Not By Works

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Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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WOW.... I agree with you I would not walk out of that church....... I would run out.


Have you noticed any of those trends in other denominations as well? When we have the time Me and my family sing at different churches 4 revivals etc.... All different denominations and I have noticed some of those trends Creepin in to other churches as well
Yup! I have noticed it in almost all denominations. They are also all crawling back to Rome.

I've seen the following denominations have representatives meet the Pope in those wicked ecumenical meetings:

Pentecostals
Reformed
Baptist
Methodist
Lutheran (YES LUTHERAN, the guys who started the reformation, looks like thats about done)
Orthodox
Anglican
Presbywhateveritwasian

Even MORMON representatives were present!

Its over! The few faithful remnants need to be separated from this crop and start their own independent churches!
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
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Sorry, you did not give me any Scripture that states "that ETERNAL LIFE cannot be lost, forfeited, walked away from, or misplaced?" All you did is use the definition of an English word to try to prove your point.

Did you ever think to look at what eternal life really is? Among other texts, this one might help: John 17:3: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Amen!!!! Also.....
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4 KJV

Habitual sinners that refuse to keep his Commandments does not have eternal life........ Eternal life is knowing him
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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Sorry, you did not give me any Scripture that states "that ETERNAL LIFE cannot be lost, forfeited, walked away from, or misplaced?" All you did is use the definition of an English word to try to prove your point.

Did you ever think to look at what eternal life really is? Among other texts, this one might help: John 17:3: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Please do tell me what eternal life means? Im very interested to hear what you believe it means.
You are right, I only did look it up in two languages that I speak.

Unlike some here, i dont actually read, NOR speak greek. I can look things up in lexicons though and they match what I read in my english bible!

So knowing God equals eternal life, huh? Jesus says just that in John 10:26-27! Sheep know Jesus and Jesus knows the sheep! Yet those He casts to hell in Matthew 7:21-23 He says "I never knew you".
So those cast into hell didnt "stop knowing Jesus" (which would be losing eternal life) but rather Jesus never knew them.
And those sheep who DO have eternal life, surprise, have it eternally, since they know Jesus!

So I agree with John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus!

Oh and one more thing, I can prove my poitn from the greek, looks like it agrees with my peasant level english: https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

Look I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed. In fact I got no education whatsoever. If I see "no service" on my phone on a sunday walking to church im turning back thinking church is canceled! Thats how dumb I am.
But I can STILL look up words in the greek, and believe them in english,, and you have to do some mighty mental exercises to convince me that ETERNAL, everlasting, never-ending means something other than that. I am willing to listen if you want to try, but thats quite a task!
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
Yup! I have noticed it in almost all denominations. They are also all crawling back to Rome.

I've seen the following denominations have representatives meet the Pope in those wicked ecumenical meetings:

Pentecostals
Reformed
Baptist
Methodist
Lutheran (YES LUTHERAN, the guys who started the reformation, looks like thats about done)
Orthodox
Anglican
Presbywhateveritwasian

Even MORMON representatives were present!

Its over! The few faithful remnants need to be separated from this crop and start their own independent churches!
I couldn't agree more
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
13,008
113
58
Peter "when thou art converted..... strengthen thy brethren
So you believe that Peter had to get saved all over again after having a weak moment and temporarily falling away? Do you believe in multiple regenerations? Luke 22:32 (NASB) - but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” Peter needed to turn again to Jesus, away from his temporary falling away. That does not mean that Peter lost his salvation and ultimately, his faith did not fail.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
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113
Please do tell me what eternal life means? Im very interested to hear what you believe it means.
You are right, I only did look it up in two languages that I speak.

Unlike some here, i dont actually read, NOR speak greek. I can look things up in lexicons though and they match what I read in my english bible!

So knowing God equals eternal life, huh? Jesus says just that in John 10:26-27! Sheep know Jesus and Jesus knows the sheep! Yet those He casts to hell in Matthew 7:21-23 He says "I never knew you".
So those cast into hell didnt "stop knowing Jesus" (which would be losing eternal life) but rather Jesus never knew them.
And those sheep who DO have eternal life, surprise, have it eternally, since they know Jesus!

So I agree with John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus!
The most important thing about eternal life is the noun which is "life". And real "life" is knowing Jesus Christ - who is the "life".

If eternal life was primarily "living forever" then we could say that unbelievers have eternal life when they burn in hell forever.

But many discussions on CC do just that to "eternal life" -- the primary interest or emphasis of "eternal life" is said to be "to live forever".

So if "eternal life" is primarily knowing Jesus, then is it possible to lose that? Back to our question: Is there a verse that says "ETERNAL LIFE cannot be lost, forfeited, walked away from, or misplaced"?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
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Anaheim, Cali.
It seems to me to be the solution would be If saved always saved because the question is often were they ever really saved? We all agree the faith is the hinge but which is the door, works or grace? What do we have true faith in?

I don't trust that works will ever be good enough and grace is not a license to sin that would contradict the reason he has mercy on us. He want's us to love Him voluntarily and not at the end of a cattle prod. So I have faith in grace and in spite of my sinful flesh I want to please him thus his grace is sufficient for me. It helps me get over myself. I am not a parrot or a tape recorder. The true meaning of the gospel dwells within my circumcised heart.

Galatians ch. 3 vs 23 - 25:
23 "Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody," (like school children) "so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed."


24 "Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian." (We are now adults!)

I'd rather have the mind of an elder with the heart of a child than the heart of an elder with the mind of a child!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,001
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Amen!!!! Also.....
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4 KJV
Who is teaching otherwise? 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. BTW the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time, as sinless perfectionists teach.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5083.htm

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

Habitual sinners that refuse to keep his Commandments does not have eternal life........ Eternal life is knowing him
Those who have come to know Him display the habit of keeping His commandments and do not practice sin as a willful, habitual lifestyle, with no effort or goal to stop. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10 NASB).
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
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That is not what you said or implied..........

WHAT YOU SAID

Goodnewsman said:
All of his disciples thought Jesus woild overthrow Rome and establish his kingdom on this Earth
Show me one Bible scholar that disagrees with my statement (except for you of course)

What do you think they meant when they ask Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

That's why his disciples had such a hard time when Jesus said he would be crucified and die......
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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So if "eternal life" is primarily knowing Jesus, then is it possible to lose that? Back to our question: Is there a verse that says "ETERNAL LIFE cannot be lost, forfeited, walked away from, or misplaced"?
I already covered that, througouhly!

Eternal life is knowing Jesus. OK!
Those who Jesus casts to hell He says "I never knew you" not "i used to know you"
To the sheep Jesus says they know Him and He knows them!

Therefore we can conclude, the sheep know Jesus, and are eternally secure. (I give them eternal life, they shall NEVER perish)

And yes there is a verse like that, here is an example:

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And me being the poor o' uneducated gypsy only going by the english word eternal(its the same word in my native language too btw) as you mentioned. I decided to work my two remaining braincells and look up the word eternal in the greek, here are the three definitions:


1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.

2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρό χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.

3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16;

So we got, without beginning or end, without beginning, without end.

That doesnt sound like something you can misplace or forget at the gas-station!

You can read more about the definitions and usage of the word here: https://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

I believe I have PROVEN my point that! Does eternal life mean knowing Jesus as you quoted? YES! Who know Jesus? The sheep, to whom Jesus gives eternal life, who shall NEVER perish (not maybe perish).
I believe not only have I proven the case biblically, BUT also from your first line of defense which was "the greek", it looks like that greek argument backfired on you, since it supported what i said! I notice people try me on the GREEK often times. NOT A FAN of going back to the greek, but i have to do it OCCASIONALLY!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If you think Peter was was not saved yet and or lost salvation you should do your congregation a favor..be honorable and resign.....
Dcon

I don't believe Peter was "saved" at that point either. Was anyone saved before the Cross? It was Abraham's bosom that was the place in hell for the righteous. Hell was two parts. Wicked and the righteous with a great gulf in between.

He didn't lose salvation either. He was saved when he repented of his denial. That's the Spirit of Christ that Paul said unless we have we are none of His. The point where we are surrendered. Though I also believe we experience many surrenderings as we live in Him.

Salvation has brought men to heaven where we can be with God. In His Presence.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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So I have convinced you that habitual sinners have no part in the kingdom of God???

You accused me of lying.....prove it?

Do you still believe this nonsense or are you now converted?
Your words prove it..namely the bolded....

Goodnewsman said:
You may want to let your OSAS friends on here know that you can't be a habitual sinner and be saved......that's exactly what I've heard on here continully
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
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Chester, now you are NOT THINKING. It is NOT ETERNAL if it can BE LOST. I think you know this, but it is the human spirit that has Eternal Life in IT. The Body will Die, then it will be raised ETERNAL.



Here is the evidence that YOU ASKED FOR:

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (HCSB)
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also put eternity in their hearts [human spirit], but
man cannot discover the work God has done from beginning to end.

Isaiah 46:10 (HCSB)
10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying:
My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.*

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.*

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice,
I know them [Born Again], and they follow Me.
28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*[.SELF IS INCLUDED IN NO ONE.]
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


Hebrews 13:5 (HCSB)
5 Your life should be free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for He Himself has said,
I will never leave you or forsake you.*


John 14:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- *
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.



Paul Harvey: "AND THAT IS THE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . REST OF THE STORY!"
I asked for a verse that states "that ETERNAL LIFE cannot be lost, forfeited, walked away from, or misplaced?"

The only verse above that mentions "eternal life" is John 10:26-30 and verse 27 clearly says this is about sheep that are hearing Jesus' voice and who are knowing Him, and who are following Him. When verse 27 is true of a person, then verses 28-30 follow. If verse 27 is not true of a person, then verses 28-30 do not follow.

I am OK to disagree about definitions and understanding of eternal life. You may believe what you want about OSAS and I respect your beliefs. I am just a stickler that I will not believe and state a doctrine as what I believe unless it is clearly stated in Scripture.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Dcon

I don't believe Peter was "saved" at that point either. Was anyone saved before the Cross? It was Abraham's bosom that was the place in hell for the righteous. Hell was two parts. Wicked and the righteous with a great gulf in between.

He didn't lose salvation either. He was saved when he repented of his denial. That's the Spirit of Christ that Paul said unless we have we are none of His. The point where we are surrendered. Though I also believe we experience many surrenderings as we live in Him.

Salvation has brought men to heaven where we can be with God. In His Presence.
You might want to restudy that.....especially when Peter confesses who JESUS is by the Spirit of GOD......These men were saved, immersed and CALLED OUT, organized and called THE church twice in the present tense....and DAVID speaks of HIS salvation in the present TENSE long before the cross........
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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Yup! I have noticed it in almost all denominations. They are also all crawling back to Rome.

I've seen the following denominations have representatives meet the Pope in those wicked ecumenical meetings:

Pentecostals
Reformed
Baptist
Methodist
Lutheran (YES LUTHERAN, the guys who started the reformation, looks like thats about done)
Orthodox
Anglican
Presbywhateveritwasian

Even MORMON representatives were present!

Its over! The few faithful remnants need to be separated from this crop and start their own independent churches!
There have always been issues and fallacies that needed to be corrected in the Lord's churches....such as

The Galatian assembly had some false teachers teaching that salvation was started by faith and finished by works

The Corinthinian assembly had some 15 errors

The church at Ephesus had a problem with LOVE even though it had an abundance of works

The church at Thessalonica had issues with the 2nd coming and believed they had missed it

and for sure....today we make the mistake of assuming that a church is a church just because it identifies as a church.......
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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I asked for a verse that states "that ETERNAL LIFE cannot be lost, forfeited, walked away from, or misplaced?"

The only verse above that mentions "eternal life" is John 10:26-30 and verse 27 clearly says this is about sheep that are hearing Jesus' voice and who are knowing Him, and who are following Him. When verse 27 is true of a person, then verses 28-30 follow. If verse 27 is not true of a person, then verses 28-30 do not follow.

I am OK to disagree about definitions and understanding of eternal life. You may believe what you want about OSAS and I respect your beliefs. I am just a stickler that I will not believe and state a doctrine as what I believe unless it is clearly stated in Scripture.
Every promise of God is made conditional by reading into the text something! Eisegesis the pros call it!

John 10:27-28 the conditional security english translation from the original codex decepticus manuscripts:
My sheep hear my voice[maybe, if they choose to do so by free will], and I know them[unless they stop knowing me, or stop believing, or sin to much], and they follow me[unless they use their free will to stop following me]:
And I give unto them eternal life[maybe, if they live a good enough life and dont sin too much]; and they shall never perish[maybe, unless they apostate from the faith], neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand[except they themselves, they are excluded from the any man, since free will].

Looks like you guys are selling us DOUBT! 50% off!
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
Who is teaching otherwise? 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. BTW the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time, as sinless perfectionists teach.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5083.htm

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

Those who have come to know Him display the habit of keeping His commandments and do not practice sin as a willful, habitual lifestyle, with no effort or goal to stop. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9-10 NASB).
So you agree then, habitual sinners don't have eternal life?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Chester, now you are NOT THINKING. It is NOT ETERNAL if it can BE LOST. I think you know this, but it is the human spirit that has Eternal Life in IT. The Body will Die, then it will be raised ETERNAL.



Here is the evidence that YOU ASKED FOR:

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (HCSB)
11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also put eternity in their hearts [human spirit], but
man cannot discover the work God has done from beginning to end.

Isaiah 46:10 (HCSB)
10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying:
My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.*

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.*

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice,
I know them [Born Again], and they follow Me.
28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*[.SELF IS INCLUDED IN NO ONE.]
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


Hebrews 13:5 (HCSB)
5 Your life should be free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for He Himself has said,
I will never leave you or forsake you.*


John 14:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- *
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.



Paul Harvey: "AND THAT IS THE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . REST OF THE STORY!"
Eternal Life - Eternal - time that never ends Life - consciousness, the ability to choose and to express
Death - the ending of life, physically, spiritually
Could one have Eternal Life, a life that will never stop ( unless things change ), and then not?
We have life now. So is Eternal Life, our Life now going on eternally.

If Eternal Life is the promise God will not stop the life we have, then if this promise is removed we no longer
have Eternal Life. You could though only tell at the point life is taken from one.

So to establish this point in scripture you have to prove God is not just saying He is promising not to take life
away from the group who believe in His Son.