Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

[Locoponydirtman]

Limited atonement is biblical. Only Israel had the temple and atonement in the OT. The rest of the nations perished. And only Israel (believers in Christ) have the atonement in the NT. The rest of the world perishes. So Jesus paid only for their sins. If he paid for everyone's sin, none would perish.

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.2.2.NASB

 

[Bbrdrd]

That simply makes no sense. Augustine is dead and so is Luther .The bible is the witness of God not the witness of men like Luther or Augustine.

Catholicism has nothing to do with sola scriptura. ( Christianity) Its their Nemesis .It makes the law of their fathers called apostolic succession without effect.

The key is as many as .. . revealing a parable in in view. God does not number people or time We walk by faith . As many as he has given power to become born from above they alone can and will come . Not one more written in the lambs book of life from before the foundation of the world or one less

There is no almost persuaded .

Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Not one more or one less.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Not one more or one less.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Not one more or one less.

No power of the name working in the new creature. . no belief no faith

They may be dead but their influence is alive and well. The Bible is not read in a vacuum, we're taught by other men. We often form doctrine without realizing it and read the Bible in light of that doctrine. And one doctrine that has been bearing poisonous fruit since it was conceived of but continues to be taught as authoritative is original sin via Augustine. It changes what we think the problem of sin is, and that changes how we view the gospel. And it can be traced to a single passage in Romans which is being read a certain way that then creates a filter for the whole Bible, and that manner of reading can be traced to how a Greek preposition was rendered in Latin.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There's no confusion to me of the gospel. Scripture fits together great, what doesn't fit is the doctrines put forward by those flying the banner of "reformed". History testifies against them, Scripture testifies against them, logic testifies against them, justice testifies against them. So tell me without appealing to your doctrine, if the atonement was limited only to those who receive it why does 1 John 2:2 say it was enough for all mankind?

The English language, I am told, is very hard for other countries to understand, because we have same words that have many different meanings. Bible readers have the same difficulties with the English translated bible. Many of the same words in the bible with different meanings must be considered in the context and harmony of the other scriptures.

"ALL" scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. The word "world" in 1 John 2:2, if interpreted to include all mankind, will not be in harmony with other scriptures. 1 John 2:2, says that Jesus is the "propitiation" (atonement= restoration to God) for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (of believers). John 14:17, ( Jesus talking to Philip) Yet a little while, and the "world" (of non-believers) seeth me no more; but ye (a believer) see me; because I live, ye shall live also. This same "world" applies to John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

Jesus's sacrifice was effective in taking away the sins of all of those believers that his Father gave him to die for and they will all live in heaven forever. All that the Father giveth me "SHALL" come to me. (John 6:37).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Limited atonement is biblical. Only Israel had the temple and atonement in the OT. The rest of the nations perished. And only Israel (believers in Christ) have the atonement in the NT. The rest of the world perishes. So Jesus paid only for their sins. If he paid for everyone's sin, none would perish.

All Israel is not of Israel. Did you forget about Jacob?

 

[Dave-L]

All Israel is not of Israel. Did you forget about Jacob?

Jesus is Israel in the New Covenant along with believers.

 

[Dave-L]

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 2:2 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.2.2.NASB

Think like a Jew. The whole world = all nations promised to Abraham. It never says each and every person. All nations only. Don't add to God's words. Remember Nadab and Abihu.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus is Israel in the New Covenant along with believers.

Do you take into consideration Gen 32:28? What is your interpretation of it?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus is Israel in the New Covenant along with believers.

Romans 10:1-2-3 - If you think that all of the nation of Israel is saved eternally? Do you not think that if they had a zeal of God that they were already saved eternally? Why would Paul Pray that they might be saved (delivered) if they were already saved?

 

[Bbrdrd]

The English language, I am told, is very hard for other countries to understand, because we have same words that have many different meanings. Bible readers have the same difficulties with the English translated bible. Many of the same words in the bible with different meanings must be considered in the context and harmony of the other scriptures.

"ALL" scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. The word "world" in 1 John 2:2, if interpreted to include all mankind, will not be in harmony with other scriptures. 1 John 2:2, says that Jesus is the "propitiation" (atonement= restoration to God) for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world (of believers). John 14:17, ( Jesus talking to Philip) Yet a little while, and the "world" (of non-believers) seeth me no more; but ye (a believer) see me; because I live, ye shall live also. This same "world" applies to John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19.

Jesus's sacrifice was effective in taking away the sins of all of those believers that his Father gave him to die for and they will all live in heaven forever. All that the Father giveth me "SHALL" come to me. (John 6:37).

Your explanation makes no sense given the context of 1 John 2:2 in itself. 1 John 2:2, on its own, says "not only for our sins" our being those who believe. The contrast in the verse is to say that the atonement is sufficient for more than simply those who come to believe, and to limit it to "the world of believers" renders the sentiment meaningless. "Not only for our(believers) sins, but the sins of the whole world(of believers)" is nonsensical. There is no reason to bring John 14:17 into the matter, and the only reason you do so is to maintain your already established doctrine.

 

[Dave-L]

Romans 10:1-2-3 - If you think that all of the nation of Israel is saved eternally? Do you not think that if they had a zeal of God that they were already saved eternally? Why would Paul Pray that they might be saved (delivered) if they were already saved?

OT Israel was mostly wicked unbelievers and lost. Jesus removed them in the New Covenant. Since then, Israel is believers only. Christ's body.

 

[Dave-L]

Do you take into consideration Gen 32:28? What is your interpretation of it?

Who are the people called by my name, Israel? Jacob was one. Jesus is Israel and believers are called by his name too.

 

[garee]

Who are the people called by my name, Israel? Jacob was one. Jesus is Israel and believers are called by his name too.

Thanks god way of saying it.

One of the tools of the evil one . Men take away the meaning assigned to a word through a oral tradition and create ones own foundation. I will. Be like the most High. The me, myself and I. The deceitful trinity or heart who says there is no God in his heart. No room .Therefore making the word of God without effect rendering it as it is written faithless as a source.

Jesus did the will of our father who worked in Him to both will and do the good pleasure of God yet without sin. . our perfect example against the I wills.

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your explanation makes no sense given the context of 1 John 2:2 in itself. 1 John 2:2, on its own, says "not only for our sins" our being those who believe. The contrast in the verse is to say that the atonement is sufficient for more than simply those who come to believe, and to limit it to "the world of believers" renders the sentiment meaningless. "Not only for our(believers) sins, but the sins of the whole world(of believers)" is nonsensical. There is no reason to bring John 14:17 into the matter, and the only reason you do so is to maintain your already established doctrine.

I attempt to explain all scriptures, because I believe that scripture proves scripture if they all harmonize. I do not understand all scriptures, but I am confident that they should all harmonize. I believe that the scriptures overwhelmingly support limited atonement, and eternal deliverance by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.(Eph 2:8-9) They affirm that God elected a people before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, and God predetermined that they would be adopted as his children by the payment of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

God's elect children are those, in John 6:37, that he says SHALL come to him, and that he would not lose any of them in verse 39. I understand that those that come to him are those that he gave the new birth to in Eph 2, while they were still spiritually dead, as explained in 1 Cor 2:14. Christ died for the world of believers (his elect) and the only ones that SHALL come to him, and they were the only ones that Jesus's Father gave him to die for. Scripture will prove scripture, if you use them in harmony with each other, and not ignore any of them.

The vast majority of society in Jesus's days on earth thought his doctrine was crazy, and it remains the same in this day and time. This is prophecy.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Who are the people called by my name, Israel? Jacob was one. Jesus is Israel and believers are called by his name too.

Jesus is the Savour of people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:9. These are all included in Jacob/Israel. not the nation of Israel.

 

[Dave-L]

Jesus is the Savour of people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:9. These are all included in Jacob/Israel. not the nation of Israel.

Jesus and the Church are the nation of Israel.
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[notuptome]

Jesus and the Church are the nation of Israel.
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV 1900)

True scripture but a false conclusion on your part.

Jesus is God. Church is His bride. Israel remains Israel and apostate for now. Because of Israel's hardness of heart they have been passed by and the blessing designed for them have been given to the Gentiles. One day Israel will be restored and the Gentiles who are Christ's will rejoice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dave-L]

True scripture but a false conclusion on your part.

Jesus is God. Church is His bride. Israel remains Israel and apostate for now. Because of Israel's hardness of heart they have been passed by and the blessing designed for them have been given to the Gentiles. One day Israel will be restored and the Gentiles who are Christ's will rejoice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Church is Israel; Comparison



Called;

1. Saints (Num. 16:3: Deut. 33:3)

2. Elect (Deut. 7:6, 7; 14:2)

3. Beloved (Deut. 7:7; 4:37)

4. Called (Isa. 41:9; 43:1)

5. Church (Ps. 89:5; Mic. 2:5 (LXX) Act. 7:38; Heb. 2:12)

6. Flock (Ezek. 34; Ps. 77:20)

7. Holy Nation (Exod. 19:5, 6)

8. Kingdom of Priests (Exod.19:5, 6)

9. Peculiar Treasure (Exod. 19:5, 6)

10. God's People (Hos. 1:9, 10)

11. Holy People (Deut. 7:6)

12. People of Inheritance (Deut.4:20)

13. God's Tabernacle in Israel (Lev.26:11)

14. God walks among them (Lev. 26:12)

15. Twelve Patriarchs

16. Christ married to them (Isa.54:5; Jer.3:14; Hos.2:19; Jer.6:2; 31:32)



Also Called in the NT;



1. Saints (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)

2. Elect (Col. 3:12; Titus 1:1)

3. Beloved (Col.3:12; 1 Thess 1:4)

4. Called (Rom. 1:6, 7; lCor.l:2)

5. Church (Eph. 1:1; Acts 20:28)

6. Flock (Luke 12:32; 1 Pet. 5:2)

7. Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9)

8. Kingdom of Priests (1 Pet. 2:9)

9. Peculiar Treasure (1 Pet. 2:9)

10. God's People (1 Pet. 2:10)

11. Holy People (1 Pet. 1:15, 16)

12. People of Inheritance (Eph. 1:18)

13. God's Tabernacle in Church (John 1:14)

14. God walks among them (2 Cor.6:16-18)

15. Twelve Apostles

16. Christ married to them (Eph.5:22, 23; 2Cor.11:2)



The OT Church remained Israel from whom God broke off the unbelievers, and added believing gentiles into their place. Any who accept Christ from among the broken off will be re-attached to Israel.

 

[notuptome]

The Church is Israel; Comparison



Called;

1. Saints (Num. 16:3: Deut. 33:3)

2. Elect (Deut. 7:6, 7; 14:2)

3. Beloved (Deut. 7:7; 4:37)

4. Called (Isa. 41:9; 43:1)

5. Church (Ps. 89:5; Mic. 2:5 (LXX) Act. 7:38; Heb. 2:12)

6. Flock (Ezek. 34; Ps. 77:20)

7. Holy Nation (Exod. 19:5, 6)

8. Kingdom of Priests (Exod.19:5, 6)

9. Peculiar Treasure (Exod. 19:5, 6)

10. God's People (Hos. 1:9, 10)

11. Holy People (Deut. 7:6)

12. People of Inheritance (Deut.4:20)

13. God's Tabernacle in Israel (Lev.26:11)

14. God walks among them (Lev. 26:12)

15. Twelve Patriarchs

16. Christ married to them (Isa.54:5; Jer.3:14; Hos.2:19; Jer.6:2; 31:32)



Also Called in the NT;



1. Saints (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)

2. Elect (Col. 3:12; Titus 1:1)

3. Beloved (Col.3:12; 1 Thess 1:4)

4. Called (Rom. 1:6, 7; lCor.l:2)

5. Church (Eph. 1:1; Acts 20:28)

6. Flock (Luke 12:32; 1 Pet. 5:2)

7. Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9)

8. Kingdom of Priests (1 Pet. 2:9)

9. Peculiar Treasure (1 Pet. 2:9)

10. God's People (1 Pet. 2:10)

11. Holy People (1 Pet. 1:15, 16)

12. People of Inheritance (Eph. 1:18)

13. God's Tabernacle in Church (John 1:14)

14. God walks among them (2 Cor.6:16-18)

15. Twelve Apostles

16. Christ married to them (Eph.5:22, 23; 2Cor.11:2)



The OT Church remained Israel from whom God broke off the unbelievers, and added believing gentiles into their place. Any who accept Christ from among the broken off will be re-attached to Israel.

My oh my. Your lack of knowledge is shocking.

The church is graft into the Vine. The Vine is not Israel but God. The church is spotless and incorruptible through the blood of the Savior. Israel remains in the world and is waiting redemption and restoration.

It is sad to see you regurgitating this nonsense.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dave-L]

My oh my. Your lack of knowledge is shocking.

The church is graft into the Vine. The Vine is not Israel but God. The church is spotless and incorruptible through the blood of the Savior. Israel remains in the world and is waiting redemption and restoration.

It is sad to see you regurgitating this nonsense.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus is Israel in the NT according to Paul and Matthew. The broken off Jews are now gentiles since Christ abolished circumcision.

 

[notuptome]

Jesus is Israel in the NT according to Paul and Matthew. The broken off Jews are now gentiles since Christ abolished circumcision.

So wrong and so mind numbingly wrong it is hard to believe anyone with a reasonable intellect would profess such. Jesus came to seek and save lost souls. He came first to Israel and they rejected Him.

Christ did not abolish circumcision. Christ fulfilled circumcision. The law was fulfilled by Christ not abolished byHim.

For the cause of Christ
Roger