Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?
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You might try this first..
This is the Heidelberg Catechism.
Catechisms are lists of questions, mostly for young people, which explain key teachings of the Bible.
This one provides Scriptural references.
It is a Reformed catechism, so it is likely that baby baptism will be mentioned, but you can avoid that point.
Some people here are suspicious about catechisms but I find them useful. My argument would be that they are not typically training their children up in the teaching of the LORD, and that catechisms are an excellent way to do this.
Anyways see this link:
https://www.crcna.org/sites/default/files/HeidelbergCatechism.pdf
File is attached too.
So Triune God does not have a body, so Jesus is only part of God that encloses with the flesh?
For me, a person with two natures can both deity and human but can be explained, but it is a mystery in spite of being normal, not schizophrenic.
I want to clarify, how many minds do have a Triune God? And how many wills do have a Triune God?
For me, a person with two natures can both deity and human but can be explained, but it is a mystery in spite of being normal, not schizophrenic.
I want to clarify, how many minds do have a Triune God? And how many wills do have a Triune God?
The Triune God doesn't have a body.
Here's the reasoning on this...God is immutable. That means he has never changed. He did not change during the Incarnation either.
However, a new nature was added to the Second Person of the Triune God. He became fully man. This new nature did not change the Triune God; it was an additional nature.
There are three Persons within the Triune God, therefore there are three minds and wills. However, these minds and wills are unified in terms of purpose and will. They are not one mind, but they are unified in terms of purpose and will.
The three Persons have distinct roles as well, but they work in harmony. As an example, the Father elects individuals, the Son atones for their sins on the Cross, and the Holy Spirit applies salvation to individuals in time. They work in perfect unity.
I am also attaching Keach's Catechism. This is another useful tool. It is a Baptist catechism.
http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/keachs-catechism-of-1677.pdf
Here's the reasoning on this...God is immutable. That means he has never changed. He did not change during the Incarnation either.
However, a new nature was added to the Second Person of the Triune God. He became fully man. This new nature did not change the Triune God; it was an additional nature.
There are three Persons within the Triune God, therefore there are three minds and wills. However, these minds and wills are unified in terms of purpose and will. They are not one mind, but they are unified in terms of purpose and will.
The three Persons have distinct roles as well, but they work in harmony. As an example, the Father elects individuals, the Son atones for their sins on the Cross, and the Holy Spirit applies salvation to individuals in time. They work in perfect unity.
I am also attaching Keach's Catechism. This is another useful tool. It is a Baptist catechism.
http://baptiststudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/keachs-catechism-of-1677.pdf
This is the Westminster Larger Catechism. It is a Presbyterian catechism, so there would be some points of difference with me.
But, it is a good reference anyways, and it has Scripture proofs.
The big point of disagreement would be infant baptism, again.
https://opc.org/documents/LCLayout.pdf
But, it is a good reference anyways, and it has Scripture proofs.
The big point of disagreement would be infant baptism, again.
https://opc.org/documents/LCLayout.pdf
Here is the Athanasius creed which addresses some of the topics you mentioned.
Be aware that I do not think that a person loses their salvation if they don't understand teachings about the Trinity..it is only if they have been properly instructed and reject it.
As an example, I was part of a cult that denied the Trinity yet I was saved.
Eventually God showed me the error of their teaching, though.
Cults almost invariably deny the Trinity and are in opposition to Christians, usually believing many false things. Their error isn't relegated to the Trinity alone, and as you question an antiTrinitarian you will find this to be true.
For instance, the cult that I belonged to denied the Trinity, the bodily resurrection, biblical regeneration and claimed that they were going to become God in the same sense as the Father and Son. All these false teachings were connected. When one doctrine is rejected, other doctrines must be rejected in order to maintain some kind of coherent belief system. By the time that process runs the course, you have a totally false system that bears little resemblance to biblical Christianity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Athanasian Creed
The Athanasian Creed is named for Athansius, a fourth-century bishop and prominent defender of Trinitarianism. The creed, which has Latin origins, declares key beliefs about the Trinity, specifically, the equal nature of the three persons. It is one of three creeds accepted by the Reformed Church in America.
Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.
Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.
For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.
But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.
Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.
The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.
Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.
Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.
Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.
And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.
Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.
It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.
For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.
He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother -- existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.
Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.
He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.
He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.
For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.
He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith.
One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.
Be aware that I do not think that a person loses their salvation if they don't understand teachings about the Trinity..it is only if they have been properly instructed and reject it.
As an example, I was part of a cult that denied the Trinity yet I was saved.
Eventually God showed me the error of their teaching, though.
Cults almost invariably deny the Trinity and are in opposition to Christians, usually believing many false things. Their error isn't relegated to the Trinity alone, and as you question an antiTrinitarian you will find this to be true.
For instance, the cult that I belonged to denied the Trinity, the bodily resurrection, biblical regeneration and claimed that they were going to become God in the same sense as the Father and Son. All these false teachings were connected. When one doctrine is rejected, other doctrines must be rejected in order to maintain some kind of coherent belief system. By the time that process runs the course, you have a totally false system that bears little resemblance to biblical Christianity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Athanasian Creed
The Athanasian Creed is named for Athansius, a fourth-century bishop and prominent defender of Trinitarianism. The creed, which has Latin origins, declares key beliefs about the Trinity, specifically, the equal nature of the three persons. It is one of three creeds accepted by the Reformed Church in America.
Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.
Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.
For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.
But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.
Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.
The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.
Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.
Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.
Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.
And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.
Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.
It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.
For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.
He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother -- existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.
Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.
He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.
He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.
For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.
He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith.
One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.
God is a multi-personal being...that means three persons occupy one being.
The word "being" does not mean "person". It can mean that in the human realm, but not in terms of God.
"Being" means essence or the composition of something.
"Being" has to do with "what".
"Person" has to do with "who".
For instance, what am I in terms of composition? I am a body.
What am I in terms of person? I am me.
If my leg is cut off in an accident, that doesn't affect me, in terms of personhood, because I am still me.
It does affect me in terms of my physical composition because part of me is missing.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share the same essence, or being, which is spirit.
Essence (being) = "what"
Person = "who"
This is a difficult concept to grasp because God is a multi-personal being, and we are not.
But, it is the easiest way to understand this.
The word "being" does not mean "person". It can mean that in the human realm, but not in terms of God.
"Being" means essence or the composition of something.
"Being" has to do with "what".
"Person" has to do with "who".
For instance, what am I in terms of composition? I am a body.
What am I in terms of person? I am me.
If my leg is cut off in an accident, that doesn't affect me, in terms of personhood, because I am still me.
It does affect me in terms of my physical composition because part of me is missing.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit share the same essence, or being, which is spirit.
Essence (being) = "what"
Person = "who"
This is a difficult concept to grasp because God is a multi-personal being, and we are not.
But, it is the easiest way to understand this.
UnitedWithChrist what my analyzation regarding this above my quote passage, the distinction of the Son and the Father during the Incarnation, the Son is subordinate while the Father is superior as God. So we can see that there is no co-equal existence of both because the one is subordinate human and the other one superior deity Spirit. The one did not know and refused the cup calvary but later followed the will of the Father and while the other one knows everything and his will be followed. How's that UnitedWithChrist?
Right..a Person has a mind and a will, and there are three Persons yet one Being (Essence).
We are not accustomed to using the word "being" like this.
Even a rock has a being, even though it has no personality. A rock's being is what a rock is made of. An individual rock is made of a lump of quartz, for example.
I am not implying God is "made of" anything, though...he is Spirit, and that is his being. He is not a created thing.
We are not accustomed to using the word "being" like this.
Even a rock has a being, even though it has no personality. A rock's being is what a rock is made of. An individual rock is made of a lump of quartz, for example.
I am not implying God is "made of" anything, though...he is Spirit, and that is his being. He is not a created thing.
The Son had two different natures.
He was fully God and fully man. These two natures are "connected" via the hypostatic union.
As God, the Son was omniscient, but as man, he was not.
He was completely dependent upon the Father.
This is a rough analogy, but suppose I moved to another country and wanted to learn what it is like to be a person from this country. Suppose I could turn off my ability to understand my native language, and totally used the language of this country.
This would be a similar concept. I am not saying that Jesus never accessed his divine nature, but in essence, the idea is that he did not access the divine nature. The Father worked through Him, and he relied on the Father.
Jesus did not know the day of his return, although the Father did. This is because Jesus voluntarily limited himself during the Incarnation.
There are individuals who believe that he totally emptied himself of the divine nature, and was only a man during the Incarnation. This view is called the "kenotic Jesus". I do not hold this view. I don't believe that he totally emptied himself, but that he voluntarily limited himself with regards to his divine power.
Here's a verse the kenotic Jesus people would use:
Philippians 2:5-8 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(ESV Strong's)
I do not think that they are correct on this, though. I believe he limited himself in terms of his divine nature. And this is the more orthodox view within evangelical Christianity.
Regarding my position, I would point to this verse:
John 5:17-18 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” 18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (ESV Strong's)
Jesus was claiming that he and the Father work continually on the Sabbath. What was he talking about? The Jews knew that God did not rest on the Sabbath, because they attributed the maintenance of the creation to God, including births and deaths. Embedded within Jesus' remark was that both he and the Father are continually working, and have always been working, all the time. This points to Jesus' identity as YHVH, the Triune God.
The Jews knew what he was saying. In essence, he was claiming to be the Triune God. That is why they were enraged.
I see other hints that Jesus did not become "only a man" as the kenotic Jesus claim indicates, but that he retained a dual nature from the Incarnation up to now. He is the unique God-man.
He was fully God and fully man. These two natures are "connected" via the hypostatic union.
As God, the Son was omniscient, but as man, he was not.
He was completely dependent upon the Father.
This is a rough analogy, but suppose I moved to another country and wanted to learn what it is like to be a person from this country. Suppose I could turn off my ability to understand my native language, and totally used the language of this country.
This would be a similar concept. I am not saying that Jesus never accessed his divine nature, but in essence, the idea is that he did not access the divine nature. The Father worked through Him, and he relied on the Father.
Jesus did not know the day of his return, although the Father did. This is because Jesus voluntarily limited himself during the Incarnation.
There are individuals who believe that he totally emptied himself of the divine nature, and was only a man during the Incarnation. This view is called the "kenotic Jesus". I do not hold this view. I don't believe that he totally emptied himself, but that he voluntarily limited himself with regards to his divine power.
Here's a verse the kenotic Jesus people would use:
Philippians 2:5-8 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(ESV Strong's)
I do not think that they are correct on this, though. I believe he limited himself in terms of his divine nature. And this is the more orthodox view within evangelical Christianity.
Regarding my position, I would point to this verse:
John 5:17-18 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” 18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (ESV Strong's)
Jesus was claiming that he and the Father work continually on the Sabbath. What was he talking about? The Jews knew that God did not rest on the Sabbath, because they attributed the maintenance of the creation to God, including births and deaths. Embedded within Jesus' remark was that both he and the Father are continually working, and have always been working, all the time. This points to Jesus' identity as YHVH, the Triune God.
The Jews knew what he was saying. In essence, he was claiming to be the Triune God. That is why they were enraged.
I see other hints that Jesus did not become "only a man" as the kenotic Jesus claim indicates, but that he retained a dual nature from the Incarnation up to now. He is the unique God-man.