Actually no I wasn't "mocking you" I was kidding from one of your other posts,with my "opinion bit" that was funny you said something about "an opinion having to agree with everyone else's" I was "testing" said funny remark!
How To Be Un-Saved
- Thread starter Budman
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Gotcha! Guess I didn't make the connection due be being held hostage at the Apple store. 3 days, 9 hours to change a battery. Which STILL has not been changed.
Ok, off the phone and back on the computer. Let me edit this for the reading-fatigued...
1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.
Joshua 24:15, Deu 30:19, John 6:27–29, Romans 6:16
*
2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.
3. We are not saved by acts of works.
4. Belief and faith are not acts of works.
Romans 4:1-24, Eph 2:8-9, Acts 16:31, Romans 5:1, John 5:24, Romans 11:6
*
5. Works are a reliable evidence of true salvation
James 2:14-26
*
6. Once His, God will never turn us away
John 3:15-16, John 10:27-29, 1 Peter 1:5, John 6:37-39, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Timothy 1:12
*
7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve
Joshua 24:15, Deu 30:19, John 6:27–29, Romans 6:16
*
8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselves away from salvation, and be as if they were never saved at all... forever.
2 Peter 2:20-22, Jude 1:21, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Colossians 1:22-23, John 15:1-6, 2 Peter 1:5-9, 1 John 2:18-26
1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.
Joshua 24:15, Deu 30:19, John 6:27–29, Romans 6:16
*
2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.
3. We are not saved by acts of works.
4. Belief and faith are not acts of works.
Romans 4:1-24, Eph 2:8-9, Acts 16:31, Romans 5:1, John 5:24, Romans 11:6
*
5. Works are a reliable evidence of true salvation
James 2:14-26
*
6. Once His, God will never turn us away
John 3:15-16, John 10:27-29, 1 Peter 1:5, John 6:37-39, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Timothy 1:12
*
7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve
Joshua 24:15, Deu 30:19, John 6:27–29, Romans 6:16
*
8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselves away from salvation, and be as if they were never saved at all... forever.
2 Peter 2:20-22, Jude 1:21, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Colossians 1:22-23, John 15:1-6, 2 Peter 1:5-9, 1 John 2:18-26
Yes you are right verse 21 belongs in that sequence. But IF is conditional... and god says repeatedly that WE are to persevere, not He will persevere for us.
Kinda like Jesus said in His Name we will do things, not we will ask Him to do them?
I think 1 John 2 sums it all up: You are not saved until you chose to be, and if you ever chose not to be then you are as if you never chose to... irrevocably.
Kinda like Jesus said in His Name we will do things, not we will ask Him to do them?
I think 1 John 2 sums it all up: You are not saved until you chose to be, and if you ever chose not to be then you are as if you never chose to... irrevocably.
Hebrews 3
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Hebrews is using OT scripture to teach that christians can fall away from God thru unbelief.
The writer of Hebrews is addressing "brethren" here in verse 12, but does this mean that EVERYONE in this very large group of professing Hebrew believers must ALL be genuine believers? If the Pastor of a church (especially a very large church) greets the congregation on Sunday morning with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" and the sermon is directed at believers, does that mean EVERYONE who attended church that morning must ALL be genuine believers?
In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather, "we have been, and now are, partakers of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah (also see Hebrews 4:1-3) and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
Departing from God would be a manifestation of unbelief. If someone is still in the process of becoming a partaker of Christ and are among genuine believers and have received the knowledge of the truth and are still in the process of considering the truth, but then decide to draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39), didn't this person still turn away and depart from God? God revealed Himself to these Hebrews, yet those who departed still turned away from Him. You can't turn away from the truth if you have not yet heard or had the chance to consider the truth, but that does not mean that you have to fully accept the truth before you can turn away from it.
In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather, "we have been, and now are, partakers of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah (also see Hebrews 4:1-3) and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
Departing from God would be a manifestation of unbelief. If someone is still in the process of becoming a partaker of Christ and are among genuine believers and have received the knowledge of the truth and are still in the process of considering the truth, but then decide to draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39), didn't this person still turn away and depart from God? God revealed Himself to these Hebrews, yet those who departed still turned away from Him. You can't turn away from the truth if you have not yet heard or had the chance to consider the truth, but that does not mean that you have to fully accept the truth before you can turn away from it.
"Your friend gave you free tickets to a concert, if indeed you arrive at the venue"
Arriving at the venue does not get you free tickets.
If indeed/assuming that this is true, that your friend gave you the tickets, then you will arrive at the venue! The action (arriving) confirms the reality (that you were given tickets)
Colossians 1:21-23: "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister"
Again, likewise, the action (perseverance) confirms the reality (reconciled), not that perseverance gets you reconciled.
Arriving at the venue does not get you free tickets.
If indeed/assuming that this is true, that your friend gave you the tickets, then you will arrive at the venue! The action (arriving) confirms the reality (that you were given tickets)
Colossians 1:21-23: "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister"
Again, likewise, the action (perseverance) confirms the reality (reconciled), not that perseverance gets you reconciled.
Yes. Someone who believes they can lose salvation probably can lose it.
Salvation, to them, is something they achieved through their own wisdom and their own understanding. That will always fail.
But someone who believes in OSAS can't lose their salvation. They are always believing in the Power of the One who has saved them. They have to in order to believe OSAS.
Someone who tells you that you cannot lose your salvation is in the MIDST of belief. They believe in the Power of the Lord.
Someone who tells you that you can lose your salvation is in the MIDST of unbelief. They don't believe in the Power of the Lord.
Sometimes you have to be careful what you listen to and especially what you hear. Is it of faith?
Hebrews 4:2-3
Salvation, to them, is something they achieved through their own wisdom and their own understanding. That will always fail.
But someone who believes in OSAS can't lose their salvation. They are always believing in the Power of the One who has saved them. They have to in order to believe OSAS.
Someone who tells you that you cannot lose your salvation is in the MIDST of belief. They believe in the Power of the Lord.
Someone who tells you that you can lose your salvation is in the MIDST of unbelief. They don't believe in the Power of the Lord.
Sometimes you have to be careful what you listen to and especially what you hear. Is it of faith?
Hebrews 4:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Yeah, and I think assumptions shouldn't be made that all in a church congregation are saved, because there will always be a mix of wheat and tares in them.
Interesting that there are some who believe Hebrews 3 is speaking of prodigal children, but I don't see how this fits. I know when I was backsliding that I didn't stop believing, even though I drifted off for a while.
Interesting that there are some who believe Hebrews 3 is speaking of prodigal children, but I don't see how this fits. I know when I was backsliding that I didn't stop believing, even though I drifted off for a while.
There's always statements like this in yer posts that are totally false, designed to steer others away from the truth.
1. When the author writes to "believers", this is saved people only.
Yes, genuine believers.
2. That "large church" story doesn't even work here because all the churches at the time were house churches.
Pure eisegesis.
Perhaps you could get Joseph Prince & Kenny Copeland to agree with you. They add eisegesis to the scriptures all the time.
I don't believe your first sentence is justified, and certainly not the extreme position you have taken.
We know from Scripture itself that within the apostolic churches there were genuine believers as well as mere professors. Indeed the letters to the seven churches make it clear that there were even apostates and false apostles within the local assemblies.
The writer to the Hebrews (which I believe is Paul) was also conscious of this when he said: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Heb 12:15,16).
To make it even clearer we can take the Holman Christian Standard Bible for a more current presentation:Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many. And make sure that there isn't any immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for one meal.
So where is the eisegesis in suggesting that there could have been some unsaved individuals included in this group?
We know from Scripture itself that within the apostolic churches there were genuine believers as well as mere professors. Indeed the letters to the seven churches make it clear that there were even apostates and false apostles within the local assemblies.
The writer to the Hebrews (which I believe is Paul) was also conscious of this when he said: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (Heb 12:15,16).
To make it even clearer we can take the Holman Christian Standard Bible for a more current presentation:Make sure that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many. And make sure that there isn't any immoral or irreverent person like Esau, who sold his birthright in exchange for one meal.
So where is the eisegesis in suggesting that there could have been some unsaved individuals included in this group?
I believe the scriptures, & they say you can.
Let's not forget the falling away:
New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.
English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.
Berean Literal Bible
No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the apostasy shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction,
New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Hebrews 3:12
New International Version
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
New Living Translation
Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God.
English Standard Version
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
Berean Study Bible
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
New American Standard Bible
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Let's not forget the falling away:
2 Thessalonians 2:3
New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.
English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.
Berean Literal Bible
No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the apostasy shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction,
New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
New Living Translation
Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God.
English Standard Version
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
Berean Study Bible
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
New American Standard Bible
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
John 16
1“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.2They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.3And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me.4But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you.
This part in red.......is the author speaking directly to saved individuals, or is he talking to sinners?
Is he telling the religious sinners to look out for the unreligious sinners?
Or, is he writing by the power of the Holy Spirit to the saved people only?
When I say the epistles only are written to saved christians, it doesn't matter if there's 1,000 people in the congregation, & only 50 of them are saved.
The epistles only speaks to the saved individuals, for only they are the real church.
If they were speaking to the unsaved, I'd think they would have enuff sense to tell them they need to be saved first.
Is he telling the religious sinners to look out for the unreligious sinners?
Or, is he writing by the power of the Holy Spirit to the saved people only?
When I say the epistles only are written to saved christians, it doesn't matter if there's 1,000 people in the congregation, & only 50 of them are saved.
The epistles only speaks to the saved individuals, for only they are the real church.
If they were speaking to the unsaved, I'd think they would have enuff sense to tell them they need to be saved first.
J
Your first selection of scripture is referring to an "unbeliever" not a "saved person".
Your second selection in scripture is referring to "self analyzation" of each person that hopes to serve God.
Your third scripture is concerning the disciples not straying from serving Jesus not necessarily salvation but particularly servitude despite being informed that others will treat them as if they do wrong.
Your second selection in scripture is referring to "self analyzation" of each person that hopes to serve God.
Your third scripture is concerning the disciples not straying from serving Jesus not necessarily salvation but particularly servitude despite being informed that others will treat them as if they do wrong.
I agree with that bit in red. The apostates are like their father, the devil. The book of Jude confirms they don't have the Holy Spirit. Just like Cain, who was an apostate of old, they are non believers.
One end times Antichrist (man of sin) and several antichrists in the world. "They came out from among us but were not of us" (1 John 2:19)... because they are of the world, not of God. We know that believers are no longer of the world, as we've been taken out of it. The "of" is significant there.
Believers are no longer enemies, and no longer condemned. I don't see any scriptures that say believers go back to being tares, goats, enemies, and named antichrists? You're either in God's family or you're lost in the world.
By the way, I highlighted those letters incase anyone reads this and gets confused between the two (was not for you, as I know you know the difference).
One end times Antichrist (man of sin) and several antichrists in the world. "They came out from among us but were not of us" (1 John 2:19)... because they are of the world, not of God. We know that believers are no longer of the world, as we've been taken out of it. The "of" is significant there.
Believers are no longer enemies, and no longer condemned. I don't see any scriptures that say believers go back to being tares, goats, enemies, and named antichrists? You're either in God's family or you're lost in the world.
By the way, I highlighted those letters incase anyone reads this and gets confused between the two (was not for you, as I know you know the difference).