Are women allowed to Preach?

[Nehemiah6]

When did church become about having authority over people?

What makes you think that the elders had no authority over the churches? Why don't you take some time to study out the matter? And why don't you tell us EXACTLY what this means without putting a spin on it?

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Heb 13:17)

Oh that's right, the Romans.

That's not even funny.

But Jesus called them to himself [and] said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions exercise authority over them. It will not be like this among you! But whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be most prominent among you must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life [as] a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:25-28

Taking Scriptures out of context and misapplying them does no one any good. It simply adds to the confusion, and we see this over and over again in Christian forums.

The context here is that the apostles were operating in the flesh at this time, and competing for the highest position in Christ's literal Kingdom. Indeed the mother of James and John, the sons of Zebedee, was well-meaning but rather ambitious for her sons, and petitioned the Lord to make sure that they would sit beside Him in His coming kingdom (taking the highest positions). So this was all about ambition, even though these men loved God and Christ. Therefore we have this saying of Christ quoted above, which was teaching the lesson that the one who is the greatest in humble service is also the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. And among these Christ Himself was the greatest Servant, and He illustrated this by washing the feet of His disciples.

Does this saying mean that Christ was nullifying legitimate authority within the churches and within the Kingdom of God? Not in the least. It is God who raises up genuine elders within the churches and gives them oversight authority over the flocks. The meaning of episkopos (bishop) is "overseer" -- one who not only rules, but ensures the welfare of the flock through his diligent oversight. So elders were pastor/elder/bishops. Furthermore, Christ promised the apostles that in His Kingdom they would sit on twelve thrones RULING the twelve tribes of Israel. So legitimate authority is a necessity in the churches and in God's Kingdom. And that is why 24 elders are seen surrounding the throne of God in Heaven. The number 12 is the number of Divine government, so 12 x 2 means double the emphasis on government.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What makes you think that the elders had no authority over the churches? Why don't you take some time to study out the matter? And why don't you tell us EXACTLY what this means without putting a spin on it?

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Heb 13:17)

It means to be persuaded/convinced by those who are leading and yield to their teachings.

Obey
G3982 πείθω peitho (pei'-tho) v.
1. to convince (by argument, true or false)

Have the rule over
G2233 ἡγέομαι hegeomai (hayg-eh'-om-ai) v.
1. to lead​

 

[Angela53510]

So, in conclusion, we can not really know what the Bible means.


I guess when you can't defend an argument you frustrate and twist it to the point the words of the Bible are meaningless.

I'm sorry, but you are exactly why I will not sit under a woman pastor. This is pure rubbish. I know women who even agree that it seems women pastors are noted for their unBiblical teachings. They're going to be in mis-truth way more than they're going to be in truth. That's why I think they become pastors. They have an agenda to teach what they want to be truth. And they seize and usurp the man's authority in teaching to fulfill that agenda. That's not a commentary on women. That's a commentary on rebellious women. They don't go into the ministry to teach what men teach. They go into the ministry to teach what they, a woman, wants to teach.

Sorry if you're offended, but that's the way I see it. You're a rebel.

Well, just to note, God called me not once, but twice to vocational ministry. And I am ordained, and I preach and teach in my church, and no one seems to care. In fact, a lot of people want me to preach more. If I was younger and not so sick, I would probably be seeking to lead a church, but God has given me other ministries.

As for your ignorant insults, I am totally submitted to my husband. That is the only person the Bible says I need to submit to.

I personally can think of a lot of insults to call you, but God has showed me how not to take offense at what people say. So, I forgive you! May God bless your life and your home!

 

[Lighthearted]

There are many that claim this to be a sure sign of genius.

Or completely nuts! I personally think it's how I organize the files in my brain to make me less forgetful...

 

[jaybird88]

Every aspect of life deals with an authority and command structure. In everything there must be chosen a leader. God has chosen man to be the leader in society and in the preaching of His word. Anyone believing in this is following the will of God and anyone opposing this clearly written command is opposing the will of God.

where is this command?

 

[Dino246]

When did church become about having authority over people?

What makes you think that the elders had no authority over the churches? Why don't you take some time to study out the matter? And why don't you tell us EXACTLY what this means without putting a spin on it?

... as you put a spin on what he wrote. That's rich.

 

[carl11]

Since we are on the subject of women in office can one point out from the OT where a woman was a high priest ?

Surely there has to be something because in reality the NT is part of the OT and the OT is part of the NT.

 

[Dino246]

Since we are on the subject of women in office can one point out from the OT where a woman was a high priest ?

Surely there has to be something because in reality the NT is part of the OT and the OT is part of the NT.

The "shadow" of the high priesthood in the OT is fulfilled completely and perfectly by Jesus Christ Himself. There is no human priesthood in the church; male or female.

"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete..." (Hebrews 8:13)

 

[loyaldisciple]

where is this command?

Here are just a few examples of God's commands concerning authority

1 Corinthians 11:3 [SUP]3[/SUP]But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Genesis 3:16 [SUP]16[/SUP]To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Titus 1:5-9 [SUP]5[/SUP]The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. [SUP]6[/SUP]An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. [SUP]7[/SUP]Since an overseer manages God's household, he must be blameless-not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. [SUP]8[/SUP]Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. [SUP]9[/SUP]He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

These are just a few of GOD'S commands dealing with authority. In every case the man is given the authority over the women and children. This is God's command structure in the order He has chosen. Man, woman, child.

 

[Dino246]

Here are just a few examples of God's commands concerning authority

1 Corinthians 11:3 [SUP]3[/SUP]But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Genesis 3:16 [SUP]16[/SUP]To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Titus 1:5-9 [SUP]5[/SUP]The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. [SUP]6[/SUP]An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. [SUP]7[/SUP]Since an overseer manages God's household, he must be blameless-not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. [SUP]8[/SUP]Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. [SUP]9[/SUP]He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

These are just a few of GOD'S commands dealing with authority. In every case the man is given the authority over the women and children. This is God's command structure in the order He has chosen. Man, woman, child.

Interesting... "authority" is only mentioned in one verse you quoted, and in that case it's a Greek word that doesn't mean "authority".

 

[Nehemiah6]

It means to be persuaded/convinced by those who are leading and yield to their teachings.

So you did put your spin on it after all. Shame on you. There is clearly more to it which you failed to present.

OBEY

Strong's Concordance

peithó: to persuade, to have confidence​

Original Word: πείθω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peithó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi'-tho)
Short Definition: I persuade, urge
Definition: I persuade, urge.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3982: Πειθώ
b.to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with: τίνι, one, Acts 5:36f, 39(); ; Romans 2:8; Galatians 3:1 Rec.;; Hebrews 13:17; James 3:3.

RULE
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2233: ἡγέομαι

b.to be a leader; to rule, command; to have authority over: in the N. T. so only in the present participle ἡγούμενος, a prince, of regal power (Ezekiel 43:7 for מֶלֶך; Sir. 17:17), Matthew 2:6; a (royal) governor, viceroy,Acts 7:10; chief,Luke 22:26 (opposed to ὁδιακονῶν); leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel,ἐντισί, among any, Acts 15:22; with the genitive of the person over whom one rules, so of the overseers or leaders of Christian churches: Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24.

SUBMIT

Strong's Concordance

hupeikó: to retire, withdraw, submit​

Original Word: ὑπείκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupeikó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-i'-ko)
Short Definition: I yield
Definition: I yield, submit to authority.

So when that verse is properly interpreted, it means EXACTLY what it says (not what you would like it to say). When we take the meanigns presented in Strong's and Thayer's, what Paul is saying by the Holy Spirit is that Christians within the local assembly must:

Listen to, obey, yield to, comply with those who have AUTHORITY over them, and submit to authority.

So the real issue is heart rebellion, is it not?

 

[jaybird88]

Here are just a few examples of God's commands concerning authority

1 Corinthians 11:3 [SUP]3[/SUP]But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 [SUP]11[/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12[/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13[/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Genesis 3:16 [SUP]16[/SUP]To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

Titus 1:5-9 [SUP]5[/SUP]The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. [SUP]6[/SUP]An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. [SUP]7[/SUP]Since an overseer manages God's household, he must be blameless-not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. [SUP]8[/SUP]Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. [SUP]9[/SUP]He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

These are just a few of GOD'S commands dealing with authority. In every case the man is given the authority over the women and children. This is God's command structure in the order He has chosen. Man, woman, child.

those are some great scriptures on authority. not sure what they have to do with what i asked. guess i should have been more specific. so let me ask again.
where is the command where the Most High says He forbids women to preach or lead a church? do you have a scripture for this, im pretty sure it does not exist.

 

[loyaldisciple]

those are some great scriptures on authority. not sure what they have to do with what i asked. guess i should have been more specific. so let me ask again.
where is the command where the Most High says He forbids women to preach or lead a church? do you have a scripture for this, im pretty sure it does not exist.

THE VERSES BELOW EXPLAIN RATHER CLEARLY THAT A WOMAN IS NOT TO PREACH WITHIN ANY CHURCH. BE PRETTY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO PREACH WHEN THEY CANNOT SPEAK, DON'T YOU THINK ?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[loyaldisciple]

Maybe the issue also is how men use their perception of authority over women.

I don't see any men on here "perceiving" any authority given unto them other than what is clearly defined in GOD'S own words. I don't see any men here condoning any abuse or mistreatment of women. What you are saying may be a problem in some instances with some men, however it has not shown to exist within these pages.

 

[jaybird88]

THE VERSES BELOW EXPLAIN RATHER CLEARLY THAT A WOMAN IS NOT TO PREACH WITHIN ANY CHURCH. BE PRETTY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO PREACH WHEN THEY CANNOT SPEAK, DON'T YOU THINK ?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

there is no mention of women teaching in church, where i come from we do not call this "clear explanation" we call it wishful thinking. so do you actually have a scripture to support your theory?
i have scripture that destroys this theory.

 

[loyaldisciple]

there is no mention of women teaching in church, where i come from we do not call this "clear explanation" we call it wishful thinking. so do you actually have a scripture to support your theory?
i have scripture that destroys this theory.

So, you declare it possible to preach without speaking. Then where you come from they rely not on common sense. You have no scripture to destroy the word of God. Scripture is the word of GOD.

 

[loyaldisciple]

DAN 6:5 Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.

DAN 6:6 Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.

DAN 6:7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.

DAN 6:8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

DAN 6:9 Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.

DAN 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

DAN 6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

DAN 6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

DAN 6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day.

DAN 6:14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him.

DAN 6:15 Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed.

DAN 6:16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.

DAN 6:17 And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel.

DAN 6:18 Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before him: and his sleep went from him.

DAN 6:19 Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions.

DAN 6:20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?

DAN 6:21 Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever.

DAN 6:22 My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.

DAN 6:23 Then was the king exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God.

DAN 6:24 And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den.

People should be careful whom they bear false witness against and whom they declare any misogynist, when the declared is simply following the word of God. For one day it may be them that finds themselves in a den of lions.

 

[jaybird88]

So, you declare it possible to preach without speaking. Then where you come from they rely not on common sense. You have no scripture to destroy the word of God. Scripture is the word of GOD.

i speak everyday to people, this does not mean i am preaching everytime i open my mouth.

your confused, i never said i intended to destroy the word of the Most High. only your idea, are you the Most High? we are commanded to test everything against scripture, everything would include your opinions.

Luke 2 36-38
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin, [SUP]37 [/SUP]and then as a widow until she was eighty-four.[SUP][f][/SUP] She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. [SUP]38 [/SUP]And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.

here we have a women and she is speaking in a temple, the scripture tell us she practically lived at the temple. this women was also elevated to the status of being a witness to the dedication of Jesus. why not two men if, according to you, women have a lesser role. maybe this passage has one man one woman to show the equality between the two.

so unless Paul is making new commands and setting scripture aside, which Jesus teaches can not be done, Paul is talking about something else. also keep in mind the berean Jews tested Pauls teachings against scripture, they found all his teachings in the Hebrew bible, there is no command in the Hebrew bible forbidding women to preach so obviously Paul was not teaching it.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Teaching is for the one who believes, and preaching is for the one who does not believe.

 

[loyaldisciple]

i speak everyday to people, this does not mean i am preaching everytime i open my mouth.

your confused, i never said i intended to destroy the word of the Most High. only your idea, are you the Most High? we are commanded to test everything against scripture, everything would include your opinions.

Luke 2 36-38
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin, [SUP]37 [/SUP]and then as a widow until she was eighty-four.[SUP][f][/SUP] She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.[SUP]38 [/SUP]And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.

here we have a women and she is speaking in a temple, the scripture tell us she practically lived at the temple. this women was also elevated to the status of being a witness to the dedication of Jesus. why not two men if, according to you, women have a lesser role. maybe this passage has one man one woman to show the equality between the two.

so unless Paul is making new commands and setting scripture aside, which Jesus teaches can not be done, Paul is talking about something else. also keep in mind the berean Jews tested Pauls teachings against scripture, they found all his teachings in the Hebrew bible, there is no command in the Hebrew bible forbidding women to preach so obviously Paul was not teaching it.

You are the one who is very confused. You reversed the equation. I never said one could not speak without preaching. I said one could not preach without speaking.

You certainly did say you had scripture to destroy scripture, because scripture was exactly what I gave to you. You went on to say you could destroy that "theory". It was not any theory, it was the word of God Himself. The words I gave you were not my words, so why do you contend I am referring to myself as Most High ? I referred to God as Most High by providing you with clearly written scripture.

You cannot take one exception to the rule and then claim that to be the rule. Paul was issued authority by God to clearly define the rule of preaching in the church, which authority was clearly given unto man. To point to all of time and to say that one woman did it also, does nothing to change the rule that was issued under God's authority. Your example does NOT destroy the rule issued by Paul. Not even close. Now if you can find a verse where someone given authority by God says that men should remain silent in the church while the women preach, then that would destroy the rule, but you can locate no such verse.