Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
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again, please read Ephesians 1:13:
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
We heard
We trusted
We believed
We were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Does "regeneration" occur before or after hearing?
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
We heard
We trusted
We believed
We were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Does "regeneration" occur before or after hearing?
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Yep.
Really, what does the election of God and some mysterious saved before getting saved stop a broken-hearted sinner from reading AND UNDERSTANDING, "For God so loved the World that He gave . . .?"
It takes a Calvinist to darken the understanding by changing the word "WORLD" for "THE ELECT" . . . adding to the Word of God!!! Well, it's probably more of taking away from the Word of God.
Really, what does the election of God and some mysterious saved before getting saved stop a broken-hearted sinner from reading AND UNDERSTANDING, "For God so loved the World that He gave . . .?"
It takes a Calvinist to darken the understanding by changing the word "WORLD" for "THE ELECT" . . . adding to the Word of God!!! Well, it's probably more of taking away from the Word of God.
Yes, I'm fully aware of what you asked. But I'm sticking to my former response and waiting for you to address that before we move on.
And you're incorrect above. I didn't change that. I said they cannot perceive the Kingdom of God. You're the one who went on into "hear" brother. At the very least you're conflating hearing the Gospel with perceiving or seeing the Kingdom of God. I didn't change anything, you're not following along which is partly my fault.
I'll be glad to answer your question if we can stay on track because you're talking past me right now.
And you're incorrect above. I didn't change that. I said they cannot perceive the Kingdom of God. You're the one who went on into "hear" brother. At the very least you're conflating hearing the Gospel with perceiving or seeing the Kingdom of God. I didn't change anything, you're not following along which is partly my fault.
I'll be glad to answer your question if we can stay on track because you're talking past me right now.
ROFL
It is obvious to the casual observer that you that you fail to have researched the quinquarticular controversy. That both Calvinism and Armenianism have lengthy arguments for each of their positions. Here for your edification is more information about the Biblical evidence for both. Since you reject Calvinism you should easily refute the Biblical reasoning in the web site site of the Canons of Dort defending it. Refute away. Methinks you will have great difficulty. Going back to the creeds.
1. They define what a Christian must believe.
2. Anything contrary is heresy.
3. Every Biblical issuer outside is agree to disagree.
Guess where the Calvinism vs Arminianism fits. Oops! Agree to disagree. Have fun trying to refute either side. Please read the Biblical defense of both.
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
It is obvious to the casual observer that you that you fail to have researched the quinquarticular controversy. That both Calvinism and Armenianism have lengthy arguments for each of their positions. Here for your edification is more information about the Biblical evidence for both. Since you reject Calvinism you should easily refute the Biblical reasoning in the web site site of the Canons of Dort defending it. Refute away. Methinks you will have great difficulty. Going back to the creeds.
1. They define what a Christian must believe.
2. Anything contrary is heresy.
3. Every Biblical issuer outside is agree to disagree.
Guess where the Calvinism vs Arminianism fits. Oops! Agree to disagree. Have fun trying to refute either side. Please read the Biblical defense of both.
Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points
Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints
Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages
There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.
Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate
Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm
Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
Being sealed with that holy spirit of promise does not equate to being regenerated. After they had been given the Holy Spirit in regeneration, they were sealed ( confirmed), which is the earnest (pledge - down payment) of their inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (heaven). Regeneration occurs before hearing, trusting and believing in spiritual things. No Holy Spirit (which is given in regeneration = being born of the Spirit) no spiritual discerning.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever "BELIEVETH" (present tense) not "WILL BELIEVE" future tense. That would make it the "WORLD OF BELIEVERS". The natural man cannot discern (believe) spiritual things, only the regenerated, born of the Spirit believers. Saved means delivered in Greek. You need to rightly divide the salvation scriptures then you would understand "saved before getting saved".
Hmmm ... you disagree with my statement that "… the unbeliever rejects the truth that Christ died for the sins of all mankind … "
Yet you make the statement "while sufficient for all only those accepting the grace get it"
In other words, those who do reject do not receive the grace (the forgiveness of sins) even though the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind?
I believe Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to cover all the sins of all mankind. However, only those who do not reject Christ will receive God's grace and mercy. Those who do reject will stand before God on their own merit (which is nothing but filthy rags).
Yet you make the statement "while sufficient for all only those accepting the grace get it"
In other words, those who do reject do not receive the grace (the forgiveness of sins) even though the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient to cover the sins of all mankind?
I believe Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to cover all the sins of all mankind. However, only those who do not reject Christ will receive God's grace and mercy. Those who do reject will stand before God on their own merit (which is nothing but filthy rags).
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right. you will not answer the question.
Here is the discussion:
Me #585
In other words, a person must be born again before he/she can "hear and believe the spiritual gospel"?
You #586
A person must be born again before they can see the kingdom of God
Please note: here, you changed my question from whether a person can "hear the gospel" to "see the kingdom of God".
Me #587
Can everyone "hear the Gospel"?
In other words, does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the Gospel"?
You #589
First, show me where God doing this work is false, and show where no person can perceive these things until they are born again as false too.
Please note: "perceive these things" relates to my question about "does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the Gospel". "
Me #640
My question was "does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the gospel"?"
Instead of answering, you reply with the above, which does not answer the question and you changed the question from "hear" to gospel to "perceive" the gospel.
You #646
Yes, I'm fully aware of what you asked. But I'm sticking to my former response and waiting for you to address that before we move on.
Me ... this post:
It is impossible to have a discussion with one who manipulates and dodges.
First of all, i am "sister".
Second of all, please recall who changed what in the discussion. Thank you
I asked a very simple question which you have yet to answer.
You deny changing anything when it is apparent you did.
No need to answer the question. From the responses I've gotten from you, it appears you are not interested in staying "on track".
Here is the discussion:
Me #585
In other words, a person must be born again before he/she can "hear and believe the spiritual gospel"?
You #586
A person must be born again before they can see the kingdom of God
Please note: here, you changed my question from whether a person can "hear the gospel" to "see the kingdom of God".
Me #587
Can everyone "hear the Gospel"?
In other words, does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the Gospel"?
You #589
First, show me where God doing this work is false, and show where no person can perceive these things until they are born again as false too.
Please note: "perceive these things" relates to my question about "does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the Gospel". "
Me #640
My question was "does a person have to be "elect" to be able to "hear the gospel"?"
Instead of answering, you reply with the above, which does not answer the question and you changed the question from "hear" to gospel to "perceive" the gospel.
You #646
Yes, I'm fully aware of what you asked. But I'm sticking to my former response and waiting for you to address that before we move on.
Me ... this post:
It is impossible to have a discussion with one who manipulates and dodges.
First of all, i am "sister".
Second of all, please recall who changed what in the discussion. Thank you
I asked a very simple question which you have yet to answer.
You deny changing anything when it is apparent you did.
No need to answer the question. From the responses I've gotten from you, it appears you are not interested in staying "on track".
That Christ suffered the uttermost penalty of sin for every soul every born on this world is the justification for each unsaved sinner to pay the uttermost for his sins in an eternal lake of fire. The wages of SIN is death. SIN is singular. Each SIN is punished by death. Multiplied a mans sin at 1 sin per day for one year is 365 death penalties, times ten tears is 3,650 sentences of death times 7 years (total of 70 year life span) is 25,550. And that is for only ONE SIN PER DAY. In reality, how many times does the typical man sin in a 24-hour span? By the end it is millions of death sentences that can only be paid for in the Lake of Fire . . . but there will be no end . . . there is no end of sin with man.
Yet Jesus Christ on Calvary paid for every single one of my sins PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE and I am free from the Law and it's penalty of death!!!
There will be a lot of 'If only's" uttered in the Lake of Fire.
Yet Jesus Christ on Calvary paid for every single one of my sins PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE and I am free from the Law and it's penalty of death!!!
There will be a lot of 'If only's" uttered in the Lake of Fire.
Regeneration = Greek word paliggenesia (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
When you claim a person must be "regenerated" before he/she can hear the word of God, you are saying that a person must be born again before he/she can "hear" the Word which he/she trusts and believes which results in the believer being sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (born again).
Again, look at Eph 1:13:
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
We trusted after we heard the word of truth; then we believed the gospel of salvation; then we were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 1:13 does not state that regeneration occurs before hearing.
When you claim a person must be "regenerated" before he/she can hear the word of God, you are saying that a person must be born again before he/she can "hear" the Word which he/she trusts and believes which results in the believer being sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (born again).
Again, look at Eph 1:13:
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
We trusted after we heard the word of truth; then we believed the gospel of salvation; then we were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 1:13 does not state that regeneration occurs before hearing.
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Yep, that was me.
Now, when you answer the above I will answer your question about the elect only hearing, but not until then.
I was quite clear, and so is John 3:3, no person can see (perceive) the Kingdom of God until they are born again. You've gone into whether people can hear THE GOSPEL or not other than the elect.
But, I can understand why you don't want to answer the above "quote" of mine you've used. I'd like you to answer what I actually stated instead of moving on to something else and wanting an answer to that as if you never saw what I said. So, one more time, answer the above, then I will most gladly answer your other question. Thank you.
Now, when you answer the above I will answer your question about the elect only hearing, but not until then.
I was quite clear, and so is John 3:3, no person can see (perceive) the Kingdom of God until they are born again. You've gone into whether people can hear THE GOSPEL or not other than the elect.
But, I can understand why you don't want to answer the above "quote" of mine you've used. I'd like you to answer what I actually stated instead of moving on to something else and wanting an answer to that as if you never saw what I said. So, one more time, answer the above, then I will most gladly answer your other question. Thank you.
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