing more can be added to it, and certainly not any merits in animal sacrifices. So God must have another reason for this anomaly and we need not get perturbed simply because we cannot explain the discrepancy. What we should keep in mind is that the New Covenant will be operational.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. (Ezek 36:24-28)

 

[Nehemiah6]

why would we go back to shadows when we have the substance?

Why do Christians ask questions for which only God will have answers in the future? Why not rejoice in the fact that God knows exactly what He is doing and all will be clear when we see Christ?

 

[posthuman]

Really? So all those details regarding a future temple in Jerusalem was simply AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY?

you forgot to quote where i cited what the express purpose ((according to the text)) of the vision is: to produce shame of sin in the recognizance of the perfection of the vision.

so it's only "futile" if we hear it, and remain unashamed.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hello friends,

It appears we have a dozen Scripturally-grounded reasons which jointly confirm that animal sacrifices will (in the future) be resumed in conjunction with the full restoration of Priestly/Levitical duties. And, we will participate in these activities as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and Israel. Most of us Christians are unaware of our future destiny in Israel; I hope this thread begins (in at least some small way) the process of correcting this unfortunate circumstance.

1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.

3. A. Jer. 33:20-22 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Jer. 33:20-22 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

4. A. Zec. 14 guarantees future GLOBAL participation in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (with punishment upon the nations who do not participate).
B. Therefore, global participation in sacrifice-laden feasts will occur in the future, and it will be required, and it will be good to obey, and it will be bad to disobey.

5. A. Mal. 3:1-4 guarantees that the Messiah will RESTORE the covenant with Levi, complete with sacrifices to be offered again in the future.
B. We should not oppose what the Messiah will come to restore in the forthcoming kingdom rule.

6. A. Is. 66 guarantees future restoration of Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with new moon and Sabbath observance.
B. We should not oppose what Isaiah guarantees will occur in the future.

7.A. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
B. That which is ready to disappear has NOT yet disappeared (from the meaning of "engoos").
C. The Old Covenant was still in force (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews) (from B).
D. The inauguration of the New Covenant does NOT entail termination of the Old Covenant (from C).
E. Old Covenant Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities are good and proper to persist into the New Covenant era (from D).

8. A. Many New-Covenant-era priests were disciples of the Messiah (Ac. 6:7).
B. Priests perform sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties.
C. Priestly sacrificial/Levitical duties are acceptable in the New-Covenant-era (from A and B).

9. A. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21:20).
B. Torah-obedience requires sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties (when performed properly).
C. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah-obedient sacrificial/priestly/Levitical activity.
D. These disciples encouraged Paul (and Paul agreed!) to condone a vow (evidently the sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow) for the purpose of publicly affirming that Paul likewise walked orderly according to the Torah.
E. Sacrifices are, thus, affirmed as a valid ongoing New-Covenant-era practice.


10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

11. A. Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel (Eph. 2).
B. The covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New) are all still in force, and we Christians partake in these covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12).
C. The covenants entail Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when properly performed.
D. Thus, we Christians should condone the proper restoration and participation in the Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate.

12. A. Israelites will again participate in Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when they return from ALL the countries to which they have been scattered (Eze. 20:30-44).
B. This return has not yet occurred.
C. Animal sacrifices will occur in the future (from A and B).
D. We Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between YHVH and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31).
E. Thus, we are Israelites who will participate in the restoration of animal sacrifices in the future.


CONCLUSION: We appear to have a dozen (I could list many more!) Scripturally-grounded lines of reasoning which jointly confirm that Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity is good and proper and forthcoming.

Yes, sin offerings point to the Lamb of God (Jesus) who is the ultimate sin-offering on our behalf. But this is no excuse to terminate the ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION authorized by Scripture, affirmed by Scripture, and guaranteed (in Scripture) to properly occur in the future, just as it also properly occurred even AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant in the first century.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong on all 12 arguments. I'm open to correction from any better-justified viewpoint.

If you agree with my 12 arguments, please let me know, because that would be encouraging to me.

If you disagree, please help me understand:
1. Which specific premise(s) in my 12 arguments do you reject (and why)?
2. Which Scriptural passage do you believe disconfirms my position (and why)?

Let's study and learn together, growing in love and grace and knowledge in our Lord Jesus Christ.

blessings to you all...


​

Well BibleGuy, I guess your Jewish and have rejected Jesus as your savior or you gentile and have done the same.... It seems you are figuring to go through the tribulations. So Sad----there is another way.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello friends,

It appears we have a dozen Scripturally-grounded reasons which jointly confirm that animal sacrifices will (in the future) be resumed in conjunction with the full restoration of Priestly/Levitical duties. And, we will participate in these activities as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and Israel. Most of us Christians are unaware of our future destiny in Israel; I hope this thread begins (in at least some small way) the process of correcting this unfortunate circumstance.

1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.

3. A. Jer. 33:20-22 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Jer. 33:20-22 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

4. A. Zec. 14 guarantees future GLOBAL participation in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (with punishment upon the nations who do not participate).
B. Therefore, global participation in sacrifice-laden feasts will occur in the future, and it will be required, and it will be good to obey, and it will be bad to disobey.

5. A. Mal. 3:1-4 guarantees that the Messiah will RESTORE the covenant with Levi, complete with sacrifices to be offered again in the future.
B. We should not oppose what the Messiah will come to restore in the forthcoming kingdom rule.

6. A. Is. 66 guarantees future restoration of Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with new moon and Sabbath observance.
B. We should not oppose what Isaiah guarantees will occur in the future.

7.A. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
B. That which is ready to disappear has NOT yet disappeared (from the meaning of "engoos").
C. The Old Covenant was still in force (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews) (from B).
D. The inauguration of the New Covenant does NOT entail termination of the Old Covenant (from C).
E. Old Covenant Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities are good and proper to persist into the New Covenant era (from D).

8. A. Many New-Covenant-era priests were disciples of the Messiah (Ac. 6:7).
B. Priests perform sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties.
C. Priestly sacrificial/Levitical duties are acceptable in the New-Covenant-era (from A and B).

9. A. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21:20).
B. Torah-obedience requires sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties (when performed properly).
C. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah-obedient sacrificial/priestly/Levitical activity.
D. These disciples encouraged Paul (and Paul agreed!) to condone a vow (evidently the sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow) for the purpose of publicly affirming that Paul likewise walked orderly according to the Torah.
E. Sacrifices are, thus, affirmed as a valid ongoing New-Covenant-era practice.


10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

11. A. Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel (Eph. 2).
B. The covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New) are all still in force, and we Christians partake in these covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12).
C. The covenants entail Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when properly performed.
D. Thus, we Christians should condone the proper restoration and participation in the Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate.

12. A. Israelites will again participate in Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when they return from ALL the countries to which they have been scattered (Eze. 20:30-44).
B. This return has not yet occurred.
C. Animal sacrifices will occur in the future (from A and B).
D. We Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between YHVH and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31).
E. Thus, we are Israelites who will participate in the restoration of animal sacrifices in the future.


CONCLUSION: We appear to have a dozen (I could list many more!) Scripturally-grounded lines of reasoning which jointly confirm that Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity is good and proper and forthcoming.

Yes, sin offerings point to the Lamb of God (Jesus) who is the ultimate sin-offering on our behalf. But this is no excuse to terminate the ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION authorized by Scripture, affirmed by Scripture, and guaranteed (in Scripture) to properly occur in the future, just as it also properly occurred even AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant in the first century.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong on all 12 arguments. I'm open to correction from any better-justified viewpoint.

If you agree with my 12 arguments, please let me know, because that would be encouraging to me.

If you disagree, please help me understand:
1. Which specific premise(s) in my 12 arguments do you reject (and why)?
2. Which Scriptural passage do you believe disconfirms my position (and why)?

Let's study and learn together, growing in love and grace and knowledge in our Lord Jesus Christ.

blessings to you all...


​

Greetings BibleGuy,

Those who belong to the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, are two separate entities, two different dispensations. For regarding the church it is written:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatian 3:28

Those in Christ have been credited with His righteousness and have been reconciled to God, without spot or blemish. The church will not perform animal sacrifices any more than Christ himself would, for the church has been seated with Christ in heavenly realms. - Eph.2:6

The next event, and which has and continues to be imminent, will be the gathering of the church. When this takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet the Lord in the air, where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

After that will begin "The Day of the Lord," the time of God's wrath, which will include the fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sets of seven year periods decreed upon the nation Israel her holy city Jerusalem, and God's wrath upon the rest of the Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. (Dan.9:24-27, Revelation 6 thru 18)

Once God's wrath has been completed the Lord will descend from heaven to end the age, and the church/bride who will have previously been gathered, will receive her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven and will follow Christ out of heaven riding on white horses, wearing her fine linen. (Rev.19:6-8, 14). In further support of this Rev.17:14 has the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers," i.e. the church, returning with him as he engages the nations who will be gathered against him at Armageddon.

During the millennial period, the earth will be repopulated by those of Israel and the great tribulation saints, who make it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom, alive. These will still be mortal bodies with their sinful natures. In opposition, several years earlier will have been clothed with their immoral and glorified bodies and will be ruling with Christ over those people during the millennium:

"And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." - Rev.2:26-28

And regarding the great tribulation saints who will be resurrected:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." - Rev.20:4-6

 

[posthuman]

"a great multitude which no man can number"

Say, doesn't Jeremiah 33 mention something about His priests becoming as the sands of the seashore, that no man can number?

 

[Angela53510]

Ok, you obviously need the Greek. Most modern versions don't bring out the Perfect tense in the first two words of Hebrews 8:13. And again, people should not make doctrine unless they can read and understand Greek. Certainly, the English adequately explains to most of us, what this verse means. But, because you are special Bibleguy, I will go through the Greek, to try and help you see the error of your ways!

"ἐν τῷ λέγειν Καινὴν πεπαλαίωκεν τὴν πρώτην, τὸ δὲ παλαιούμενον καὶ γηράσκον ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ."

The NLT does capture a bit of the tense in the first part of the verse, which is so important for the exegesis of this verse

"When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NLT

πεπαλαίωκεν - (pepalaioken) παλαιόω Perfect Indicative Active 3rd Person Singular - to declare or treat as old or obsolete. (the subject of this verb, which is not written, is God who is the subject of the quote from Jeremiah 31.) Perfect implies a completed action in the past, with consequences in the present. Legally, the person who made a covenant or testament could change or annul it. According to Hebrews, God established the first covenant, and he has replaced it with a new one. He is the speaker of the oracle in Jeremiah 31, (quoted after v. 13), thus the one who called the new covenant "new." (Καινὴν)

τὴν πρώτην - the first. The first one has been made obsolete. What are the on-going aspects of the first covenant being obsolete in the present? Well, that well, is where a totally new and different covenant follows it.

γηράσκον ἐγγὺς- in whichγηράσκον is a Present Active Participle 3rd person singular, meaning, to grow old, and ἐγγὺς means "near."

The language used in the Greek, points to a new act of God, he "has made the first one obsolete." To characterize the the first covenant in this way, points to its weakness and ineffectiveness.

παλαιούμενον - (palaiomenon) from παλαιόω from Present Passive Participle, 3rd person singular. (Again referring to God.) The final phrase, using Palaioo, the same verb used above, can signify hide, make unseen, or disappear, but when used with the noun ἀφανισμοῦ ( aphanismou - Genitive Masc. Singular) suggests utter destruction and abolition, and was used in the LXX when God destroyed the enemies in the Promised Land (Deut. 7:2) Josephus uses the word of cities that disappeared by destruction.

Given the author of Hebrew's understanding of the diction of the LXX, he has likely employed the word in a similar sense "the first covenant is not only old and weak, it is destined for imminent destruction." Where does the "immanent" come from, besides the inferences from Deuteronomy? Well, from the word ἐγγὺς which does NOT mean a far distant time, but close to now, near!

So, the Old Covenant was old, decayed, weak, and about to be destroyed. Although we do not know exactly when this was written, it was likely before the destruction of the temple and the fall of Jerusalem. So, "near" ἐγγὺς does not refer to a time 2000 years in the future. That is to do a horrible injustice to the text.

Instead, for the author of Hebrews, the old covenant was near its end, as soon as this was spoken. It had passed its "use by" date, its demise was a foregone conclusion.

That is why people who do not know Greek should not attempt to make doctrine, as you have done. The Old Covenant is gone, there was no "future" time, but instead, it was about to be totally destroyed in a time that was near, to be replaced totally by the New Covenant. That time was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when sacrifices were ended!

PS Ok, Lynn, that took a while! Much harder to exegete one verse, than just copy and paste a whole chapter.

Did I answer this already?

I already forgot...

But just to be safe:

Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant is READY to pass away (Heb. 8:13), which means it did NOT yet pass away.

Did I redefine a word?

of course not!

In the SAME WAY, the words of the prophecy of the book of revelation are READY ("engoos") to occur (Rev. 22:10), but they have NOT YET OCCURRED (even now a couple thousand years later).

So, my usage of "engoos" is consistent and Scripturally authorized.

Ok...I'll be away this weekend.....

Blessings to everyone!

So where in the Greek is the word “ready?” I posted my exegesis of the Greek, which you passed over. Too hard for you? Or the Greek doesn’t say what you want it to say? Let’s look at the actual words in Greek. For starters, the word “ready” just is NOT in the text, nor even implied. Instead a Perfect Past verb. I assume you know nothing about grammar, but Perfect Past means “completed in the past.” In English, it requires the helping verb “have” + the past participle “have made obsolete.”

[FONT=&quot]ἐν τῷ λέγειν Καινὴν πεπαλαίωκεν τὴν πρώτην, τὸ δὲ παλαιούμενον καὶ γηράσκον ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The NLT does capture a bit of the tense in the first part of the verse, which is so important for the exegesis of this verse

[/FONT]"When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NLT

πεπαλαίωκεν - (pepalaioken) παλαιόω Perfect Indicative Active 3rd Person Singular - to declare or treat as old or obsolete. (the subject of this verb, which is not written, is God who is the subject of the quote from Jeremiah 31.) Perfect implies a completed action in the past, with consequences in the present. Legally, the person who made a covenant or testament could change or annul it. According to Hebrews, God established the first covenant, and he has replaced it with a new one. He is the speaker of the oracle in Jeremiah 31, (quoted after v. 13), thus the one who called the new covenant "new."

It may be hard for you to understand, but I laid it all out for you. In fact, I will do the word for word translation of the first part, which you so totally changed and mangled. No ready!

[FONT=&quot]ἐv........τῷ λέγειν Καινὴν...[/FONT]πεπαλαίωκεν .....[FONT=&quot]τὴν πρώτην
“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]when the to say new, has been completed/destroyed, the first.”

Yep, Greek is very convoluted, and Hebrews and the writings of Luke are very difficult Greek although Hebrews is the most difficult. (Other than the LXX!). So, which has been destroyed, the new or the first (old)? Obviously the old, the first has been destroyed. And the New is what we live under.

So, the nominative or subject is understood to be God. When “God” speaks of the New (Covenant), the first has been completed or destroyed.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]τὸ δὲ παλαιούμενον καὶ γηράσκον ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ."
the and being very old and grows old near destruction.

Best to say, “and the being old ([/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]παλαιούμενον is an adjectival participle, and the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]τὸ or “the” goods with it) grow near or imminently of destruction. ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἀφανισμοῦ is in the gentive, so it is acceptable to add the word “of”).

So probably a close interpretation of the Greek is NLT.

[/FONT]When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NLT

Or for that matter, any other translation from the KJV up to NET. Not one says “ready”. The Old Covenant is complete, destroyed, annihilated!

Please talk about the Greek words, instead of making up words to fit your doctrine. In this case, what you have done is made the words of the Bible into outright heresy, by just picking and choosing words at random, that support your completely wrong eschatology.

You can post lies and made up stuff all you want, but there are many on this forum with the wisdom to discredit you, using the Bible. My advice is to just leave, because with your appalling lack of knowledge of the Bible, you have lost already!

 

[Angela53510]

Did I answer this already?

I already forgot...

But just to be safe:

Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant is READY to pass away (Heb. 8:13), which means it did NOT yet pass away.

Did I redefine a word?

of course not!

In the SAME WAY, the words of the prophecy of the book of revelation are READY ("engoos") to occur (Rev. 22:10), but they have NOT YET OCCURRED (even now a couple thousand years later).

So, my usage of "engoos" is consistent and Scripturally authorized.

Ok...I'll be away this weekend.....

Blessings to everyone!

So, you NEED to tell me what Bible version you are using! Because none of the better translations use the word "ready" for near. Ever!

"Then he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy contained in this book, because the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NET

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." KJV

"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NIV

"And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NASB

"Then he instructed me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words in this book, for the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NLT

"The Angel continued, “Don’t seal the words of the prophecy of this book; don’t put it away on the shelf. Time is just about up. Let evildoers do their worst and the dirty-minded go all out in pollution, but let the righteous maintain a straight course and the holy continue on in holiness.” Rev. 22:10-11 The Message

So, from the formal versions, through the dynamic equivalent versions, and paraphrases, NOT ONE says near means ready. It means NEAR. Even the Orthodox Jewish Bible says "at hand."

“Worship Hashem!” And he says to me, “Do not seal up the dvarim hanevu’ah (words of the prophecy) of this sefer (book), for the zman (time) is at hand." Rev. 22:10

Here is the definition of ἐγγύς from BDAG (Bauer)

ἐγγύς-adverb frequently functioning as a preposition.

1. pertaining to being in close proximity, spatially, near, close to.

2. pertaining to being close in point of time, near (both Hebrews 13:8 and Rev. 22:10 are this definition. )

3. pertaining to being close as an experience or event, close.

Near - ἐγγύς means near - not ready, ever in Greek!

 

[Locutus]

1 Cor 10:11 (Young's Literal) And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come.

In the above "end" can also be translated as goal :

Strongs

G5056 telos tel'-os

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

If we read the above as the "goal of the ages has come" then this would signify that all that was written in the prophetic statements of the old covenant have reached their goal or consumation

Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

 

[followjesus]

Hello friends,

It appears we have a dozen Scripturally-grounded reasons which jointly confirm that animal sacrifices will (in the future) be resumed in conjunction with the full restoration of Priestly/Levitical duties. And, we will participate in these activities as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and Israel. Most of us Christians are unaware of our future destiny in Israel; I hope this thread begins (in at least some small way) the process of correcting this unfortunate circumstance.

1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.

3. A. Jer. 33:20-22 is not yet fulfilled.
B. Jer. 33:20-22 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

4. A. Zec. 14 guarantees future GLOBAL participation in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (with punishment upon the nations who do not participate).
B. Therefore, global participation in sacrifice-laden feasts will occur in the future, and it will be required, and it will be good to obey, and it will be bad to disobey.

5. A. Mal. 3:1-4 guarantees that the Messiah will RESTORE the covenant with Levi, complete with sacrifices to be offered again in the future.
B. We should not oppose what the Messiah will come to restore in the forthcoming kingdom rule.

6. A. Is. 66 guarantees future restoration of Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with new moon and Sabbath observance.
B. We should not oppose what Isaiah guarantees will occur in the future.

7.A. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
B. That which is ready to disappear has NOT yet disappeared (from the meaning of "engoos").
C. The Old Covenant was still in force (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews) (from B).
D. The inauguration of the New Covenant does NOT entail termination of the Old Covenant (from C).
E. Old Covenant Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities are good and proper to persist into the New Covenant era (from D).

8. A. Many New-Covenant-era priests were disciples of the Messiah (Ac. 6:7).
B. Priests perform sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties.
C. Priestly sacrificial/Levitical duties are acceptable in the New-Covenant-era (from A and B).

9. A. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21:20).
B. Torah-obedience requires sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties (when performed properly).
C. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah-obedient sacrificial/priestly/Levitical activity.
D. These disciples encouraged Paul (and Paul agreed!) to condone a vow (evidently the sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow) for the purpose of publicly affirming that Paul likewise walked orderly according to the Torah.
E. Sacrifices are, thus, affirmed as a valid ongoing New-Covenant-era practice.


10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

11. A. Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel (Eph. 2).
B. The covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New) are all still in force, and we Christians partake in these covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12).
C. The covenants entail Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when properly performed.
D. Thus, we Christians should condone the proper restoration and participation in the Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate.

12. A. Israelites will again participate in Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when they return from ALL the countries to which they have been scattered (Eze. 20:30-44).
B. This return has not yet occurred.
C. Animal sacrifices will occur in the future (from A and B).
D. We Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between YHVH and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31).
E. Thus, we are Israelites who will participate in the restoration of animal sacrifices in the future.


CONCLUSION: We appear to have a dozen (I could list many more!) Scripturally-grounded lines of reasoning which jointly confirm that Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity is good and proper and forthcoming.

Yes, sin offerings point to the Lamb of God (Jesus) who is the ultimate sin-offering on our behalf. But this is no excuse to terminate the ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION authorized by Scripture, affirmed by Scripture, and guaranteed (in Scripture) to properly occur in the future, just as it also properly occurred even AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant in the first century.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong on all 12 arguments. I'm open to correction from any better-justified viewpoint.

If you agree with my 12 arguments, please let me know, because that would be encouraging to me.

If you disagree, please help me understand:
1. Which specific premise(s) in my 12 arguments do you reject (and why)?
2. Which Scriptural passage do you believe disconfirms my position (and why)?

Let's study and learn together, growing in love and grace and knowledge in our Lord Jesus Christ.

blessings to you all...


​

quite simply, sin will not be allowed to continue and sacrifice was already made for eternity. look to the beginning. the first sacrifice was made after adam and eve transgressed and became aware. God made garments of skin to clothe thier now exposed and revealed thier fear, nakedness and shame before God.

Sin requires blood to cover the guilt, just as they required garments of skin to cover thier bodies. Jesus sacrifice, paid for sin forever. sacrifice is no longer necassary and blood is no longer rewuired to cover sin, or insttute fellowship or sanctify or atone for anyones guilt, it has been done not by anything man offered, but By Gods sacrifice for us to cover our sin. nothing we could ever offer of a flock can atone for sin, But One sacrifice bu God, and all sin is atoned for for a believer in Jesus.


we still make sacrifices, but we are the sacrifice

romans 12 " I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

john 7 " And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. "