A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[Dino246]

Well brother we don't always agree but I admire your clear headed responses. You are direct without being nasty. I appreciate straight forward people who can agree to disagree. So even if we don't agree I appreciate you. But in this instance you're 100% correct. Well said.

Thanks for the kind words.

I find it curious that VCO quoted that post of mine as reason why he put me on Ignore.

 

[VCO]

Ahh so now I'm a pagan. A babbling pagan who is cursing Christ by demonic power. Whelp nothing to be offended about there. smh Waste of breath.

Now you are telling a falsehood, I DID NOT SAY you are not Christian. YOU MADE THAT UP IN YOUR OWN MIND. I said I believe you are using the Ecstatic Feeling Oriented tongues just like the Pagans did at least 400 years before Christ, which is a psychological phenomena, and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Nothing resembles the TRUE GIFT OF TONGUES, which was an APOSTOLIC GIFT OF TONGUES, when BY MIRACLE, they were ABLE TO SPEAK to Unbelieving JEWS, specifically the Mighty works of GOD, AND in the CORRECT ACCENT. That TRUE GIFT CEASED, when the New Testament was Complete:

1 Corinthians 13:8 (YLT)
8 The love doth never fail; and whether there be prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;

Mark 16:20 (YLT)
20 and they, having gone forth, did preach everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word, through the signs following. Amen.

Now if you still disagree, it has nothing to do with me, it is between you and God. Can we now just agree to disagree.

 

[kaylagrl]

Thanks for the kind words.

I find it curious that VCO quoted that post of mine as reason why he put me on Ignore.

I think VCO is very touchy about this subject. I don't know what happened in the past to make him this way. I don't think I've ever put people on ignore here. I may not answer them but never put anyone on ignore that I recall. I'm adult enough to handle it. But I do understand some people just can't make peace and have to put each other on ignore. But the thing is,in heaven we can't put each other on ignore,so we better settle it down here.

 

[kaylagrl]

Now you are telling a falsehood, I DID NOT SAY you are not Christian. YOU MADE THAT UP IN YOUR OWN MIND. I said I believe you are using the Ecstatic Feeling Oriented tongues just like the Pagans did at least 400 years before Christ, which is a psychological phenomena, and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Nothing resembles the TRUE GIFT OF TONGUES, which was an APOSTOLIC GIFT OF TONGUES, when BY MIRACLE, they were ABLE TO SPEAK to Unbelieving JEWS, specifically the Mighty works of GOD, AND in the CORRECT ACCENT. That TRUE GIFT CEASED, when the New Testament was Complete:

1 Corinthians 13:8 (YLT)
8 The love doth never fail; and whether there be prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;

Mark 16:20 (YLT)
20 and they, having gone forth, did preach everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word, through the signs following. Amen.

Now if you still disagree, it has nothing to do with me, it is between you and God. Can we now just agree to disagree.

I DID NOT SAY you are not Christian.I said I believe you are using the Ecstatic Feeling Oriented tongues just like the Pagans did at least 400 years before Christ, which is a psychological phenomena, and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.


So I'm getting Pagan faker,thank you I feel much better now.



Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,


5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;


6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;


7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.


10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.



When will the perfect come? Then, for now we see,but then. Take the whole thing into context. No we don't agree and as long as you keep answering with your POV I will give mine. We can still do that and respect each other like adults can't we? We'll see.

 

[VCO]

I think VCO is very touchy about this subject. I don't know what happened in the past to make him this way. I don't think I've ever put people on ignore here. I may not answer them but never put anyone on ignore that I recall. I'm adult enough to handle it. But I do understand some people just can't make peace and have to put each other on ignore. But the thing is,in heaven we can't put each other on ignore,so we better settle it down here.

No, I am not mad, I absolutely believe the HOLY SPIRIT guided me to write and present that study. I will believe it until the day I die. I LITERALLY HAVE BEEN HIT with the SAME old arguments, way too many times. Now if you want, you can come over to my house in heaven to discuss it. It may be a Cabin on the first bend in River, that flows from the Throne of GOD.

 

[VCO]

[QUOTE="kaylagrl, post: 3891794, member: 207700]"So I'm getting Pagan faker,thank you I feel much better now. [/QUOTE]


I DID NOT SAY THAT EITHER, just quote exactly what I said.

In my opinion it is Natural Phenomena, not of the Holy Spirit.

You trust in the FEELINGS, while I TRUST IN THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[kaylagrl]

No, I am not mad, I absolutely believe the HOLY SPIRIT guided me to write and present that study. I will believe it until the day I die. I LITERALLY HAVE BEEN HIT with the SAME old arguments, way too many times. Now if you want, you can come over to my house in heaven to discuss it. It may be a Cabin on the first bend in River, that flows from the Throne of GOD.

Please don't take this as mocking. But I have a simple question. If speaking in tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, interpretation of tongues, etc. have all ceased how is it that the Holy Spirit guided you to write that study? Wouldn't that be under the knowledge category? Honest question.

As to the cabin I love them. I bought my father collectable plates that create a picture when placed together of a cabin with the light on at night. There is a river and a dock and ducks floating past. Now here is something we can agree on because that sounds like heaven to me. A little cabin in the corner,isn't that the old song? Never hear it anymore.

 

[VCO]

Please don't take this as mocking. But I have a simple question. If speaking in tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, interpretation of tongues, etc. have all ceased how is it that the Holy Spirit guided you to write that study? Wouldn't that be under the knowledge category? Honest question.

As to the cabin I love them. I bought my father collectable plates that create a picture when placed together of a cabin with the light on at night. There is a river and a dock and ducks floating past. Now here is something we can agree on because that sounds like heaven to me. A little cabin in the corner,isn't that the old song? Never hear it anymore.

1 Corinthians 13:8 (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.


Again I answered that TONGUES would cease, on the first Page of my Study, so I know you only skimmed over it at best. You did not read it thoroughly. As far as a cabin is concerned, there is a story behind. Back when we were trying to find a Conservative Bible Church to attend, back in early summer of 1980, a Baptist Missionary said in his closing remarks to his sermon, "The reason I serve the LORD, is I do not want the little cabin on the Crystal River that flows out back the Throne of GOD; I want the Biggest, Fanciest Mansion on the Street of GOLD." HE TURNED LOVING SERVICE FOR THE LORD, INTO A GREEDY QUEST FOR THE Biggest, Fanciest Mansion in Heaven. HE SERVES FOR THE WRONG REASON, and the right reason is simply PURE LOVE FOR HIM. That was the First TIME we attended that CHURCH, and the LAST TIME. On the way to the car, I said to my wife (whom the LORD called home 3.5 years ago), "I do not care if HE wants to give me the little cabin out back, I just want to be there with HIM."

Bring your fishing pole, the Crystal River Trout will be biting.


IS THIS THE SONG ?

Here is another oldie:

 

[kaylagrl]

1 Corinthians 13:8 (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.


Again I answered that TONGUES would cease, on the first Page of my Study, so I know you only skimmed over it at best. You did not read it thoroughly. As far as a cabin is concerned, there is a story behind. Back when we were trying to find a Conservative Bible Church to attend, back in early summer of 1980, a Baptist Missionary said in his closing remarks to his sermon, "The reason I serve the LORD, is I do not want the little cabin on the Crystal River that flows out back the Throne of GOD; I want the Biggest, Fanciest Mansion on the Street of GOLD." HE TURNED LOVING SERVICE FOR THE LORD, INTO A GREEDY QUEST FOR THE Biggest, Fanciest Mansion in Heaven. HE SERVES FOR THE WRONG REASON, and the right reason is simply PURE LOVE FOR HIM. That was the First TIME we attended that CHURCH, and the LAST TIME. On the way to the car, I said to my wife (whom the LORD called home 3.5 years ago), "I do not care if HE wants to give me the little cabin out back, I just want to be there with HIM."

Bring your fishing pole, the Crystal River Trout will be biting.


IS THIS THE SONG ?

Here is another oldie:

Well let's tackle the songs first. Yes, that is the right song,done a bit differently. Thanks for sharing,I haven't heard that since I was a kid. I've heard the Cathedrals in person more than once and met a couple of them. They have done so many songs down over the years. This music isn't fashionable in church anymore, certainly not for people my age. But this is what I grew up on. I always find it weird that I know hymns by heart that people twice my age don't know,let alone those younger than me. JMO there is nothing to bring us closer into the presence of God then the old hymns of the church. I don't mind worship songs, but the words seem repetitive to me compared to the old hymns. But again perhaps that's my background growing up in the church.

Yes,tongues will cease when the perfect has come and knowledge will pass away. So again,my question remains. How did the Holy Spirit give you knowledge in your study if knowledge is gone? Either way I think we agree on the hymns and that's a step in the right direction.

 

[RickyZ]

The blaspheme the Spirit is to equate the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit unto the devil and a state of unbelief....

And isn't denying Biblical tongues a SIGN OF UNBELIEF? Isn't denying an authentic use of them as an act of the Holy Spirit by default then attributing it to satan?

 

[RickyZ]

Um the context of that passage is corporate tongues in a church service.

The context of 1 Cor 14 is time and place...

 

[RickyZ]

And thats the problem. On both sides of the debate..

Its one thing when salvation is in question. But this is a non salvic subject. And to be hating on each other is just not right.

I'm not so sure - re-read the passages about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and then tell me those who deny an authentic occurrence aren't committing that very act.

 

[RickyZ]

Well good night if it was salvic how much nastier could it get?! I can get along with anyone that says "let's agree to disagree,I don't see what you see". But not here. Not in the BDF. I often think I hope new Christians or non-Christians never come here. It's the last place they'll find the love of God. And the pity is these people have been on the road long enough to know better!! In 20yrs of ministry I traveled in all denominations from Catholic to Pentecostal and all points in between. And yet never have I seen the nasty spirit and the arrogance I have witness in the BDF. So much for encouraging each other in the faith. smh Some of you must be awful unhappy in your day to day lives. EG at least you and I can both agree and disagree with kindness,I hope we can always keep it that way. Blessings.

Unfortunately the whole world is itching for a fight - sadly we get caught up in that too.

 

[RickyZ]

I think VCO is very touchy about this subject. I don't know what happened in the past to make him this way. I don't think I've ever put people on ignore here. I may not answer them but never put anyone on ignore that I recall. I'm adult enough to handle it. But I do understand some people just can't make peace and have to put each other on ignore. But the thing is,in heaven we can't put each other on ignore,so we better settle it down here.

I wish the ignore function went both ways - if you put someone on ignore, not only should you not see their posts, they shouldn't see yours. And I'm sure that when we get to heaven we will all have a good laugh at how wrong ALL of us are/were!

 

[RickyZ]

No, I am not mad, I absolutely believe the HOLY SPIRIT guided me to write and present that study. I will believe it until the day I die. I LITERALLY HAVE BEEN HIT with the SAME old arguments, way too many times. Now if you want, you can come over to my house in heaven to discuss it. It may be a Cabin on the first bend in River, that flows from the Throne of GOD.

And just as many people genuinely believe the Holy Spirit guided them to a completely different answer.

That is what I fear will drive new believers away. Heck if the veterans can't get it together, what chance do they have?

 

[RickyZ]

You trust in the FEELINGS, while I TRUST IN THE WORD OF GOD.

I trust in RESULTS. If the Word of God says "do this and you'll see that", then I do this and see that, you'll have a hard time convincing me that it's not of God.

 

[wolfwint]

Wie ich schon sagte, entweder von Gott oder von Satan. Und ich würde aufpassen, welches Pferd ich unterstützte. Den Heiligen Geist zu lästern ist eine sehr ernste Sache.

Tja, das ist richtig.
Die deutschen führenden Leiter haben damals(1909)
diese Pfingstlehre mit ihren Begleiterscheinungen als von "unten"also von Satan bezeichnet, selbst Brüder, die zunächst offen waren.
Wäre das was in Azuza gelehrt und erfahren wurde auch im NT zu finden, wäre ich davon überzeugt, das diese Lehre von Gott ist
Aber ich kann diese Lehre nicht im NT gelehrt finden. Ausser man konstruiert diese Lehre aus Ereignissen in der Apostelgeschichte, die gar nicht als Lehre gedacht waren. ( Zumindest spricht diese Auslegung nicht gegen das was im NT weiter gelehrt wird)

 

[kaylagrl]

Tja, das ist richtig.
Die deutschen führenden Leiter haben damals(1909)
diese Pfingstlehre mit ihren Begleiterscheinungen als von "unten"also von Satan bezeichnet, selbst Brüder, die zunächst offen waren.
Wäre das was in Azuza gelehrt und erfahren wurde auch im NT zu finden, wäre ich davon überzeugt, das diese Lehre von Gott ist
Aber ich kann diese Lehre nicht im NT gelehrt finden. Ausser man konstruiert diese Lehre aus Ereignissen in der Apostelgeschichte, die gar nicht als Lehre gedacht waren. ( Zumindest spricht diese Auslegung nicht gegen das was im NT weiter gelehrt wird)

Nun, ich glaube, was in der Apostelgeschichte passiert ist, ist das, was heute passiert. Ich habe zu viele Dinge gesehen, um nicht zu glauben, dass Zungen echt und echt sind. Der Vers sagt das, wenn das Vollkommene gekommen ist. Ich denke, wenn man die gesamten Dinge in einen Kontext einbezieht, könnte man sehen, dass Zungen für heute sind. Leider missbrauchen und missbrauchen Sie dieses Geschenk. Aber das sollte nicht von denen ablenken, die das tun, was Paulus sagt, um nicht zu verwirren. Ich hoffe, eines Tages werden Ihre Augen geöffnet, wie es bei meinem baptistischen Freund geschehen ist. Hey, vielleicht lerne ich Deutsch. Ich bin deutsch auf meiner Mutterseite.

 

[VCO]

Well let's tackle the songs first. Yes, that is the right song,done a bit differently. Thanks for sharing,I haven't heard that since I was a kid. I've heard the Cathedrals in person more than once and met a couple of them. They have done so many songs down over the years. This music isn't fashionable in church anymore, certainly not for people my age. But this is what I grew up on. I always find it weird that I know hymns by heart that people twice my age don't know,let alone those younger than me. JMO there is nothing to bring us closer into the presence of God then the old hymns of the church. I don't mind worship songs, but the words seem repetitive to me compared to the old hymns. But again perhaps that's my background growing up in the church.

Yes,tongues will cease when the perfect has come and knowledge will pass away. So again,my question remains. How did the Holy Spirit give you knowledge in your study if knowledge is gone? Either way I think we agree on the hymns and that's a step in the right direction.

Never said anything about Knowledge, the Bible says only Tongues will cease.


Now I KNOW we have a common interest Christian Music. And your spirit and mine can minister to each other on that subject, even though we differ on Tongues.


I have a Music Thread called: WHAT KIND OF CHRISTIAN MUSIC BLESSES YOUR HEART.
https://christianchat.com/christian...-of-christian-music-blesses-your-heart.89552/

When they changed it to this NEW FORMAT, the older formatted videos, you will have to go to YouTube to get them to play. I have a WIDE VARIETY OF MUSIC THAT BLESSES MY HEART. Here is a rather new one that can bless my socks off, every time I play it:

 

[wolfwint]

Nun, ich glaube, was in der Apostelgeschichte passiert ist, ist das, was heute passiert. Ich habe zu viele Dinge gesehen, um nicht zu glauben, dass Zungen echt und echt sind. Der Vers sagt das, wenn das Vollkommene gekommen ist. Ich denke, wenn man die gesamten Dinge in einen Kontext einbezieht, könnte man sehen, dass Zungen für heute sind. Leider missbrauchen und missbrauchen Sie dieses Geschenk. Aber das sollte nicht von denen ablenken, die das tun, was Paulus sagt, um nicht zu verwirren. Ich hoffe, eines Tages werden Ihre Augen geöffnet, wie es bei meinem baptistischen Freund geschehen ist. Hey, vielleicht lerne ich Deutsch. Ich bin deutsch auf meiner Mutterseite.[/QUOTE
Thats Great. von woher kommen deine deutschen Vorfahren?

The Problem i dont See in the speaking in tongues. As the Lord can uses all Kind of miracles today.
The Problem i See in this pentecostal/ charismatic Doctrine which binds together speaking in tongues and baptism in / ore with the Holy Spirit es a proof for the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
This simply cant be, because Paul says that not all are getting the Gift if speaking in tongues. (1.Cor.12,30) This would mean christians would be excludet from the baptism with the Holy Spirit.