If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[TheDivineWatermark]

The study is in name only for they generally assemble to share their opinions and private fantasies rather than to actually glean truth from God's Word.
It amazes me how really off-road post-protestants have become. There is literally nothing left of the gospel as understood by the Hebrews who wrote the Bible and nothing left of its interpretation by the Reformation thinkers and writers who risked their lives for it.
Instead we are left with a hideous interpretation of future events that are anti-semitic in nature, deprecating in practice and illogical. It's based upon a stubborn refusal to examine scripture in the light of revelation in which it was given. The overwhelming principle applied to 'Bible studies' and forum discussions are doctrine first, scripture second.

I find that a great many people take a mis-step at the following passage (taking them far afield...):

Romans 9 -

25 As he saith also in Osee [/Hosea], I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [corresponding with Hosea 2:23b... speaking of the Gentiles]

26 And it shall come to pass [future tense], that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called [future tense] the children of the living God. [corresponding with Hosea 1:9-11, 2:23a[/ Ezek37:21,13 and Rom11:15[25-29] and Dan12:1-4,10 and Isa26:15-21 and Hos5:14-6:3, etc]... speaking of Israel/the Jews]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I will try to make this short and sweet, rather than dazzle people with many words.
Mathew 24:29-31
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Consider the following:

Matthew 24:29-31 (quoted above) corresponds with:

Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.




[IOW, and in a few words, this is not a "Rapture" context]



____________

[note to the readers: ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of, etc" speaks of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (NOT "our Rapture," per context)]

 

[GaryA]

It is not on this thread.
Anyway I don't think you would like it.

On the contrary - it was very interesting!

Of course, I don't believe the 'pre-trib' part that was "added" to the end of it.

I say "added" because of the complete incongruity between that part and the rest of the video before it.

 

[GaryA]

Next year would give that final push for everyone to push their loved ones to be saved.

But only if they knew with certainty that it would be next year...?

 

[GaryA]

I appologize for participating in fruitless discussion, will ban myself from this thread.

I understand your frustration...

 

[Ruby123]

But only if they knew with certainty that it would be next year...?

Well if things were to get worse next year, I think some of them would be more likely to be persuaded.

 

[ChoirLoft]

I find that a great many people take a mis-step at the following passage (taking them far afield...):

Romans 9 -

25 As he saith also in Osee [/Hosea], I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [corresponding with Hosea 2:23b... speaking of the Gentiles]

26 And it shall come to pass [future tense], that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called [future tense] the children of the living God. [corresponding with Hosea 1:9-11, 2:23a[/ Ezek37:21,13 and Rom11:15[25-29] and Dan12:1-4,10 and Isa26:15-21 and Hos5:14-6:3, etc]... speaking of Israel/the Jews]

When you accuse of taking mis-steps, don't exclude your own limited interpretation.

The ENTIRE PASSAGE in Romans 9, especially verse 6 - 29 speaks to God's sovereign choice to NOT exclude Jews from His merciful salvation.

Post-protestant Christians are devoted to anti-semitic doctrine that relegates Jews to the ash pit instead of examining God's purpose in Holy Writ. God has NOT rejected His people Israel (Romans 11).

Verse 24b mentions gentiles as included in God's salvation. Gentiles are added to the community of Jews (Romans 2:29), while post-protestant ideology falsely states Jews may be added to the church. Big Difference ! Jew hating Christians have deliberately interpreted scripture to something God did not intend. The family of those being saved are Jews, not Christians who insist Jews accept their bogus world view.

It in no way suggests gentiles have some sort of exclusive license to divine hope. Rather its submitted as a sort of after-thought as in, " Oh, by the way, God hasn't forgotten gentiles either." The tiny bit you rest your argument upon does not in any way imply rejection of Jews from God's mercy.

The overwhelming narration of the entire passage is meant to convey the principle of a saved remnant of Israel. If one READS the history of the Old Testament (referred to as the Tanakh by Jews), one is lead to the inescapable conclusion that God does not and will not EVER remove Jews from salvation. God has NEVER abandoned His people Israel as Jew hating gentiles so often insist.

Post-protestant Christians have abandoned the interpretative principles established by the fathers of the Reformation. Instead they have embraced the dogma of the Roman Catholic church, which has been an avowed enemy of Jews and Israel since its inception. The RCC has been guilty of more innocent bloodshed of Jews and gentiles than Muslims could ever hope to attain. It is this abhorrent devotion to RCC anti-semitism I object to.

Post-protestant Christians are most often guilty of establishing a doctrine and then using bits of scripture to back it up than in digging deep into the Biblical narrative to learn what it really means. As a result all sorts of racist and anti-semitic bias is justified by their false religion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

This is completely false! You would be saying that we cannot trust in the word of God and therefore would have no way of knowing what God is really saying. That's bunk! Case in point, we have scripture regarding the mark of the beast and that prophecy is already here and is evolving. We already have people receiving a chip under the skin of the hand which is being used to electronically buy and sell.

By what you are claiming, you would be turning people away from reading the word of God.

You would also be saying that God is not powerful enough to make sure that His word remained for every generation.

I would also mention Jesus prophecy regarding the destruction of the temple, which as you know was fulfilled in 70 ad.

And how about Palms 16:10:

"because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful b one see decay."

Did that not take place?

We can trust in the accuracy of the word of God. By your claim on this post, you would be turning people away from the truth.

I in no way asserted the Bible was wrong and that people should be turned away from it. Quite the opposite.

Instead my argument is that post-protestant Christian INTERPRETATION is wrong and deserving of ejection by thinking people.

When you pervert my meaning you prove my intent.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[ChoirLoft]

I think that you are badly mistaken, sir! I have no hate language at all here on this forum.

Again, along with where you assumed that I said that God has abandoned His people Israel, show me also where you have found any hate language from me in any post.

Quite correct. No hate language stated DIRECTLY.

Quoting the Bible and using anti-semitic interpretations of scripture to justify Jew hating dogma IS hate language.

Please go back and carefully read what I wrote. It flies in the face of accepted post-protestant Christian doctrine. It's not you personally, sir. It's the church as a whole that has betrayed the truths of the church fathers and accepted the norms of THE CHURCH FATHER - his holiness the pope.

The deception is very subtle. One who reads carefully and intelligently and who considers the meaning of these matters will arrive at the same conclusion as stated by the fathers of the Protestant Reformation. Jews are NOT rejected by God. Replacement Theology is a LIE.

Religious dogma and slogans do not pass as truth. They suffice to convince the skeptical, the Sinner, the gullible and those who prefer to play games with God rather than discover truth. (John 3:19)

Racist and anti-semitic rhetoric is most often hidden in the words and writing of those who do not want to overtly identify their true attitudes. Thus are many, who do not share such feelings, led astray.

Ask any Jew or black person if I'm right or wrong.

They will tell you something you many not wish to hear.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Ahwatukee]

I in no way asserted the Bible was wrong and that people should be turned away from it. Quite the opposite.

Instead my argument is that post-protestant Christian INTERPRETATION is wrong and deserving of ejection by thinking people.

When you pervert my meaning you prove my intent.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

So again regarding what you said "post-protestant Christian INTERPRETATION is wrong" are you saying that the word of God is not correct and that we can't trust in it? If yes, then you would be turning people away, because as you said, the interpretation is wrong.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Quite correct. No hate language stated DIRECTLY.

Quoting the Bible and using anti-semitic interpretations of scripture to justify Jew hating dogma IS hate language.

Please go back and carefully read what I wrote. It flies in the face of accepted post-protestant Christian doctrine. It's not you personally, sir. It's the church as a whole that has betrayed the truths of the church fathers and accepted the norms of THE CHURCH FATHER - his holiness the pope.

The deception is very subtle. One who reads carefully and intelligently and who considers the meaning of these matters will arrive at the same conclusion as stated by the fathers of the Protestant Reformation. Jews are NOT rejected by God. Replacement Theology is a LIE.

Religious dogma and slogans do not pass as truth. They suffice to convince the skeptical, the Sinner, the gullible and those who prefer to play games with God rather than discover truth. (John 3:19)

Racist and anti-semitic rhetoric is most often hidden in the words and writing of those who do not want to overtly identify their true attitudes. Thus are many, who do not share such feelings, led astray.

Ask any Jew or black person if I'm right or wrong.

They will tell you something you many not wish to hear.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...[/QUOTE]

I don't need to, I'm not anti-Semitic. The reason why I responded back to you, was because you replied directly to me, as though I was guilty of everything that you listed. When you hit "Reply" it is directly to that person and that post. So, you go back and read what you initially wrote to me and you'll see why I responded as I did.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If one READS the history of the Old Testament (referred to as the Tanakh by Jews), one is lead to the inescapable conclusion that God does not and will not EVER remove Jews from salvation.

Well, that's just weird that you are saying this to me, because, IF you have read *my posts* carefully, *I* have NEVER suggested such a thing.

I've pointed out time and again... "the olive tree" does not represent "salvation" (or "Christ" or "eternal life" etc), for example;

..whereas (for example) both Calvinism and Arminianism misinterpret Romans 9-11, the Arminianists by keeping the entire CONTEXT to be about "individual salvation" (thus how they come up with their FAULTY "lose-your-salvation" doctrine), and the Calvinist by CHANGING the context mid-stream, going from [Subject of] "individual salvation" (in their view) to then being about "nations" (thereby missing the consistent CONTEXT).

God has NEVER abandoned His people Israel as Jew hating gentiles so often insist.

I am always pointing out Rom11:2 - "God hath not cast away His people which He fore-knew ['to know before,' i.e. in OT times, speaking OF ISRAEL, here]."
(Not to mention pointing out v.32, the summation, "For God hath concluded them ALL [Jew and Gentile ALIKE] in unbelief, that He might have mercy UPON ALL [Jew and Gentile alike!]")

However, the understood Q in this SECTION (chpts 9-11) is, "what of the promises made to ISRAEL (now)?? [where are they??]"

... and that God could call the Gentiles if He so willed! [not just (their idea, at the time) "Israel ONLY"]... and He did (so will it!)



[my point is/has been: let's not USURP (from Israel) that which is rightly theirs, as those who like to INSERT themselves (or "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") into passages speaking (instead) OF ISRAEL in particular (or at least, the believing remnant of them, FOLLOWING "our Rapture")]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [to go along with that post ^ ] A post I just made awhile ago in another thread may be of some help to the readers (who are interested):

about the DISTINCTION in Genesis between...

--"SEED [SINGULAR]"; and

--"SEED [PLURAL]"

https://christianchat.com/threads/wake-up-church-the-time-has-come.196183/post-4437558


[one of these TWO is oft-overlooked, and should not be]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ and to go along with that whole "SEED [SINGULAR]" and "SEED [PLURAL]" issue (Genesis)... the following brief blurb by one writer, writing in the context of a related issue (that I've been hitting on only briefly here in this thread)...

[quoting C H Mackintosh]

"[...] yet not a syllable about the real position of the Church--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges!

"And not a word about Israel's future! A complete ignoring, or at best a thorough alienation, of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David! The whole body of prophetic teaching subjected to a system of spiritualizing, falsely so called, whereby Israel is robbed of its proper portion [...]"

--C H Mackintosh

[end quoting]

____________



[back in a minute... to grab the video about "Spiritualizing" and why that's a bad idea... ]



EDIT to add it:

I think it's this one...

Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization by Paul Martin Henebury, PhD - YouTube

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[BenjaminN]

2 Peter 3 (New King James Version)

The Day of the Lord
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[looks like I need to post this here also, from another thread where I just posted it -= ) ]


^ the "IN WHICH" (of that passage) is speaking of a very lengthy duration of time (IN WHICH a GREAT MANY things will transpire!!), and we can see this by: 1) examining both CHPTS of Isa34-35 and not merely ONE VERSE extracted out-from its CONTEXT (34:4); 2) realizing this "IN WHICH" is the same time-period that Acts 17:31 is also referring to (not merely "a singular 24-hr day"); 3) studying just how the word "dissolved" is used elsewhere (and not just in Isa34:4 alone); 4) studying out how the word "elements" is used elsewhere; 5) doing as Peter said... to "BE NOT IGNORANT of THIS ONE THING"; 6) studying the biblical definition and usage of the phrase "the Day of the Lord," which INCLUDES *all THREE* of the following:

--"the 7-yr trib/70th-Wk" upon the earth (the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect), and
--"His Second Coming to the earth" (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect), and
--"His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth" (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)

... ALL THREE of these together make up what is known as "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (it is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day"... and it does not "ARRIVE" to unfold upon the earth ONLY at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... but PRIOR TO THAT point! [when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13 / Rev5:6 / etc... way back at the START of the trib yrs (when He will OPEN SEAL #1)])

 

[BenjaminN]

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, let no one deceive you, that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[BenjaminN]

Wrath from God <> Christian tribulation from an anti-Christian

1 Peter 4 (New King James Version)

Suffering for God’s Glory
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are [e]reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. [f]On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a [g]busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this [h]matter.


17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now

“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

 

[BenjaminN]

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)


The Parable of the Sower Explained

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.