If a Sabbath is forced, Will you keep Sunday holy?

[bud62]

You are right, I should not try to talk you into not slandering other Christians. It always upsets me because you are so knowledgeable, have so much to offer. I am to accept you and take the good of your posts, and there is much good in them.

Where does scripture say we are not subject to "old covenant law"? I think it is clear that we are not to burden Christians with a demand they go to church on a certain day, but I don't see any scripture telling us that if law is in the old testament under the old covenant, we are not to consider it a law of the Lord.

In this discussion in Acts of what laws gentiles were and were not subject to, it is clear that we are not to subject anyone to something like a day we HAVE to go to church. That goes for Saturday or Sunday. But in the Act's discussion, they speak of going to synagogue to hear about Moses, and all the laws they were to obey were ones that allowed them to get past the Pharisees so they could go hear about Moses.

I do not know what you are talking about

 

[Dino246]

THE BIBLE interprets it's self. the only way to interpret the BIBLE, is to FIND other SCRIPTURES that GO WITH IT,Other then that, we are most likely going to be miss lead by the by Satan,
JER 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? Our filling will deceive us

What you describe is definitely not "the only way to the interpret the Bible". It's one way, but in fact, interpretation happens every time you read, before you put any effort into studying. The words on the page are filtered through your understanding of vocabulary, syntax, grammar, and sentence structure.

If you reading the Bible, and you encounter a word unfamiliar to you, the first place you should look to determine the meaning is in the Bible: first in the immediate context, then the rest of the book, the author's other works, if any, and other contemporary writings within Scripture, and of course, all the rest of Scripture. You may need to consider the genre and the historical, cultural, and spiritual contexts, or even the grammatical structure of the word in the original language.

However, unless you are learning the language from the start, you come to Scripture with some idea of what words mean, even before you read a word of Scripture. That colours how you understand the text. Take for example the word, "bottle". If you think of a glass or plastic tube that is sealed at one end, you are correct for a 20th-21st century term, but you are incorrect for a biblical-era term. In the Bible, where the word, "bottle" is used, it means the skin of an animal that has been treated in a particular way and carefully sewn into a container such that it holds liquid. Come with the wrong understanding of the word, and you may end up with the wrong understanding of the passage. If you primarily use an older translation, you are more prone to this kind of error.

Further, there are words that only appear once in Scripture. You can't compare the instance with others because there simply aren't any others. You have to look outside of Scripture to determine what the words mean. The Holy Spirit can enlighten you, but He isn't always going to absolve you of the hard work of investigation and study.

Don't give too much credit to the enemy; we deceive ourselves and allow ourselves to be deceived by others far more commonly. Just know that biblical interpretation is nowhere near as simple as you think.

 

[Dino246]

The only thing is with that, is that THE U.S.A. is the second beast in Revelation, and we are going to start the worship'
And it will BE Church AND STATE together that creates the IMAGE to the Beast. It was Church And state that killed the saints in the dark days, so the U.S.A. is going to DO the SAME thing.

Oh, good. I can ignore those sections of Revelation because I don't live in the USA.

Um, no. The "USA is the second beast" theme is as wrong as British Israelism.

 

[bud62]

What you describe is definitely not "the only way to the interpret the Bible". It's one way, but in fact, interpretation happens every time you read, before you put any effort into studying. The words on the page are filtered through your understanding of vocabulary, syntax, grammar, and sentence structure.

If you reading the Bible, and you encounter a word unfamiliar to you, the first place you should look to determine the meaning is in the Bible: first in the immediate context, then the rest of the book, the author's other works, if any, and other contemporary writings within Scripture, and of course, all the rest of Scripture. You may need to consider the genre and the historical, cultural, and spiritual contexts, or even the grammatical structure of the word in the original language.

However, unless you are learning the language from the start, you come to Scripture with some idea of what words mean, even before you read a word of Scripture. That colours how you understand the text. Take for example the word, "bottle". If you think of a glass or plastic tube that is sealed at one end, you are correct for a 20th-21st century term, but you are incorrect for a biblical-era term. In the Bible, where the word, "bottle" is used, it means the skin of an animal that has been treated in a particular way and carefully sewn into a container such that it holds liquid. Come with the wrong understanding of the word, and you may end up with the wrong understanding of the passage. If you primarily use an older translation, you are more prone to this kind of error.

Further, there are words that only appear once in Scripture. You can't compare the instance with others because there simply aren't any others. You have to look outside of Scripture to determine what the words mean. The Holy Spirit can enlighten you, but He isn't always going to absolve you of the hard work of investigation and study.

Don't give too much credit to the enemy; we deceive ourselves and allow ourselves to be deceived by others far more commonly. Just know that biblical interpretation is nowhere near as simple as you think.

Yes God AND Satan WORKS in OUR minds, THAT is the REASON WE haft to stick with what THE BIBLE SAYS.
THINKING in OUR own minds, is where all these false DOCTRINES ARE coming from, If we would stick to what the BIBLE says on each subject, we wouldn't HAVE all these false doctrines flying around.

 

[Dino246]

You are right, I should not try to talk you into not slandering other Christians. It always upsets me because you are so knowledgeable, have so much to offer. I am to accept you and take the good of your posts, and there is much good in them.

Where does scripture say we are not subject to "old covenant law"? I think it is clear that we are not to burden Christians with a demand they go to church on a certain day, but I don't see any scripture telling us that if law is in the old testament under the old covenant, we are not to consider it a law of the Lord.

In this discussion in Acts of what laws gentiles were and were not subject to, it is clear that we are not to subject anyone to something like a day we HAVE to go to church. That goes for Saturday or Sunday. But in the Act's discussion, they speak of going to synagogue to hear about Moses, and all the laws they were to obey were ones that allowed them to get past the Pharisees so they could go hear about Moses.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I neither said nor implied that "if law is in the old testament under the old covenant, we are not to consider it a law of the Lord." What I said is that I don't believe that gentile Christians are subject to anything (from the old covenant) beyond those four restrictions.

While the short list of restrictions put on gentiles may have been consistent with those the Pharisees used, the list was given to gentiles who were coming to believe in Christ, not coming to hear Moses. By only listing those four things, the disciples were clearly implying that the other 609-odd ordinances were not binding on non-Jewish Christians. Nobody (in Scripture) ever told the gentile Christians to pay tithes, or celebrate the feasts, or remember the Sabbath, or ask a priest to inspect their scabbed-over wounds for signs of leprosy. In contrast, the various letters in the New Testament explain with adequate clarity that Christians have the law written on their hearts, and that loving the Lord and loving one another fulfilled the requirements of the law. Fulfilled, as in, paid in full, with no further balance outstanding.

 

[bud62]

Oh, good. I can ignore those sections of Revelation because I don't live in the USA.

Um, no. The "USA is the second beast" theme is as wrong as British Israelism.

IT will GO all over the world, all will haft to make the choice to who they will serve or obey

 

[Dino246]

Yes God AND Satan WORKS in OUR minds, THAT is the REASON WE haft to stick with what THE BIBLE SAYS.
THINKING in OUR own minds, is where all these false DOCTRINES ARE coming from, If we would stick to what the BIBLE says on each subject, we wouldn't HAVE all these false doctrines flying around.

What you describe sounds so simple... and is claimed by people on both sides of some very contentious debates. You believe that is what you are doing, and I believe that is what I am doing, and we disagree. At least one of us is wrong.

 

[Dino246]

IT will GO all over the world, all will haft to make the choice to who they will serve or obey

Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:39).

 

[bud62]

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I neither said nor implied that "if law is in the old testament under the old covenant, we are not to consider it a law of the Lord." What I said is that I don't believe that gentile Christians are subject to anything (from the old covenant) beyond those four restrictions.

While the short list of restrictions put on gentiles may have been consistent with those the Pharisees used, the list was given to gentiles who were coming to believe in Christ, not coming to hear Moses. By only listing those four things, the disciples were clearly implying that the other 609-odd ordinances were not binding on non-Jewish Christians. Nobody (in Scripture) ever told the gentile Christians to pay tithes, or celebrate the feasts, or remember the Sabbath, or ask a priest to inspect their scabbed-over wounds for signs of leprosy. In contrast, the various letters in the New Testament explain with adequate clarity that Christians have the law written on their hearts, and that loving the Lord and loving one another fulfilled the requirements of the law. Fulfilled, as in, paid in full, with no further balance outstanding.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[bud62]

Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:39).

but YESUAH said that you haft to abide in HIS LOVE

 

[posthuman]

Isaiah 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [This is talking to ALL MAN even the GENTILES
56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree.
56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; { this is Gentiles
56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

put what you have learned from Exodus 31:13 & Ezekiel 20:12 into use here ((did you read my post, or..?)) and we have Christ testified of in Isaiah, AGAIN. as Christ Himself said: all the scripture testifies of Him. that's the entire purpose of scripture.
the purpose of 'keep the sabbath holy' is 'know that it is the LORD Who sanctifies' which is, 'it's not you that makes yourself righteous, but God who works in you' ((see Galatians 3, again. you did read that chapter, right?))
so -- Isaiah 56 is telling us, the Salvation of God is near to come, and HIS Righteousness, ready to be revealed. that's the subject. guess who 'The Salvation of the LORD' is? guess who 'The Righteousness of God' is? who is to be revealed?
the explanation of the subject - the revelation of Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, Salvation, the Righteousness not of one's self, not by the law ((see Galatians 3 AGAIN)) but by grace through faith ((you've read Romans, right?)) - the explanation of the subject of Isaiah 56 is that not only the Jew who keeps 'it is the LORD who sanctifies, not you' ((which pleases God- verse 4)) but also the Gentile ((v.6)) who keeps 'it is the LORD who sanctifies, not you who sanctifies' will be brought to His holy mountain, given joy, be justified and accepted.
i.e. Salvation to both the Jew and the Gentile by faith, not works: this is the Righteousness of God revealed

this is not a sabbath passage, this is a JESUS OF NAZARETH passage. all of them are that; if you think it's about a righteousness of works, you are not understanding how the Bible was written, why it was written, what it is. and you've got your mind on earthly things, not heavenly ones.

friend, Bud, i'm not arguing against anyone keeping sabbath. what i'm contending is that we talk about Jesus Christ. if sabbath threads don't get us to talk about Christ and see Him testified of in the scripture, then sabbath threads are useless. they only lead us away from Him.
so i give thanks to God that you posted this chapter -- it may not have served your purpose, but it serves His own, and that's good ♥
that is, in fact, sabbath rest. His will is done; He will do all His will

 

[Dino246]

but YESUAH said that you haft to abide in HIS LOVE

YESUAH didn't say you "haft" to do anything.

If you're going to go to the effort of using the Aramaic name for Jesus, please go to the effort of spelling it correctly: YESHUA.

Further, "haft" is not the correct word; the correct word is "have".

"Haft to" is a corruption of "have to" which is often (though lazily) pronounced, "haff to". It's not difficult to write the correct word.

Now, to the meat of your assertion: "you have to abide in His love". You're implying John 15:10, which says, "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love."

The second part of the verse informs the first. Were His Father's commands to Jesus the ones that God gave to Moses on Sinai? No. Jesus, being God Himself, was the Giver of law on Sinai, not the recipient.

In light of that, where Jesus says, "My commands," were they the ones given to Moses on Sinai? That doesn't make sense. So maybe instead of assuming they were, you need to look at the words Jesus Himself spoke to His disciples, as recorded in the Gospels. I'll leave you with that homework.

 

[bud62]

side compartment

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[bud62]

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

These hand writing was the hand writing of Moses that was put in A side compartment, in the ARK of the covenant, the sacrificial laws that was added, And was not GOD'S ten COMMANDMENT laws, that was put inside of the ark, THAT YESUAH wrote with HIS OWN Finger,

 

[bud62]

but YESUAH said that you haft to abide in HIS LOVE

Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

 

[laymen]

If the powers of this world ask us to observe a Sabbath for the common good (environment, health, social and religious reasons), will you keep Sunday holy and worship the pagan sun God, and man made traditions?

No

 

[Blik]

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I neither said nor implied that "if law is in the old testament under the old covenant, we are not to consider it a law of the Lord." What I said is that I don't believe that gentile Christians are subject to anything (from the old covenant) beyond those four restrictions.

While the short list of restrictions put on gentiles may have been consistent with those the Pharisees used, the list was given to gentiles who were coming to believe in Christ, not coming to hear Moses. By only listing those four things, the disciples were clearly implying that the other 609-odd ordinances were not binding on non-Jewish Christians. Nobody (in Scripture) ever told the gentile Christians to pay tithes, or celebrate the feasts, or remember the Sabbath, or ask a priest to inspect their scabbed-over wounds for signs of leprosy. In contrast, the various letters in the New Testament explain with adequate clarity that Christians have the law written on their hearts, and that loving the Lord and loving one another fulfilled the requirements of the law. Fulfilled, as in, paid in full, with no further balance outstanding.

How depressing!!

I sincerely hope you misunderstand the Lord. That we are to simply obey the law of love and accept Christ without a lot of rules to follow is made into a depressing wiping out of the words of the Lord. Under your old testament, and ideas of the covenants, so much scripture is wiped out and told to be invalid, not for humanity but only a tiny piece of humanity: the Hebrews.

 

[bud62]

How depressing!!

I sincerely hope you misunderstand the Lord. That we are to simply obey the law of love and accept Christ without a lot of rules to follow is made into a depressing wiping out of the words of the Lord. Under your old testament, and ideas of the covenants, so much scripture is wiped out and told to be invalid, not for humanity but only a tiny piece of humanity: the Hebrews.

I think And know that saying that we do not haft to KEEP the commandments, they haft to throw a lot more trying to get out of keeping GOD'S commandments

 

[SoulWeaver]

Thanks, I needed that. I've done some studying myself. I'm quite aware that The sabbath day was changed as was Christmas and Easter also. I worship the Lord and, as we believe so shall we be judged If someone innocently overlooks any law or is deceived to do so, they that are in Christ are already forgiven. If a person with knowledge does it, repents, and asks for forgiveness. They also are as if, it never happened. The law givers don't realize that putting someone back under the law is a curse against both of them

Yes. If someone legitimately thinks Sabbath ordinance didn't change, they are obeying according to their conscience. If someone honestly believes that Sabbath ordinance increased into a 24/7 observation and rest, they are obeying according to their conscience. I am of same conviction with you on this, as long we truly do as convicted, it's all that matters. Which is really good news for all of us. I'd feel inwardly rebuked for displaying lack of faith if I started observing Sabbath as a weekday ordinance. I find this hard to explain to believers of different persuasion, I think they don't believe me, but it's the truth. As well as the old man lying dead in Christ (Sabbath) being a thing of constant practice and mental contemplation for many of us. And this is not to say that SDA believers are observing Sabbath out of faith, not at all, I'm just saying this is a deep conviction and neither of us can contradict our conscience... At some point all of us asked God "ok God, what is correct this Sabbath controversy? Help me choose the correct answer." I believe this is correct for both sides, as unbelievable as it may seem to our SDA friends. They often don't believe that people who differently understand Sabbath deeply considered this question, or that we care, or they think "you find it hard to observe one day a week, you're lazy and not devoted" or something like that & this is by NO means an accurate insight as to what are we actually thinking.

 

[calibob]

Yes. If someone legitimately thinks Sabbath ordinance didn't change, they are obeying according to their conscience. If someone honestly believes that Sabbath ordinance increased into a 24/7 observation and rest, they are obeying according to their conscience. I am of same conviction with you on this, as long we truly do as convicted, it's all that matters. Which is really good news for all of us. I'd feel inwardly rebuked for displaying lack of faith if I started observing Sabbath as a weekday ordinance. I find this hard to explain to believers of different persuasion, I think they don't believe me, but it's the truth. As well as the old man lying dead in Christ (Sabbath) being a thing of constant practice and mental contemplation for many of us. And this is not to say that SDA believers are observing Sabbath out of faith, not at all, I'm just saying this is a deep conviction and neither of us can contradict our conscience... At some point all of us asked God "ok God, what is correct this Sabbath controversy? Help me choose the correct answer." I believe this is correct for both sides, as unbelievable as it may seem to our SDA friends. They often don't believe that people who differently understand Sabbath deeply considered this question, or that we care, or they think "you find it hard to observe one day a week, you're lazy and not devoted" or something like that & this is by NO means an accurate insight as to what are we actually thinking.

Thank you. It dosn't get much better than that. I think the sabbath (only) keepers, are actually cheating God out of 6 days a week.