once saved always saved?
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There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation."
In John 2:23-25, we see where their "belief" was clearly superficial in nature. Also, in John 8:31-59 where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" were described as slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, not loving Jesus, dishonoring Jesus and accusing him of being demon possessed, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they had originally professed to believe in.
*So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, but they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him unto salvation" and become children of God/saved (John 1:12; 3:18).
The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth.
*People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.
People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." *Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this.
Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. Never was.
In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." Faith without works is dead.
In John 2:23-25, we see where their "belief" was clearly superficial in nature. Also, in John 8:31-59 where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" were described as slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, not loving Jesus, dishonoring Jesus and accusing him of being demon possessed, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they had originally professed to believe in.
*So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, but they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him unto salvation" and become children of God/saved (John 1:12; 3:18).
The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth.
*People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation.
People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." *Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this.
Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. Never was.
In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." Faith without works is dead.
J
A gift that you can either accept or reject it's not some trivial Christmas present that you can just "give back" or "throw away" or "give away" if you don't want it to say so is to believe God/Jesus to give "trivial" gifts and to believe God/Jesus as one who allows individuals to just simply "do what they want" which of course that's not true and above all the gift of salvation is not something any person can "touch" nor "see" and so once accepted seeing as how it's not "trivial" you can't be "rid of it" just the same as the "Holy spirit",when will vanity cease I wonder?
R
I understand Dan quite well, thanks 
However, your position yoyos all over the place, to the point where I have seen you say you can sit at home doing nothing and still know you are saved.
However, your position yoyos all over the place, to the point where I have seen you say you can sit at home doing nothing and still know you are saved.Lot's of people in the church today think their dead faith is saving faith. They are deceived. If they do not respond to the truth that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that then changes them into a different person then they are simply proving that they are not born again.
People can get mad about this if they want, and continue in their old lives, but I'm convinced born again people who aren't producing fruit who hear this truth will rise up in righteous indignation and seek to produce the fruit that they do not presently have in their lives.
It's all in how a person responds to the truth. We know who belongs to the truth and who does not by how they handle the truth about the necessity of the believer to produce works of righteousness (or else they are not born again).
2 Peter 2 in full context
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[SUP]a[/SUP] putting them in chains of darkness[SUP]b[/SUP] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[SUP]c[/SUP] and despise authority.Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[SUP]d[/SUP] the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[SUP]e[/SUP] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[SUP]f[/SUP] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[SUP]g[/SUP] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Anyone who says this does not specifically talk about people who believed and turned away is not being honest with themselves or God.
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[SUP]a[/SUP] putting them in chains of darkness[SUP]b[/SUP] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[SUP]c[/SUP] and despise authority.Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[SUP]d[/SUP] the Lord. 12But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[SUP]e[/SUP] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[SUP]f[/SUP] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.17These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[SUP]g[/SUP] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Anyone who says this does not specifically talk about people who believed and turned away is not being honest with themselves or God.