Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

[ForestGreenCook]

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

There is an old thread revived that asks why Christians are afraid of Yoga.
I think Christians are made afraid of so many things because false teachings make them first believe they're still at risk of dying condemned, even when they think they're redeemed. So they're terrified of anything else that may be in this world, like Yoga, meditation, (Jesus meditated), etc... Because it just compounds the insecurity and the fear Jesus didn't finish it all on the cross.

There was a guy once making his rounds in Bible forums till they all got rid of him. He insisted every time a Christian sinned they were no longer in God's saving grace. So that if they sinned in one moment and died the next they'd go to Hell.
He got that teaching from somewhere. And it was his mission, as he told us, to spread the truth.
He was lying!
Jesus does not have to be re-crucified every time you sin! It is all about the finished work on the cross.
Trust the holy spirit inside you to lead you to all truth. Maybe the reason we don't feel secure is because we're first not sure he's there.


You Can’t Lose Fellowship With God
June 3, 2011The Gospel of Grace (Used with permission granted 8/2017)

There are many who believe that you have fellowship with God until you sin and that fellowship is broken when you sin. The fellowship is then regained as soon as you confess your sin and ask forgiveness. This is how many people think but they do not realize that this is old covenant thinking.

Let’s look at the old testament for a second. In the old testament it was the blood of bulls and goats that provided temporal and limited righteousness and forgiveness. It was temporal because when sin would happen the process would have to be repeated by the sacrifice of an animal. Can you look at the similarities in what I mentioned above? Many of us today will believe that God will be angry and leave us when we sin and the only way back to Him is through confession and asking of forgiveness. I want to tell you that this thinking is old covenant thinking and not what Christ died for.

As a new covenant believer the blood of Jesus is continual and constant not temporary and limited. Because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross you are never out of fellowship with God and your sins are immediately forgiven and forgotten because they are not seen because of the perfect covering of the lamb’s blood (Christ).

Lets make this perfectly clear:
Jesus does not have to be crucified repeatedly every time you sin. When you continually confess your sin and wait for the answer of forgiveness you are living under the old covenant and crucifying Jesus each time. Jesus died once, and that one death was enough for ALL of our past, present and future sins. You have only one part in the new covenant (which we will talk about tomorrow) and that is calling on the name of Jesus and believing in His finished work. That is it, no more no less.
In the new covenant because of the sacrificed blood of Jesus; when you fail, relationship and fellowship with God are not broken. Why? Because your sins and failures have all been paid for at the cross. How can you ever lose your righteousness in Christ when it is based entirely on His perfect work and not your imperfection?

WHEN YOU FAIL, RELATIONSHIP AND FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD ARE NOT BROKEN.
“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness… — Daniel 9:24
As a new covenant believer, you are righteous not only until your next sin. You have everlasting righteousness!

I am trying to capture what you are saying. When you sin, you think that you do not have to repent. Or maybe you think that you do not sin. I am trying to understand your mindset. Do you, or do you not sin?

 

[preacher4truth]

Are you going to give me an explanation of 2 Tim 2:13? Or just ignore it too? Or maybe you can give me an evasive answer.

You have lots of posts to answer my friend. You go first.

 

[Lillywolf]

I am trying to capture what you are saying. When you sin, you think that you do not have to repent. Or maybe you think that you do not sin. I am trying to understand your mindset. Do you, or do you not sin?

Did you try to read the article?
Christians Do Not Sin - 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9) This verse is straightforward, clear, and easy to understand. People who are born of God do not commit sin.
Oracles of Fire: Christians Do Not Sin - 1 John 3:9
oraclesoffire.blogspot.com/2013/02/christians-do-not-sin-1-john-39.html

 

[preacher4truth]

I am trying to capture what you are saying. When you sin, you think that you do not have to repent. Or maybe you think that you do not sin. I am trying to understand your mindset. Do you, or do you not sin?

Let's leave Trollywolf to make her own thread on sinless perfection, or whatever her subject matter is and not derail this thread please. Thank you.

 

[Endoscopy]

It has become necessary to post this here since we have this false doctrine being peddled on CC of late. Believe it or not, I care about people and wish to help protect the flock from error! Please note and take time to read Acts 20:28-30 and other Scriptures provided.

Please do not be deceived by the "Conditional Time Salvation" heresy promoted and peddled by Primitive Baptists otherwise known as "Hardshells" or "Hardshell Baptists". They are merely seeking converts to their teaching while at the same time being anti-evangelistic. There has to be another outlet when one turns to such false teaching, and it extends itself in them trying to reach others with their false gospel and to make "converts."

Nearly every post will be about this heresy, they focus on this to poison the well and deceive others.

Understand who this is coming from, and realize that Hardshells or Primitive Baptists are against these things:

1) That preaching the Gospel is God's means to save his people with an eternal salvation in Christ; 1 Corinthian 1:18; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 1, 2 &c.

2) They are against missionary work.

3) They stand against contextual eternal salvation as revealed in the NT Scriptures.

These deny what they call "means salvation" (their terminology) and will ridicule others for their "Gospel means" preaching, in other words for believing Scripture that God uses this preaching to save his people, eternally. Note Romans 10:13-17 for example. So they would call others who believe this in Romans "Gospel means" preachers or "means preachers" and it is meant to be derogatory.

The logical conclusion of their teaching is hyper-Calvinism, and is totally anti-evangelistic, anti-missionary, anti-Gospel. The latter they will deny because they've truncated the Gospel into their meaning of "gospel," making it completely false; note Galatians 1:8-10. They will also deny they are in any fashion "Calvinistic" but only to avoid the fitting label of "hyper-Calvinism."

Please read these excerpts that explain this better than I can. I will provide a link at the end or further reading:

"Secrecy" of some sort is a characteristic of a cult. Christians have their "secrets" (Psa. 25:14; Prov. 3:32), but the distinctive secrets of the Hardshell cult are not the secrets of God or of His kingdom."

"Their primary "secret" revelation concerns the doctrine they call "Time Salvation." You have to be trained in Hardshell "dogma" to know all that the words convey. What the Hardshells believe the terminology, "Time Salvation," represents would never cross the average Bible reader's mind. You have to hear it from a Hardshell to be introduced to and informed in the meaning of its theological “jargon.”

"It is an integral part of the Hardshell DEFENSE and APOLOGETIC, for their "Spirit Alone" and "No-Means Regeneration" theories, to get their opponents or would be "converts" to inbibe <sic> all the teachings involved in this doctrine of "Time Salvation."

"It will become obvious to most who read this essay on Hardshellism, that these Hardshells, who have historically opposed any thing "new," i.e. "inventions," have themselves, ironically and hypocritically, introduced many new things under the Baptist and Christian name, at least in doctrine."

Read more here.

Going back to the 212 to 500 era where bibles were very expensive and rare since a scribe took months to copy one. The elders back then created the creeds as an evangism tool along with selected Bible verses they memorized. They define 3 things.
1. What a Christian must believe.
2. Anything contrary to it is heresy.
3. All other Biblical issues are6 agree to disagree.

The basic question is do the hardshell baptists adhere to the creeds or not. Here is the Apostles Creed

Apostles Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth.
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and from thence will come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost,
the holy universal Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
Note:Some versions use catholic with a small c and the meaning of catholic is universal. This version avoids the incorrect seeming connection to the Catholic Church.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You do understand that my stand is that we are never lost eternally, once we have been regenerated. Do you understand what I am saying. We lose our fellowship with God only until we repent, not eternally. And, yes, we lose his fellowship as often as we sin and that can be on a daily basis. In that sense, we are , lost from his fellowship, delivered, lost from his fellowship, delivered, lost from his fellowship, delivered. every day of our lives, if we sin that often. That is why I make the statement that most of the deliverance (salvation) scriptures are pertaining to a timely deliverance (salvation). Anytime you see scripture that includes, repent, confess, believe, accept etc. the scripture is referring to God's regenerated children. These terms are actions that are required by man to be saved which would be a deliverance by man's good works. Timely deliverance (salvation) is accomplished by man's good works, repenting, accepting, confessing etc.

You are reading into the texts what is not there. You are teaching heresy that our relationship with God is broke then restored, broke the restored, broke then restored every time we sin.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

There is an old thread revived that asks why Christians are afraid of Yoga.
I think Christians are made afraid of so many things because false teachings make them first believe they're still at risk of dying condemned, even when they think they're redeemed. So they're terrified of anything else that may be in this world, like Yoga, meditation, (Jesus meditated), etc... Because it just compounds the insecurity and the fear Jesus didn't finish it all on the cross.

There was a guy once making his rounds in Bible forums till they all got rid of him. He insisted every time a Christian sinned they were no longer in God's saving grace. So that if they sinned in one moment and died the next they'd go to Hell.
He got that teaching from somewhere. And it was his mission, as he told us, to spread the truth.
He was lying!
Jesus does not have to be re-crucified every time you sin! It is all about the finished work on the cross.
Trust the holy spirit inside you to lead you to all truth. Maybe the reason we don't feel secure is because we're first not sure he's there.


You Can’t Lose Fellowship With God
June 3, 2011The Gospel of Grace (Used with permission granted 8/2017)

There are many who believe that you have fellowship with God until you sin and that fellowship is broken when you sin. The fellowship is then regained as soon as you confess your sin and ask forgiveness. This is how many people think but they do not realize that this is old covenant thinking.

Let’s look at the old testament for a second. In the old testament it was the blood of bulls and goats that provided temporal and limited righteousness and forgiveness. It was temporal because when sin would happen the process would have to be repeated by the sacrifice of an animal. Can you look at the similarities in what I mentioned above? Many of us today will believe that God will be angry and leave us when we sin and the only way back to Him is through confession and asking of forgiveness. I want to tell you that this thinking is old covenant thinking and not what Christ died for.

As a new covenant believer the blood of Jesus is continual and constant not temporary and limited. Because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross you are never out of fellowship with God and your sins are immediately forgiven and forgotten because they are not seen because of the perfect covering of the lamb’s blood (Christ).

Lets make this perfectly clear:
Jesus does not have to be crucified repeatedly every time you sin. When you continually confess your sin and wait for the answer of forgiveness you are living under the old covenant and crucifying Jesus each time. Jesus died once, and that one death was enough for ALL of our past, present and future sins. You have only one part in the new covenant (which we will talk about tomorrow) and that is calling on the name of Jesus and believing in His finished work. That is it, no more no less.
In the new covenant because of the sacrificed blood of Jesus; when you fail, relationship and fellowship with God are not broken. Why? Because your sins and failures have all been paid for at the cross. How can you ever lose your righteousness in Christ when it is based entirely on His perfect work and not your imperfection?

WHEN YOU FAIL, RELATIONSHIP AND FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD ARE NOT BROKEN.
“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness… — Daniel 9:24
As a new covenant believer, you are righteous not only until your next sin. You have everlasting righteousness!

You are a better person that I, if you say that when you are born again that you do not ever sin again and walk in the light all of the time. Do you believe that you are never chastened by God sense your new birth?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Did you try to read the article?
Christians Do Not Sin - 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9) This verse is straightforward, clear, and easy to understand. People who are born of God do not commit sin.
Oracles of Fire: Christians Do Not Sin - 1 John 3:9
oraclesoffire.blogspot.com/2013/02/christians-do-not-sin-1-john-39.html

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.(1 John 1)

 

[preacher4truth]

Going back to the 212 to 500.

Creeds aren't an exhaustive list as to what constitutes heresy. Scripture is.

 

[Lillywolf]

You are a better person that I, if you say that when you are born again that you do not ever sin again and walk in the light all of the time. Do you believe that you are never chastened by God sense your new birth?

These discussions at this stage tend to go back and forth ad infinitum. I'll say that I believe what the Bible tells every Christian.
I think we should remember God's grace and Christ's horrific suffering and death on the cross to make those truths eternal for all who come to repentance.
If we believe we are still a sinner who sins, when we know what that means for those who are not today redeemed, we are making ourselves no different with such labels than that which we once were.

We are either redeemed for all God intends that to mean eternally. Or we are not.

 

[preacher4truth]

This thread isn't about sinless perfection, so please stop derailing the thread over who is the most righteous and holy before God.

As to "Lily"wolf, your behavior on CC betrays your theory that you're sinless, many are aware of this.

Enough said, please stop derailing this thread. If you want to talk about this issue, start your own thread to toot your horn in.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are reading into the texts what is not there. You are teaching heresy that our relationship with God is broke then restored, broke the restored, broke then restored every time we sin.

Jesus taught a doctrine that he says is a mystery to most people by his design and the Holy Ghost reveals the mystery to but a few. All of the many different doctrines in the world today believe their doctrine is the doctrine that Jesus taught. None of us can know for certain, but we do know that the inspired scriptures must harmonize to be the true doctrine of Jesus. God's ways are higher than our ways and he has not revealed a lot of the truths of the doctrine of Jesus to any of us. The only gauge that we can go by is to try to get the scriptures to harmonize by not ignoring any of them and not agreeing to disagree. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Jer 6:16 - Stand ye in the ways, and see, ask for the old paths where is the good way and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. I know that it is not up to me to convert anyone to the doctrine, as I understand it, but it is up to the Holy Ghost within a person to reveal. I do enjoy discussing the scriptures in defense of the doctrine and appreciate you tolerating my responses.

 

[Hevosmies]

The reason why most calvinists prefer subways and trains over taxis is because the taxi driver asks "where do YOU WANT to go".
Whereas the trains and subways are predestined to go to place A or B!

 

[PennEd]

These discussions at this stage tend to go back and forth ad infinitum. I'll say that I believe what the Bible tells every Christian.
I think we should remember God's grace and Christ's horrific suffering and death on the cross to make those truths eternal for all who come to repentance.
If we believe we are still a sinner who sins, when we know what that means for those who are not today redeemed, we are making ourselves no different with such labels than that which we once were.

We are either redeemed for all God intends that to mean eternally. Or we are not.

We are declared justified by the Blood of Christ in His righteousness through faith. Problem is we still have our sin nature.

So even though we have been justified (positionally saved) we still sin. But our sin is no longer imputed to us.

Now, the Holy Spirit will sanctify us to MAKE US RIGHTEOUS. Or transform us into the likeness of Jesus. I don't believe anyone fully attains complete sanctification until we receive our resurrected bodies.

We are NOT sinners that sin, but rather saved Children of God that sin.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

These discussions at this stage tend to go back and forth ad infinitum. I'll say that I believe what the Bible tells every Christian.
I think we should remember God's grace and Christ's horrific suffering and death on the cross to make those truths eternal for all who come to repentance.
If we believe we are still a sinner who sins, when we know what that means for those who are not today redeemed, we are making ourselves no different with such labels than that which we once were.

We are either redeemed for all God intends that to mean eternally. Or we are not.

All of those that Christ died for on the cross are redeemed and will live in heaven, without the lose of even one. In a covenant relationship God looks upon those as holy and without blame as far as their eternity is concerned, but they still, as they live their lives here on earth do fight a battle within themselves, as Paul explains in the Galatians letter.

 

[preacher4truth]

We are declared justified by the Blood of Christ in His righteousness through faith. Problem is we still have our sin nature.

So even though we have been justified (positionally saved) we still sin. But our sin is no longer imputed to us.

Now, the Holy Spirit will sanctify us to MAKE US RIGHTEOUS. Or transform us into the likeness of Jesus. I don't believe anyone fully attains complete sanctification until we receive our resurrected bodies.

We are NOT sinners that sin, but rather saved Children of God that sin.

Wow, I guess this should be a sinless perfection thread.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Jesus taught a doctrine that he says is a mystery to most people by his design and the Holy Ghost reveals the mystery to but a few. All of the many different doctrines in the world today believe their doctrine is the doctrine that Jesus taught. None of us can know for certain, but we do know that the inspired scriptures must harmonize to be the true doctrine of Jesus. God's ways are higher than our ways and he has not revealed a lot of the truths of the doctrine of Jesus to any of us. The only gauge that we can go by is to try to get the scriptures to harmonize by not ignoring any of them and not agreeing to disagree. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Jer 6:16 - Stand ye in the ways, and see, ask for the old paths where is the good way and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. I know that it is not up to me to convert anyone to the doctrine, as I understand it, but it is up to the Holy Ghost within a person to reveal. I do enjoy discussing the scriptures in defense of the doctrine and appreciate you tolerating my responses.

Thank you for your civil post in the above my friend. I just can not see your beliefs jiving with the scriptures. Yes, it is God who saves. However, God uses means to accomplish His will here on earth.

God could have taken every Jew in Egypt and transported them into the promised land. However, He chose Moses to do that for Him. He used means to do this. He could unilaterally save everyone, but He chose the means of the proclamation of the gospel to save His elect people.

God uses means to save.

 

[PennEd]

Wow, I guess this should be a sinless perfection thread.

You think my post means I believe in sinless perfectionism? Kinda baffled by that as I pretty much state the exact opposite.

 

[preacher4truth]

You think my post means I believe in sinless perfectionism? Kinda baffled by that as I pretty much state the exact opposite.

You've missed the forest for the trees, I've not made such an implication.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You think my post means I believe in sinless perfectionism? Kinda baffled by that as I pretty much state the exact opposite.

He’s stating the thread is slowly morphing into a sinless perfection thread my friend. LW is trying to hijack his OP. He’s wanting this thread to stay on point, which is about ‘conditional time salvation’, not sinless perfection.