Discussion on the End Times

[GraceAndTruth]

I followed the false teachings in dispensationalism for 20 years, and I was challenged just as you are, I was unable to give a response when questioned just as you.

You have clearly been shown the false claims found in the (Historicist) teachings.

1.) The late date of Revelation, with Iranaeus clearly stating the (Vison) was seen in the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD, that renders a pre 70AD claim false.

2.) You have been shown in Matthew Chapter 24:21 it's (Impossible) to have a 66-70AD Great Tribulation, with (Historicism) falsely teaching that the (Second Coming) seen in Matthew 24:29-30 has been 1950+ years and waiting, with the words below destroying this false teaching.

(Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days)

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

3.) You Falsely believe and teach that Daniel's Abomination Of Desolation as seen in Matthew 24:15 took place in 167BC with Antiochus Epiphanies sacrificing a pig on the temple altar?

This claim is 100% incorrect, as Matthew writes 200+ years (After) in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See) a future event from his writing unfulfilled.

Matthew 24:15KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"Calvinism" has never been in the camp of dispensationalism.
Once again you fill the page with your own version....REPEATEDLY. I reject your view IN FULL. Give it a rest.

 

[Ogom]

""The 'mark' is figurative....a spiritual mark. The mark is for the unsaved man just as the 'seal' is for God's people.""

Not biblical
It says "right hand/forehead "
It says those refusing die.
It says those with it get sores as it festers in their skin.
It says with out it they can not shop or sell.

There is zero there to make it spiritual.

But the clincher is.....it NEVER HAPPENED HISTORICALLY.

the Bible is ALL about spiritual matters.

John 4:24

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[Truth7t7]

"Calvinism" has never been in the camp of dispensationalism.
Once again you fill the page with your own version....REPEATEDLY. I reject your view IN FULL. Give it a rest.

We will disagree, Historicism Is A False Teaching.

Daniel's abomination in Matthew 24:15 didn't take place in 167BC with Antiochus Epiphanies sacrificing a pigeon the temple alter in Jerusalem, Matthew didn't write 200+ years later, warning the church of an event that your historicism falsely claims was fulfilled in 167BC

Hey Church I'm Writing A Warning That Was Fulfilled 200+ years ago?

The great tribulation didnt take place. in 66-70AD in Jerusalems destruction,as Jesus Christ returns immediately after this tribulation,that Historicism teaches is a (Future Event)

Pretty hard to interpret (Immediately After) as 1950+ years and waiting, a no brainer

The book of of Revelation was written post 70AD,in the reign of Emperor Domitian 81-96AD

We Will Disagree

 

[Dino246]

Historicism Is A False Teaching.

Fallacy: non sequitur.

That comment doesn't relate in any way to GnT's post.

As for your position on the date of Revelation, you take as decisive gospel truth one single comment from a man who also claimed that Jesus was about 50 when He was crucified.

So much for "refuting". You're standing on quicksand.

 

[Truth7t7]

Fallacy: non sequitur.

That comment doesn't relate in any way to GnT's post.

As for your position on the date of Revelation, you take as decisive gospel truth one single comment from a man who also claimed that Jesus was about 50 when He was crucified.

So much for "refuting". You're standing on quicksand.

ChristianCourier

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence

The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

​

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).​

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).​

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

 

[Dino246]

ChristianCourier

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence

The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

​

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).​

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).​

To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).

Your external evidence is opinion upon opinion, and your internal evidence is fallacy upon fallacy. I suggest you do some reading on "circular reasoning" and do your best to avoid it.

 

[Absolutely]

the Bible is ALL about spiritual matters.

John 4:24

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

So Jesus never got into a boat.
It was a spiritual matter?

The bible has both literal and spiritual dynamics all through it.

Example is Elijah's mantle.

 

[Absolutely]

like I said
where in history are the flying scorpions?

the mark?

I'll wait

Still waiting

 

[GraceAndTruth]

The problem with your claim of the great tribulation already taking place in 66-70 ad is that, there is zero fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which must take place before the Lord can return to the earth to end the age. Below is what the Lord inserts at the pouring out of the sixth bowl judgment:

Your post shortened here for space.


MY responses to your statements in bold:

The problem with your claim of the great tribulation already taking place in 66-70 ad is that, there is zero fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which must take place before the Lord can return to the earth to end the age. Below is what the Lord inserts at the pouring out of the sixth bowl judgment:

Bowl, Seals and Trumpets are history……except the last trump when Christ comes for His bride. Flavius Josephus has some interesting information and first hand experience. He is not alone. I will post that if you want it, there were reports of major damage and loss of life from natural disasters. The fall-out of war covers the meaning of bowls and seals as well.

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed" This is poorly worded….must be a paraphrase and not a translation. No good for study.Not only poorly worded, its not even close. That Jesus calls it coming like a thief in the night means that He comes UNEXPECTEDLY. Like a thief does not mean AS a thief. Since we are raised with new bodies, clothing may be optional.

In Matthew 24 Jesus also gave the readers proof of how to tell the false Messiah's that people would claim are out in the desert or in a secret room when He said, "Just as the lightning that shines in the east can be seen in the west, so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be." We know from Matt.24:30 that the people of the earth will see the Lord arriving on the clouds with power and great glory. This is how the people of the earth will know the difference between the false Messiah's and the the true Messiah. All that said, to claim that the Lord came and ended the age in 70 AD would go directly against Jesus warning about false Messiah's.
That is not my claim.

have another post for your questions

 

[GraceAndTruth]

In addition, John was banished to the island of Patmos during the reign of Domian who ruled from 81 to 96 AD, which would put the writing of Revelation taking place within those dates and which would make the events of Revelation future events, not past events.

John was imprisoned during Nero’s reign and released by Galba. It was the custom for political prisoners to be released upon the death of a Caesar

time of silence
Jesus comes for His beloved at the LAST trump, (of those 7 trumps)
The earth is destoyed immediately after by intense heat.

Your identifying the "half an hour of silence" as representing when Jesus comes for church, is based on pure conjecture. For there is nothing that ties that half hour of silence to the event of Jesus gathering His church.

The silence is immediately before the rapture. Absolutely NOT ONE PERSON knows for certain just what that ‘silence’ means. What we do know is that the 7 trumpets signal the end is near and the trumpets follow one another quickly, and at the LAST trump, Christ comes for His bride then earth is destroyed with intense heat. I think the word ‘silence’ is used by John to convey the idea that something awesome is comng.

Also, the reference to the "Last Trump" which Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:52 regarding the gathering of the church, has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments. The "last trumpet" is a blessing for those in Christ who are alive at the time when He gathers His church, where the seven trumpets are part of God's wrath. What you are doing is erroneously interpreting the "Last trumpet" in I Corinthians 15:52 and linking it to the angel with the seventh trumpet of those trumpet judgments.

The last trump is the last of the 7 trumps.

I is obvious that you have been reading the false teachings men on this subject, for we have seen these teaching over and over again which basically comes from Amillennialists and mostly from full Preterists.

Your reading material would benefit from a book burning; starting with that paraphrased useless bible you use.

Antiochus, Horn, Perdtion, Beast, Antichrist.....and so on.
Antiochus Epiphanes Profaned the Temple, December 16, 156 BC

You are correct in that Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 156 BC. However, this cannot be referring to the abomination of desolation, because Jesus spoke of it as a future event, not past. What Antiochus did is a shadow of what the coming antichrist is going to do when he has that image set up in the future temple.

Not happening.

Daniel also used the term ‘abomination of desolation re: Antiochus. The abomination of desolation is an army The army Jesus refers to is the army of Rome (the siege of Jerusalem in 66-70AD)

WHEN the Olivet Discourse is harmonized between the 3 gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke) that contain it, Luke says plainly that the A of D is an army. Let the bible interpret the bible.

Horn, you mean the 10 horns? Those represent the kingdoms under the authority of Rome, conquered lands.
Perdition – hell
Beast –figurative for both a nation and a person.

 

[Keras]

The silence is immediately before the rapture. Absolutely NOT ONE PERSON knows for certain just what that ‘silence’ means. What we do know is that the 7 trumpets signal the end is near and the trumpets follow one another quickly, and at the LAST trump, Christ comes for His bride then earth is destroyed with intense heat. I think the word ‘silence’ is used by John to convey the idea that something awesome is comng.

Firstly, there is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church. That idea is false and can never happen.

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is for the time period from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns. It will be a half hour in heaven, which is equal to about 20 earth years, using the formula of 1 day in heaven being the same elapsed time as 1000 earth years. 2 witnesses give it: Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.
1/48th of a heavenly day and 1/48th of 1000 years. Simple, logical and fits with what must happen between those two events.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Firstly, there is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church. That idea is false and can never happen.

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is for the time period from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns. It will be a half hour in heaven, which is equal to about 20 earth years, using the formula of 1 day in heaven being the same elapsed time as 1000 earth years. 2 witnesses give it: Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.
1/48th of a heavenly day and 1/48th of 1000 years. Simple, logical and fits with what must happen between those two events.

rapture means to be caught up. The word rapture is from the Latin for 'raptura' found in 2 thess 4:17: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. American ...

 

[Absolutely]

Firstly, there is no 'rapture to heaven' for the Church. That idea is false and can never happen.

The Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, is for the time period from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns. It will be a half hour in heaven, which is equal to about 20 earth years, using the formula of 1 day in heaven being the same elapsed time as 1000 earth years. 2 witnesses give it: Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8.
1/48th of a heavenly day and 1/48th of 1000 years. Simple, logical and fits with what must happen between those two events.

There are several rapture or catching ups in the bible.
1 thes 4 is the church rapture as is mat 25 the 10 virgins and mat 24 the one taken/left.

Iow read those verses.
Don't leave out the 2 escape verses either.
Study the bride/groom dimension.
Your starting place is off.
Re evaluate.

 

[Absolutely]

In addition, John was banished to the island of Patmos during the reign of Domian who ruled from 81 to 96 AD, which would put the writing of Revelation taking place within those dates and which would make the events of Revelation future events, not past events.

John was imprisoned during Nero’s reign and released by Galba. It was the custom for political prisoners to be released upon the death of a Caesar

time of silence
Jesus comes for His beloved at the LAST trump, (of those 7 trumps)
The earth is destoyed immediately after by intense heat.

Your identifying the "half an hour of silence" as representing when Jesus comes for church, is based on pure conjecture. For there is nothing that ties that half hour of silence to the event of Jesus gathering His church.

The silence is immediately before the rapture. Absolutely NOT ONE PERSON knows for certain just what that ‘silence’ means. What we do know is that the 7 trumpets signal the end is near and the trumpets follow one another quickly, and at the LAST trump, Christ comes for His bride then earth is destroyed with intense heat. I think the word ‘silence’ is used by John to convey the idea that something awesome is comng.

Also, the reference to the "Last Trump" which Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15:52 regarding the gathering of the church, has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments. The "last trumpet" is a blessing for those in Christ who are alive at the time when He gathers His church, where the seven trumpets are part of God's wrath. What you are doing is erroneously interpreting the "Last trumpet" in I Corinthians 15:52 and linking it to the angel with the seventh trumpet of those trumpet judgments.

The last trump is the last of the 7 trumps.

I is obvious that you have been reading the false teachings men on this subject, for we have seen these teaching over and over again which basically comes from Amillennialists and mostly from full Preterists.

Your reading material would benefit from a book burning; starting with that paraphrased useless bible you use.

Antiochus, Horn, Perdtion, Beast, Antichrist.....and so on.
Antiochus Epiphanes Profaned the Temple, December 16, 156 BC

You are correct in that Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 156 BC. However, this cannot be referring to the abomination of desolation, because Jesus spoke of it as a future event, not past. What Antiochus did is a shadow of what the coming antichrist is going to do when he has that image set up in the future temple.

Not happening.

Daniel also used the term ‘abomination of desolation re: Antiochus. The abomination of desolation is an army The army Jesus refers to is the army of Rome (the siege of Jerusalem in 66-70AD)

WHEN the Olivet Discourse is harmonized between the 3 gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke) that contain it, Luke says plainly that the A of D is an army. Let the bible interpret the bible.

Horn, you mean the 10 horns? Those represent the kingdoms under the authority of Rome, conquered lands.
Perdition – hell
Beast –figurative for both a nation and a person.

""time of silence
Jesus comes for His beloved at the LAST trump, (of those 7 trumps)
The earth is destoyed immediately after by intense heat. ""
there are more judgements after the seventh trump.

so you must believe in a mid trib /mid wrath rapture.

 

[Absolutely]

Still waiting

....waiting to see where the world experienced the flying scorpions and the mark.

Hello????

 

[GraceAndTruth]

""time of silence
Jesus comes for His beloved at the LAST trump, (of those 7 trumps)
The earth is destoyed immediately after by intense heat. ""
there are more judgements after the seventh trump.

so you must believe in a mid trib /mid wrath rapture.

No, I am convinced the "trib" was fulfilled during the Jewish wars of 66-73AD
I may have made a mistake in my post.........".there are more judgements after the seventh trump"
not sure what question I was answering.....but I may have mis-spoke

 

[Yahshua]

....waiting to see where the world experienced the flying scorpions and the mark.

Hello????

At the beginning of the book of Revelation it is said that the prophecy was "signified"...it was sign-ified; sent as signs and symbols, just like the visions of Daniel were.

For example, Daniel saw a flying lion, a four-headed leopard with wings, a monstrous beast with iron teeth...later these are explained to be the kingdoms of man.

History then confirms the imagery of the kingdoms used in Daniel's vision, such as the banner of Babylon being a literal lion with wings.

The living God doesn't change. He delivered the book of Revelation the same way.

 

[Yahshua]

I have an end times prediction...

I predict that when the Son of Man comes most of the secular world will believe He's a hostile invading alien, while most of the Christian world will believe He's the Antichrist.

 

[Absolutely]

At the beginning of the book of Revelation it is said that the prophecy was "signified"...it was sign-ified; sent as signs and symbols, just like the visions of Daniel were.

For example, Daniel saw a flying lion, a four-headed leopard with wings, a monstrous beast with iron teeth...later these are explained to be the kingdoms of man.

History then confirms the imagery of the kingdoms used in Daniel's vision, such as the banner of Babylon being a literal lion with wings.

The living God doesn't change. He delivered the book of Revelation the same way.

It is a prophecy.
It is shown .
It is future.
Of course things are not happening in real time.
Did the prophecies about Jesus come to pass "spiritually"?.
He didn't need to physically come?

The book of revelation is framed in "things that will come shortly"
Things to come.

Historicist just randomly ascribe "fulfillments" as needed.

 

[Absolutely]

I have an end times prediction...

I predict that when the Son of Man comes most of the secular world will believe He's a hostile invading alien, while most of the Christian world will believe He's the Antichrist.

He comes pretrib
He comes midtown (in rev 14)
He comes postrib on a white horse.
Concentrate on the horse and lack thereof.
2 times with out it.
1 time with it.

Which of those 3 events are you referring??