Twinkling of an eye

[dcontroversal]

You still did not read that YOU POSTED "keep out of"

Too funny

But yes he keeps us OUT of it.

Again you have bolstered the pretrib rapture.
Thanks!

Are you dense.....I typed it....now think about the idiocy of saying I did not read it......and NO he does not KEEP us out of IT....HE guards US THROUGH IT...wake up pal....there is no imminent rapture of anyone......POST trib pre wrath INGATHERING......and quit lying through your teeth....I bolstered nothing.....like I said....you pre tribbers are as dishonest as they come.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Question.
Are you postrib rapture guys aware that the trumpets blown are DURING THE GT ?? THE SEVENTH INCLUDED??
They PRECEED THE VIAL/BOWL judgements.
How is last trump possibly seventh trump????

But you guys paint yourself in a corner because the dead in christ rise at the at the last trump,so your deal is IMPOSSIBLE.
Rev 14 has 3 gatherings which YOU GUYS UNKNOWINGLY PLACE BEFORE THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE.
Your wishy washy recklessness reprints the bible to say the dead in christ DO NOT preceed the living.

But hey just pretend you have the high ground. It got you this far.

You must be dense......Revelation is not in chronological order genius......and LAST is LAST......what a joke

and BOWLS are NOT TRUMPS or are you too optically challenged to see that!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Just for the readers (I've mentioned this before, but again for clarity), biblically speaking, the word "return" is used solely in the contexts of His Second Coming to the earth (not our Rapture): Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [that is, as ALREADY-WED]... THEN the meal [i.e. the G347 thing, in Mt8:11 and parallel]; and in Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" and then He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities"..."[likewise to him] Be thou over 5".

"Imminence" has to do only with the idea that all biblical "SIGNS" FOLLOW after [the moment of] our Rapture (none preceding it). This is not to say that there are no other biblical indicators, or that we are to be entirely clueless. It has only to do with "sequence/chronology," in that, all biblically-defined "signs" take place sequentially AFTER our Rapture (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" taking place AFTER our Departure/Rapture, and being the FIRST moments of the [7-yr] Trib, paralleling both Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and Rev6:2 [not to mention 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26] as well]) and LEAD UP TO and point toward His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (not our Rapture).

Thus, technically, the words "imminence" and "return" do not belong in the same context or phrase (as they refer to distinct things at distinct points in the chronology). Pre-tribbers don't say this; they [we Pre-tribbers] don't use such a phrase (unless they are just mindlessly repeating what they've heard others say )

Just to make things clear.

The only thing you made clear is that you have no inkling of the word Parousia and the Grandsville Sharp used in 2nd Thessalonians 2.....but by all means keep flappin.....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The only thing you made clear is that you have no inkling of the word Parousia and the Grandsville Sharp used in 2nd Thessalonians 2.....but by all means keep flappin.....

I've said that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is speaking (in its two phrases) of ONLY ONE THING (ONE EVENT), our Rapture. Verse 1: ONE SUBJECT ONLY! [that's G-S-rule!]

What the Thessalonians wrongly believed "IS PRESENT" [v.2] is a completely distinct thing, and correlates with their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they were ongoingly ENDURING [2Th1:4], an earthly time period involving "judgments" (and other "negative" issues: "DARKNESS" ["PANGS"] etc).

Paul is saying to them, "no, it is not present" and tells "WHY" (and again discloses the SEQUENCE--how our Rapture ['IN THE AIR' ][v.1] "FITS" IN RELATION [time-wise] TO the DOTL [earthly] time period).

Then he says (basically), "don't believe THEM [v.2], believe US and what WE taught you!" [v.15]

 

[dcontroversal]

I've said that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is speaking (in its two phrases) of ONLY ONE THING (ONE EVENT), our Rapture.

What the Thessalonians wrongly believed "IS PRESENT" (v.2) is a completely distinct thing, and correlates with their PRESENT and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE experiences they were ongoingly ENDURING [2Th1:4], and earthly time period involving "judgments" (and other "negative" issues: "DARKNESS" etc).

Paul is saying to them, "no, it is not present" and tells "WHY" (and again discloses the SEQUENCE--how our Rapture ['IN THE AIR' ][v.1] "FITS" IN RELATION [time-wise] TO the DOTL [earthly] time period).

Then he says (basically), "don't believe THEM [v.2], believe US and what WE taught you!" [v.15]

You do understand that the IMMINENT return cannot be possible in light of the ONE event listed in 2nd Thessalonians.....HAVE you seen the MAN of SIN sitting on the throne claiming to be GOD and worshiped as GOD....NO.....THE body PRESENCE and OUR gathering CANNOT take place until that EVENT has transpired....NOW...use your brain......serious!!!

THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME UNTIL.............AFTER the events listed in Matthew 24, LUKE 21 MARK 13 takes PLACE, AFTER the MAN of SIN is worshiped as GOD sitting on the THRONE and A FEW OTHER select ITEMS take PLACE...THEN and ONLY THEN can a MAN say truthfully that the RETURN of CHRIST is at HAND........IE so called RAPTURE

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You do understand that the IMMINENT return cannot be possible in light of the ONE event listed in 2nd Thessalonians.....HAVE you seen the MAN of SIN sitting on the throne claiming to be GOD and worshiped as GOD....NO.....THE body PRESENCE and OUR gathering CANNOT take place until that EVENT has transpired....NOW...use your brain......serious!!!

THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME UNTIL.............AFTER the events listed in Matthew 24, LUKE 21 MARK 13 takes PLACE, AFTER the MAN of SIN is worshiped as GOD sitting on the THRONE and A FEW OTHER select ITEMS take PLACE...THEN and ONLY THEN can a MAN say truthfully that the RETURN of CHRIST is at HAND........IE so called RAPTURE

Paul is telling them, Don't be convinced by those TELLING you that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD] STARTS with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5--G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE')] and is followed by the rest of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse. It is NOT "ONE and DONE"! [as in, birth-pang-singular and DONE. No!]... there are many MORE even after "the BEGINNING of birth pangs [plural]" and these all lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [but those ALL FOLLOW our Rapture--Paul is saying in v.3 "that day [the DOTL earthly time period (from v.2!)] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST* [ONE EVENT FIRST (v.1's ONE EVENT), AND the man of sin be revealed..." [Matt24:4/Mk13:5/SEAL #1/the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (the the "IN THE NIGHT"[DOTL] aspect: "DARK/"DARKNESS" [/judgments] before the FULL LIGHT OF DAY [/blessings] portion of it)])

 

[SpoonJuly]

Paul is telling them, Don't be convinced by those TELLING you that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD] STARTS with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5--G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE')] and is followed by the rest of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse. It is NOT "ONE and DONE"! [as in, birth-pang-singular and DONE. No!]... there are many MORE even after "the BEGINNING of birth pangs [plural]" and these all lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [but those ALL FOLLOW our Rapture--Paul is saying in v.3 "that day [the DOTL earthly time period (from v.2!)] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST* [ONE EVENT FIRST (v.1's ONE EVENT), AND the man of sin be revealed..." [Matt24:4/Mk13:5/SEAL #1/the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (the the "IN THE NIGHT"[DOTL] aspect: "DARK/"DARKNESS" [/judgments] before the FULL LIGHT OF DAY [/blessings] portion of it)])

I do not mean to be rude brother, but this post is almost impossible for me to read and understand with all the added stuff.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The problem in interpretation comes in when v.3 is read and a reader then reaches CLEAR BACK OVER [skipping back past and over] v.2 and ITS Subject to ascertain what v.3 is talking about (and that is grammatically incorrect) by reaching past v2 to grab the Subject of verse 1.

But that is not what Paul is saying. He's saying "that day will not be present if not [unless/except]..." meaning "the DOTL" they wrongly believed [or were at risk of wrongly believing] "IS PRESENT" (the earthly time period involving "judgments / darkness / pangs").

THAT DAY will not be present if not shall have come [ONE THING *FIRST*]...


[recall, I've mentioned: when the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in the same contexts as the phrase "the DOTL," that they refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD... and this is also the case in these TWO CHPTS, where BOTH are used and BOTH refer to a period of time BEFORE HIS/CHRIST's Arrival]

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul is telling them, Don't be convinced by those TELLING you that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (the Day of the Lord [TIME PERIOD] STARTS with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5--G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE')] and is followed by the rest of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse. It is NOT "ONE and DONE"! [as in, birth-pang-singular and DONE. No!]... there are many MORE even after "the BEGINNING of birth pangs [plural]" and these all lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth [but those ALL FOLLOW our Rapture--Paul is saying in v.3 "that day [the DOTL earthly time period (from v.2!)] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure *FIRST* [ONE EVENT FIRST (v.1's ONE EVENT), AND the man of sin be revealed..." [Matt24:4/Mk13:5/SEAL #1/the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (the the "IN THE NIGHT"[DOTL] aspect: "DARK/"DARKNESS" [/judgments] before the FULL LIGHT OF DAY [/blessings] portion of it)])

You make about as much sense as the roosters all crowing at the same time.....the 2nd Coming, Rapture, Body Presence ARE ALL one and the SAME EVENT with three different ASPECTS.........exactly why you pre tribbers MISS the mark.....

WAS
IS
IS TO COME <----once not twice, three times or more.........geesh

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not mean to be rude brother, but this post is almost impossible for me to read and understand with all the added stuff.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I'll say..........I was raised in an IMMINENT return church, had it crammed down my throat, dogmatically defended it.....UNTIL I actually started studying and being HONEST with context, verbiage, the definition of words etc.....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

ALL SEVEN YEARS are accounted for in 2Th2... so that "the man of sin BE REVEALED" [part] is not taking place at mid-trib [listed under #2 below] (or what some refer to as "1260-days [42mos] remaining [till the end]"), as is commonly repeated (but incorrect), but instead takes place WELL-BEFORE that, at the START of the 7 yrs! (2Th2:9a = Dan9:27a[26] "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]").

1) BEGINNING - "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" [Dan7:7; etc]; 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26]

2) MIDDLE - "who opposeth… exalteth...sitteth" 2Th2:4/Dan9:27b

3) END - "whom the Lord shall...consume... destroy" 2Th2:8b/Dan9:27c


The "he , he, he" of Dan9:27 is the "who, who, who" of 2Th2 (all seven years accounted for in EACH of these two passages); and which "STARTING POINT" [#1] aligns with a number of other passages I've already pointed out (regarding said person).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You make about as much sense as the roosters all crowing at the same time.....the 2nd Coming, Rapture, Body Presence ARE ALL one and the SAME EVENT with three different ASPECTS.........exactly why you pre tribbers MISS the mark.....

The Thessalonians wrongly believed "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [v.2]. It wasn't and Paul is telling them "WHY".

Ponder that awhile.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I do not mean to be rude brother, but this post is almost impossible for me to read and understand with all the added stuff.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Thank you.

It is difficult to just place the straightforward sentence Paul was conveying when folks have commonly mis-defined his words/phrases, and mis-take grammatical things, and lump distinct items into one-[incorrect]-idea, so that they completely miss what it is that Paul was actually conveying in this text. Wrenching out the incorrect in order to replace it with the correct [definitions, grammar, etc] is a more tedious job than merely stating it simply and directly (because of the firmly-fixed presuppositions that also need to be addressed, before the message he was conveying can be seen clearly). I apologize if that all comes across as complicated. It wouldn't if not for this... I can put another post that just states simply what Paul was saying (the problem enters when the one "reading" defines the words and phrases in an entirely different way than is intended to be understood).

 

[dcontroversal]

The Thessalonians wrongly believed "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [v.2]. It wasn't and Paul is telling them "WHY".

Ponder that awhile.

I have for over 30 years.........and it will NOT be present until numerous events take place....ONE being the man of sin being revealed, THE SON of Perdition....PONDER that....!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

ALL SEVEN YEARS are accounted for in 2Th2... so that "the man of sin BE REVEALED" [part] is not taking place at mid-trib [listed under #2 below] (or what some refer to as "1260-days [42mos] remaining [till the end]"), as is commonly repeated (but incorrect), but instead takes place WELL-BEFORE that, at the START of the 7 yrs! (2Th2:9a = Dan9:27a[26] "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]").

1) BEGINNING - "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME" [Dan7:7; etc]; 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26]

2) MIDDLE - "who opposeth… exalteth...sitteth" 2Th2:4/Dan9:27b

3) END - "whom the Lord shall...consume... destroy" 2Th2:8b/Dan9:27c


The "he , he, he" of Dan9:27 is the "who, who, who" of 2Th2 (all seven years accounted for in EACH of these two passages); and which "STARTING POINT" [#1] aligns with a number of other passages I've already pointed out (regarding said person).

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA 7 years.....another crammed down the throat error by imminent returners.....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The text (in v.3) is not conveying that "Jesus Himself [or our Rapture (v.1)] will not be present [until...]".

It is saying (instead) "that day [the DOTL (earthly) time period with its unfolding JUDGMENTS (v.2)] will not be present [until...]".

[until ONE THING [NOUN] *FIRST*]



[the DOTL time period ARRIVES at the same moment as the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" of the man of sin... at the START of the 7 yrs... not at its/his MIDDLE... and not at its/his END]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The DOTL" = "Judgments unfolding... THEN followed by Blessing" [i.e. "DARKNESS/DARK/IN THE NIGHT [TIME PERIOD of length (7-yrs aspect OF it)]... THEN followed by FULL LIGHT OF DAY [Jesus' Own Presence (coming) on the earth (the 1000-yr-reign aspect OF it)]"--both aspects, whereas your definition is lacking half of that [not actual 50%, mind you ]

 

[SpoonJuly]

Thank you.

It is difficult to just place the straightforward sentence Paul was conveying when folks have commonly mis-defined his words/phrases, and mis-take grammatical things, and lump distinct items into one-[incorrect]-idea, so that they completely miss what it is that Paul was actually conveying in this text. Wrenching out the incorrect in order to replace it with the correct [definitions, grammar, etc] is a more tedious job than merely stating it simply and directly (because of the firmly-fixed presuppositions that also need to be addressed, before the message he was conveying can be seen clearly). I apologize if that all comes across as complicated. It wouldn't if not for this... I can put another post that just states simply what Paul was saying (the problem enters when the one "reading" defines the words and phrases in an entirely different way than is intended to be understood).

Basically what you are saying is that you are explaining what Paul meant because we do not understand.
What Paul said is very simple and easy to understand.
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump"
The only reason you reject this is because it does destroys your belief that "the church" is "raptured" before the tribulation.
You also reject John's teaching of the first resurrection in Rev. 20.
I understand the order, grammar, verb tense, and word definitions.
I also understand that when Paul said LAST trump, he meant LAST trump.
I also understand that when he said ALL, he meant ALL.
I also understand that when John said FIRSR resurrection, he meant FIRST resurrection.
It is sad that you do not believe God's very simple explaining of what and when these things come to pass through these two great men of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Basically what you are saying is that you are explaining what Paul meant because we do not understand.
What Paul said is very simple and easy to understand.
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump"
The only reason you reject this is because it does destroys your belief that "the church" is "raptured" before the tribulation.
You also reject John's teaching of the first resurrection in Rev. 20.
I understand the order, grammar, verb tense, and word definitions.
I also understand that when Paul said LAST trump, he meant LAST trump.
I also understand that when he said ALL, he meant ALL.
I also understand that when John said FIRSR resurrection, he meant FIRST resurrection.
It is sad that you do not believe God's very simple explaining of what and when these things come to pass through these two great men of God.

It is amazing to me how much must be rejected, denied and or swept under the table to peddle the imminent return.....a GOOD study bro......the siege and fall of JERICHO uses the EXACT same order of the seals, trumpets, and even the same VERBIAGE as 1st Corinthians 15, 1st Thessalonians 4 ---> SOUND of GREAT TRUMP, SHOUT, ASCENSION and VICTORY.........IT even LEAVES out the thunders......

It represents JOSHUA (savior) leading the people to VICTORY after the wilderness of SIN...........check it out......a good OT pic for sure

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Basically what you are saying is that you are explaining what Paul meant because we do not understand.
What Paul said is very simple and easy to understand.
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump"
The only reason you reject this is because it does destroys your belief that "the church" is "raptured" before the tribulation.
You also reject John's teaching of the first resurrection in Rev. 20.

I understand the order, grammar, verb tense, and word definitions.
I also understand that when Paul said LAST trump, he meant LAST trump.
I also understand that when he said ALL, he meant ALL.
I also understand that when John said FIRSR resurrection, he meant FIRST resurrection.
It is sad that you do not believe God's very simple explaining of what and when these things come to pass through these two great men of God.

The Thessalonians did not mistakenly believe that:

--Jesus Himself "IS PRESENT"

--our Rapture itself "IS PRESENT"

--His earthly Kingdom/reign "IS PRESENT"

So what do you think they wrongly believed "IS PRESENT" (according to what Paul is conveying in verse 2)?




[don't answer with Amill-teachings' INCORRECT "definition" of "the Day of the Lord" because they have mis-defined it]