Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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One then you simply don't believe the Messiah;s words when He says "unless heaven and earth pass nothing will pass from the Law" or PS 89 or PS 105...
come now Hiz. we've had this conversation before.
first paragraph of Romans 7.
Romans chapter 6.

not one single yodh needs to be changed or removed from the Law in order for someone who has died to no longer be under it.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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I never said that or implied that.......and like normal you twist and embellish to make an invalid point.....both cited examples were before the law was given and NO ONE said that there are not examples to be found...what was addressed was your comment that we have always been under the covenant of grace....that is FALSE.......
You imply in your preaching that Grace and Truth from the Christ didn't exist until the Mainstream Preachers of His time tried to silence Him forever by killing Him.

But the Bible teaches that Christ's Grace was there for Cain, who rejected it, Noah, who accepted it and for Abraham who accepted it.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Isn't being accepted by God after we have rebelled against Him for a time, "Grace"? What is forgiveness about if it isn't to be accepted by God?

How is this twisting or even embellishing to make an invalid point? Are you saying that The Bible was embellishing to make an invalid point?

Gen. 6:
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Do you preach this a different "Grace" than Paul spoke of? Is this Grace from a "different Christ" in your religion?

How can you preach the Law wasn't given in Abraham's time given what the Word's of God actually say? Jesus said Abel was a Prophet of God. Why did God need a Prophet if there was no "Law"?

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Of course Levi wasn't even born yet, so we know Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood with it's sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" for Grace.

No sure where you get you information as the God of the Bible teaches one thing, and you preach another.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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I did not call JESUS is a liar. Your post was Very VAGUE at best, with NO SCRIPTURE to back it up, and IF you are now referring to:

Luke 16:16-17 (NASB)
16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.


I find NO indication that you did not think it CEASED. Yes the were proclaimed above is in Italics in the NASB, which was put there to indicate the proper interpretation of the verse.

Here is MacArthur's Commentary on Luke 16:16-17:



So, in conclusion, your answer A - is the proper answer, "The end of the age", IF you meant MORTAL MAN's AGE or DAY on this earth?

If you meant something Else, it was LOST in the Very Vague Post.

No brother, I am not trying to pick a fight, but honestly I found it difficult to understand just what you meant.
Who knows for sure what the end of the 'age' means. I would think that if Jesus meant the end of the world he would have said it, but he says 'age'. So not sure what he meant and how far in the future he meant?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
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North Carolina
Hi Star, just wondering is it not possible we can apply both to our life, instead of one or the other? Just wanted to know your point of view.

God bless

My point is that if we do not obey, we will at some point be disciplined. God wants us to obey as we do our children.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
come now Hiz. we've had this conversation before.
first paragraph of Romans 7.
Romans chapter 6.

not one single yodh needs to be changed or removed from the Law in order for someone who has died to no longer be under it.
Yes, disobedience to God killed us and brought us under the Law. But we have been freed from the death our action caused us so we can "SERVE" again. Serve who? The Pope, Jack Van Impe, Joyce Meyer? Or do we now:

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No Post, we are free from death so we can have another chance to Serve God, and follow His ways, not the ways of religious man.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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WERE YOU SENT BY GOD?


Luke 6:43-45 A Tree and Its Fruit “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. FOR OUT OF THE OVERFLOW OF HIS HEART , HIS MOUTH SPEAKS..


WHO ARE CLAIMING TO BE “STILL SINNERS” OUT OF THE OVERFLOW OF THEIR HEART???


John 3:34 For the one whom GOD HAS SENT speaks the words of God,

for God gives the Spirit without limit.




This thread and it’s author implies that there’s no need for works to a FAITH ALONE that SAVES(faith void of works).


SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS IF IT’S APART FROM FAITH (eph 2:8-9) JUST AS FAITH ALONE APART FROM WORKS OF LOVE,OBEDIENCE AND FAITH IS DEAD (james 2:14-26)


IF WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE (eph 5:23) AREN’T WE EXPECTED TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS (john 14:12-15)AND DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION (1cor 3:9, 12:28 mat 25:21-30, 9:37-38 eph 4:12-13, rom 12: 3-8, 1 tim 4:16) AS WE ARE TO DO HIS WILL HERE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN (mat 6:10)


John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is TO DO THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME AND TO FINISH HIS WORK. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I SENT YOU to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.”


John 5:36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and WHICH I AM DOING, TESTIFIES that the Father has SENT me.


John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who SENT me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.


John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, WE MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


John 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have SENT THEM into the world.


John 20:21-22 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I AM SENDING YOU.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.


Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


ONE SURE WAY TO RECOGNIZE THOSE WHO WERE NOT SENT ACCORDING TO THE VERSES ABOVE IS TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO.


DO THEY PREACH AGAINST THE WORKS THAT GOD HAS PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO BY SAYING THAT: “FAITH ALONE SAVES AND IT IS VOID OF WORKS.”?


DO THEY PREACH THAT; “WORKS ARE WORKS ARE WORKS.”?

THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDMENTS CANNOT SAVE EVEN THOSE BELIEVERS WHO CONFESS WITH THEIR MOUTHS THAT JESUS IS LORD AND BELIEVE IN THEIR HEARTS THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.


DO THEY PREACH THAT SINCE THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE SAVED REGARDLESS OF THEIR WILLFUL AND CONTINUOUS SINNING(manifested by their arguments against those who push for continuous faith and are against willful sinning).


DO THEY PROMOTE SIN BY SAYING THAT THOSE WHO ARE CLAIMING THAT THOSE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT IS A NEW CREATION AND THEREFORE MUST NOT SIN OR CEASE FROM SINNING, ARE LIARS ACCDG. TO 1JOHN 1:8 WHICH THEY LOVE TO QUOTE BUT REJECTING THE WHOLE TRUTH EXPRESSED IN THE BIBLE? WHICH ONLY PROVES THIS VERSES BELOW TO BE TRUE:


Romans 8:5-9 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds SET ON WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRIST.


WOULD THE SPIRIT OF GOD DESIRE SIN?


Galatians 2:17-18 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are SINNERS, does that mean that Christ PROMOTES SIN? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.


Romans 6:15 What then? SHALL WE SIN because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!


1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is ONE WITH HIM IN SPIRIT.


John 16:13 But when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11,15-20 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. AND THAT IS WHAT SOME OF YOU WERE. But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.


1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT .MY FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.


Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us.


Romans 6:21-23 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ASHAMED OF? Those things result in death! But NOW that you have been SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to HOLINESS, and the result is ETERNAL LIFE. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.


Romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only CONTINUE TO DO these very things but also APPROVE of those who practice them.


John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.


Psalm 49:13-14 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of THEIR FOLLOWERS, who APPROVE their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.


THEREFORE:


Romans 10:14-15 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? AND HOW CAN THEY PREACH UNLESS THEY ARE SENT? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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come now Hiz. we've had this conversation before.
first paragraph of Romans 7.
Romans chapter 6.

not one single yodh needs to be changed or removed from the Law in order for someone who has died to no longer be under it.
Hiz?
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
our Heavenly Father doesn't discipline us because we obey perfectly

He chastens us because we do not


both definitely apply to our lifes as new creatures with new desires and affections with a new heart that wants righteousness.....


but we still reside in our fallen sinful flesh.... which wants its own pleasure



we can obey... through walking in the spirit

or we will recieve discipline...
for acting out according to the flesh


it is one or the other in that sense


(right star?)

My point is that if we do not obey at some point we will be disciplined. As we want our children to obey for their own good, so does God want for us. He knows our weaknesses; He knows we are but dust. However, our goal should be to obey in order to live life in abundance. Let me add here, I fail at this often.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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20,395
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You imply in your preaching that Grace and Truth from the Christ didn't exist until the Mainstream Preachers of His time tried to silence Him forever by killing Him.

But the Bible teaches that Christ's Grace was there for Cain, who rejected it, Noah, who accepted it and for Abraham who accepted it.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Isn't being accepted by God after we have rebelled against Him for a time, "Grace"? What is forgiveness about if it isn't to be accepted by God?

How is this twisting or even embellishing to make an invalid point? Are you saying that The Bible was embellishing to make an invalid point?

Gen. 6:
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Do you preach this a different "Grace" than Paul spoke of? Is this Grace from a "different Christ" in your religion?

How can you preach the Law wasn't given in Abraham's time given what the Word's of God actually say? Jesus said Abel was a Prophet of God. Why did God need a Prophet if there was no "Law"?

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Of course Levi wasn't even born yet, so we know Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood with it's sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" for Grace.

No sure where you get you information as the God of the Bible teaches one thing, and you preach another.
You should have quoted the last line ans then applied unto yourself.......the bible is clear and you do not know what your talking about....again the Rose colored law glasses you wear have no magnification.....
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
I hear ya and fully agree........most have no understanding that sanctification is dual in usage.....positionally and eternally in Christ and then in our daily living/transformation found in Romans 12:1-2 and based upon NEW TESTAMENT instruction and the application thereof!
What happens when a person that is positionally and eternally in Christ and then does not make the transformation found in Romans 12?

Remember John 15 says that those branches IN ME (JESUS) that do not produce fruit (or do not make the transformation described in Romans 12) are taken away. IOW no OSAS.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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What happens when a person that is positionally and eternally in Christ and then does not make the transformation found in Romans 12?

Remember John 15 says that those branches IN ME (JESUS) that do not produce fruit (or do not make the transformation described in Romans 12) are taken away. IOW no OSAS.
If they do not make the transformation is it possible they were never saved in the first place?

Like the branches that were cut off.

Jesus rejected the goats and also those who claimed great works.

Would you agree that transformation is a process for those in Jesus?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
What happens when a person that is positionally and eternally in Christ and then does not make the transformation found in Romans 12?

Remember John 15 says that those branches IN ME (JESUS) that do not produce fruit (or do not make the transformation described in Romans 12) are taken away. IOW no OSAS.
Ps which part of Romans 12 are you referring to?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
Yes, disobedience to God killed us and brought us under the Law. But we have been freed from the death our action caused us so we can "SERVE" again. Serve who? The Pope, Jack Van Impe, Joyce Meyer? Or do we now:

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No Post, we are free from death so we can have another chance to Serve God, and follow His ways, not the ways of religious man.
This isn't true. We don't die to the Law so we can serve the Law again. We would be marrying the same old woman. But we are called into new marriage with the LIVING GOD.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
This isn't true. We don't die to the Law so we can serve the Law again. We would be marrying the same old woman. But we are called into new marriage with the LIVING GOD.
I've been married to the same old woman for 24 years:cool::cool::cool:

Although every day when we wake up it's like the day we got married.
We continue to walk in the vows we made before God.

Similar to the vows Jesus made to us.